Sorry, but I still diagree. Discussion of Bill Murray movies, does not qualify as health care. And the discussion regarding US healthcare, versus those in other nations has become a political war instead of a rational discussion.
Perhaps the reason this subject has received so much feedback is because there is nothing that will rile people up more than religion or politics or who has the better country, not the fact that it is doing anything to further our knowledge of healthcare.
Just my opinion.
Angry
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Popinka
Janelle,
Feel free not to participate, you are certainly not obliged to read nor to participate in this thread. My original post was in relation to a flood of emotions and thoughts which came on soon after being diagnosed with sleep apnea (and realizing how devastating and underdiagnosed and treated it is). The discussion evolved from there. Admitedly, some of the posts were only tengentally related to sleep apnea, but so what? Perhaps sleep deprivation has made you cencerous.
Feel free not to participate, you are certainly not obliged to read nor to participate in this thread. My original post was in relation to a flood of emotions and thoughts which came on soon after being diagnosed with sleep apnea (and realizing how devastating and underdiagnosed and treated it is). The discussion evolved from there. Admitedly, some of the posts were only tengentally related to sleep apnea, but so what? Perhaps sleep deprivation has made you cencerous.
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Popinka
Wader,
Quoting Rand, why am I not suprised! In this individualist schema, how do you account for chance and just plain bad luck. What about when, through no fault of their own someone is unceremoniously downsized, falls ill or faces a similar blameless setback? Do you rely on Charity and the goodwill of others ---corporate donations are a fraction of what they were a century a go, and the middle class no longer has any disposible income after fixed expenses to donate....
Quoting Rand, why am I not suprised! In this individualist schema, how do you account for chance and just plain bad luck. What about when, through no fault of their own someone is unceremoniously downsized, falls ill or faces a similar blameless setback? Do you rely on Charity and the goodwill of others ---corporate donations are a fraction of what they were a century a go, and the middle class no longer has any disposible income after fixed expenses to donate....
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forumadmin
- Site Admin
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Regarding This Thread
Howdy cpap-talkers,
When a fundamental tenet of government is to provide security to those they govern, and a forum is dedicated to discussing a major threat to that security in the form of a health problem, then it's only a matter of time until politics enter into the conversation.
When it comes to health care, lofty social theories tend to apply directly to individuals. A lack of health care, or access to it, can understandably provoke strong emotions; as can a perception that those who can pay more into a system must do so. I applaud all of your for keeping the dialog articulate and civil. While this is a hard topic, it's one that will continue to directly affect individuals daily lives for years to come.
What better place than the internet, the marketplace of ideas, to come together and take a hard look at how to solve these problems?
When a fundamental tenet of government is to provide security to those they govern, and a forum is dedicated to discussing a major threat to that security in the form of a health problem, then it's only a matter of time until politics enter into the conversation.
When it comes to health care, lofty social theories tend to apply directly to individuals. A lack of health care, or access to it, can understandably provoke strong emotions; as can a perception that those who can pay more into a system must do so. I applaud all of your for keeping the dialog articulate and civil. While this is a hard topic, it's one that will continue to directly affect individuals daily lives for years to come.
What better place than the internet, the marketplace of ideas, to come together and take a hard look at how to solve these problems?
Last edited by forumadmin on Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bonehead
Bill Murry movies My favorite is Stripes. The Aunt Jamima treatment. Is that politically correct for this forum. Oh yes butt this is a sleep apnea board. It doesnt have to be boring. Lets all put our feelings aside and enjoy the fact that we're all here to help..I'm from the government and i'm here to help. Now thats scary. LOL
Bonehead
Bonehead
(laughs) Yes, I suspected you were a Libertarian. You can call me a pinko Socialist, and I can call you a purple Libertarian, and it won't achieve a single thing, of course. Not that I'm acutally a Socialist, but I don't automatically consider "socialist" to be a dirty word.wading thru the muck! wrote:RubyKat,
Here in the United States of America our government was founded on, among other things, the tenet of "individual liberty" That is the belief that Society is most benefited when the rights of the individual are protected. A socialized health system or any socialist endevour for that matter can only be accomplished by trampling on the rights of the individual to own and hold property gained of their own efforts.
"Any socialist endevour"? Society is a socialist endevour.
My initial assessment is confirmed: there is no point in discussing it with you, as we have no common ground whatsoever.
The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep. (W. C. Fields)
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wading thru the muck!
- Posts: 2799
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:42 am
forumadmin said:
I applaud all of you for keeping the dialog articulate and civil.
RubyKat,
After the forumadmin just made this comment you chose to reduce the discussion to name calling. "pinko Socialist" and "purple Libertarian" are your terms, not mine.
If you feel, as you say "there is no point in discussing it" then please refrain from participating in the discussion. If you change your mind and feel you can offer some meaningful comments, please do.
I applaud all of you for keeping the dialog articulate and civil.
RubyKat,
After the forumadmin just made this comment you chose to reduce the discussion to name calling. "pinko Socialist" and "purple Libertarian" are your terms, not mine.
If you feel, as you say "there is no point in discussing it" then please refrain from participating in the discussion. If you change your mind and feel you can offer some meaningful comments, please do.
Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!
My apologies. You misunderstood what I meant. What I meant is that this kind of thing tends to degenerate into name-calling, NOT that either of us were actually name-calling.
As for constructive suggestions, is there any kind of lobby-group that exists or could be formed, to bring the attention of govt, insurance, and health professionals the kind of problems that OSA sufferers are suffering? So that something could actually be done about it?
As for constructive suggestions, is there any kind of lobby-group that exists or could be formed, to bring the attention of govt, insurance, and health professionals the kind of problems that OSA sufferers are suffering? So that something could actually be done about it?
The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep. (W. C. Fields)
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wading thru the muck!
- Posts: 2799
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:42 am
Popinka,
As the chart below shows charitable giving as a % of GDP has not decreased, as you say, but have essentially remained flat. If you add the 50% increase (as a % of GDP) in government social welfare programs over the same period you can see that total spending on those less fortunate is and has been increasing steadily. Seeing that Government has seen fit to "mandate" spending in these areas, perhaps the citizens as a whole have been dis-inclined to entend their charitable giving.
At the risk of being chided for quoting Ms. Rand again:
When "the common good" of a society is regarded as something apart from and superior to the individual good of its members, it means that the good of some men takes precedence over the good of others, with those others consigned to the status of sacrificial animals.
-- Ayn Rand, "What is Capitalism?" Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
Her words are so relevant to the discussion.
As the chart below shows charitable giving as a % of GDP has not decreased, as you say, but have essentially remained flat. If you add the 50% increase (as a % of GDP) in government social welfare programs over the same period you can see that total spending on those less fortunate is and has been increasing steadily. Seeing that Government has seen fit to "mandate" spending in these areas, perhaps the citizens as a whole have been dis-inclined to entend their charitable giving.
At the risk of being chided for quoting Ms. Rand again:
When "the common good" of a society is regarded as something apart from and superior to the individual good of its members, it means that the good of some men takes precedence over the good of others, with those others consigned to the status of sacrificial animals.
-- Ayn Rand, "What is Capitalism?" Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
Her words are so relevant to the discussion.
Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!
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Waverly
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wading thru the muck!
- Posts: 2799
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:42 am
RubyKat said:
My apologies. You misunderstood what I meant. What I meant is that this kind of thing tends to degenerate into name-calling, NOT that either of us were actually name-calling.
My apologies, if I misunderstood.
RubyKat also said:
As for constructive suggestions, is there any kind of lobby-group that exists or could be formed, to bring the attention of govt, insurance, and health professionals the kind of problems that OSA sufferers are suffering? So that something could actually be done about it?
This public forum is a great place to bring attention to the plight of OSA sufferers and cpap.com is a great business to patronize in reward of their superior and efficient dispensing of cpap equipment.
My apologies. You misunderstood what I meant. What I meant is that this kind of thing tends to degenerate into name-calling, NOT that either of us were actually name-calling.
My apologies, if I misunderstood.
RubyKat also said:
As for constructive suggestions, is there any kind of lobby-group that exists or could be formed, to bring the attention of govt, insurance, and health professionals the kind of problems that OSA sufferers are suffering? So that something could actually be done about it?
This public forum is a great place to bring attention to the plight of OSA sufferers and cpap.com is a great business to patronize in reward of their superior and efficient dispensing of cpap equipment.
Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!