CPAP Basics - 3

I haven't seen the book, nor its contents, so this isn't a comment about that book in particular.

IMO, if a person can take a large body of information, distill from it the most important issues (including common problems and best solutions), summarize, organize, and consolidate that information in a concise manner so that it's intelligible and relevant to a large portion of the interested population, and make that available to them at a reasonable price, that is not a problem and is actually helpful. If the person spent time and energy putting the book together and want to charge a reasonable fee, that's fine. Some people would rather get their information from one source than spend the time and cognitive energy to sift through countless threads here. It can be overwhelming and labor intensive to do that and some people might prefer not to. (Of course there are benefits to participating in a forum where people give you feedback, etc., but that's irrelevant.)

I am not particularly troubled by knowledge that certain posters have a service or product to sell (including the owners of this forum), as long as they don't make false claims. I'm sure that Dr. Parks has gotten business from posting on this forum, as has Dr. Krakow, Pad-a-Cheek, the Ultimate Chinstrap guy, the Pap Cap/Pur Sleep guy, Pap Tap, etc. I have no issue with that and I actually appreciate knowing that I'm not missing out on hearing of available products and services that are relevant to me.

Obviously if the information is false, misleading, or otherwise harmful (same with products), I would take issue with that on a case-by-case basis.

SleepingUgly wrote:I haven't seen the book, nor its contents, so this isn't a comment about that book in particular.

IMO, if a person can take a large body of information, distill from it the most important issues (including common problems and best solutions), summarize, organize, and consolidate that information in a concise manner so that it's intelligible and relevant to a large portion of the interested population, and make that available to them at a reasonable price, that is not a problem and is actually helpful. If the person spent time and energy putting the book together and want to charge a reasonable fee, that's fine. Some people would rather get their information from one source than spend the time and cognitive energy to sift through countless threads here. It can be overwhelming and labor intensive to do that and some people might prefer not to. (Of course there are benefits to participating in a forum where people give you feedback, etc., but that's irrelevant.)

I am not particularly troubled by knowledge that certain posters have a service or product to sell (including the owners of this forum), as long as they don't make false claims. I'm sure that Dr. Parks has gotten business from posting on this forum, as has Dr. Krakow, Pad-a-Cheek, the Ultimate Chinstrap guy, the Pap Cap/Pur Sleep guy, Pap Tap, etc. I have no issue with that and I actually appreciate knowing that I'm not missing out on hearing of available products and services that are relevant to me.

Obviously if the information is false, misleading, or otherwise harmful (same with products), I would take issue with that on a case-by-case basis.

So you have no problem with violation of this section of the agreement every time he posts?

From cpap.com user agreement
While using CPAPtalk.com, you will not:
"distribute or post, email or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, junk mail, spam, chain letters, or pyramid schemes;"

I have to say one thing I like about the forum is there is no advertising. Except now for this which is there everytime what's his name posts,

Author of the book "Sleep Well & Feel Great with CPAP, A definitive guide"
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/288866
For CPAPTalk - enter code YV76Q at check out for 50% off.
All the basic info for about the same price as a cup of coffee!

(Thanks Pugsy)

Is it "advertising" only because he charges a fee for his book? Or would it be considered "advertising" even if it were free?

Would it be advertising if his byline said "author of such and such book" and a link to a webpage and didn't mention cost in the byline?

Advertising, noun,
The injection of image into an item the utility of which is too ineffectual to create a customer base.

I just read a bunch of definitions of "advertising" and it doesn't seem that getting paid is necessary for it to be "advertising". For example, I could advertise a new support group started in an area, without there being a presumption that people have to pay to participate.

What's the question again?

Oh yeah:

So you have no problem with violation of this section of the agreement every time he posts?

From cpap.com user agreement
While using CPAPtalk.com, you will not:
"distribute or post, email or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, junk mail, spam, chain letters, or pyramid schemes;"

No, it doesn't bother me personally that he has these comments in his byline:

Author of the book "Sleep Well & Feel Great with CPAP, A definitive guide"
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/288866
For CPAPTalk - enter code YV76Q at check out for 50% off.
All the basic info for about the same price as a cup of coffee!

I think the only way it goes beyond what others have in their byline is perhaps the part about the discount to cpaptalk members. Others have links to blogs and web pages, where they either provide free or paid information/products. That doesn't bother me either.

Honestly, I'm much more bothered by lack of access to information for most of the population, and by the dissemination of wrong information. But it's not my forum, and I didn't write up that agreement.

Let's say I wrote a book for kids about OSA (and someone did, and posted here at one point). Would it be a problem if I noted that in my byline? If the information was accurate and useful to the kids, wouldn't I be doing a service to this community by letting them know it's available? In fact, while technically a violation of the agreement, wouldn't many, many people here appreciate it if I started a thread notifying them that I've written and published such a book?

I have no problem with Karen (Pad-a-cheek).
Jim's book is cpap-related, and he knows there will be reviews.
(as there are with everyone posting a business connection to cpap.)
I don't know if anyone has panned Mike Moran, though. (too busy giggling)

When Jim first posted on the forum I went to the website and looked at his book. I posted my comments about the ad without buying the book.

Jim then posted a 50% off code that brought the book to $5. My daughter spends that at Starbucks, I felt it was worth risking.

My review is posted elsewhere on the forum (check my posts, it shouldn't be hard to find).

Bottom line, as a CPAP newbie (1 month on the machine, 1 month of research before that) I feel that the book didn't teach much that I hadn't already learned here, but if a friend was going on CPAP and asked for advice I'd point him to the book first, then here. The book boils down much of the knowledge here into one place, with no hijacked threads, no side discussions, no repeated questions, etc. You can read the book in an hour. It took me weeks to sift that information from the forums. After reading the book and a few select posts here (especially the blog post on dealing with a DME, since Jim's book is written from a DME perspective) they should be ready to start treatment with a higher chance of success than just the forum.

But once they have read the above, the forum is the right place to be for the conversations, differing opinions, answers to questions, and personal support. And of course Pugsy.

Hopefully by being here Jim will realize that most DME's (including the one I fired yesterday) are scumbags and his readers need to be aware of that and how to deal with them. That's the number one thing I think he needs in the next book.

SleepWellCPAP wrote: Certainly look forward to any comments or feedback or suggestions.
Jim

You could have disclosed the fine print better.

No Rx required.
Limited time offer, call now to ensure prompt delivery.
Not valid w/any other offers or coupons.
Shipping/handling fee refundable only for defective product.
Returns only accepted w/prior authorization code.
Applicable local taxes apply.
One per customer.
This product is meant for educational purposes only.
Reproduction strictly prohibited.
Text may contain material some readers may find objectionable.
Allow four to six weeks for delivery.
Terms are subject to change without notice.
Articles are ribbed for your pleasure.
Breaking seal constitutes acceptance of agreement.
User assumes full liabilities.
Not liable for damages due to use or misuse.
First pull up, then pull down.
No Canadian coins.
No animals were used to test the content of these pages.
Other restrictions may apply.
Colors may, in time, fade.
If condition persists, consult your physician.
Sealed for your protection, do not use if the safety seal is broken.
Avoid contact with mucous membranes.
This supersedes all previous notices unless indicated otherwise

I have not read your book Jim, but I hope - if it isn't already mentioned - that in the next edition there will be advice (emphasized/highlighted) to seek support outside of professional circles such as sleep apnea forums and to join one so as to learn more and be able to ask questions etc. This will no doubt bring the wrath of fellow DMEs, etc upon you Jim - but I think you sound as if you really want to help CPAP users to continue their therapy and get the help and advice they need, and you will be saving lives by pointing people here. You may be involved in patients initiation into the CPAP world and in various stages of their treatment, but forums like this are here for people at all times, and many CPAP users (me being one) will tell you that we are still continuing CPAP treatment because of finding this forum or such like help, outside of the sleep professionals circles. I am not discounting the medical worlds contribution one bit, but protecting ones livelihood can bring out various forms of selfishness that we daily read about here on cpaptalk.

Stormynights wrote:

jwerley wrote:Pugsy....IMO you have written many books.....they are all over this forum. I have learned more from your posts than anyone who has published and sold a book. There is so much caring and heart along with all of your knowledge. All those words ( countum up) not asking for anything in return.

I love you!
Janice

Well said.

Obviously!!!

Pugsy: Posts: 17044 Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 8:31 am

Stormynights wrote:I wish Pugsy would write a book.

I wish that others would come along side Pugsy to work with her to produce many educational materials. Sice we are all getting away from print and toward full multimedia - we need presentation style materials (active power point presentations if you will), videos, approaches which cover all learning styles.

When you are hurt by OSA learning is not an easy thing. I hope we find good ways to make it easier!

Pugsy wrote:From cpap.com user agreement
While using CPAPtalk.com, you will not:
"distribute or post, email or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, junk mail, spam, chain letters, or pyramid schemes;"

If members feel like the link is a violation of policy...contact Carolyn.
Technically the book link is a violation but in the past exceptions have been made to the rule.
It's the Goodman's forum and their sandbox so they get to decide what they want to allow or make exceptions on. We play by their rules.
If anyone is wondering...I did contact Carolyn and if you want to know what she told me....contact her if you don't feel like the link should be there.
I have a problem with the link but that's my opinion and I have a right to have it just like others have a right to have a different opinion.

Pugsy, thanks for speaking out about this and for the information about contacting Carolyn.

It is true that we have some forum members who also sell cpap equipment and supplies and a few of these members do have links in their signature box -- but when I compare the way people like Karen (PadACheek) and STL Mark, for example, conduct themselves on the forum, to me there is a difference with SWCpap. Mollette and Den called it -- it's the exploitation factor. I understand that for some people the fact that SWCpap has posted some things that others have found helpful makes his self-promotion here acceptable. To me his use of the forum for personal/professional gain is just too glaring and stands in sharp contrast to the spirit of the forum, which is people freely sharing, helping and supporting one another.

kaiasgram wrote: it's the exploitation factor... To me his use of the forum for personal/professional gain is just too glaring and stands in sharp contrast to the spirit of the forum, which is people freely sharing, helping and supporting one another.

I haven't read enough of his posts to agree or disagree personally with your (valid) opinion above. I don't see his byline, in and of itself, to be substantially different than others' such that theirs would pass the user agreement clause I was asked about, and his would not. But I am not a fan of exploitation (IF that's what's happening here), whether or not someone is violating the no advertising rule.

On the other hand, I don't think that all the doctors that post here and elsewhere on the internet (past and present) are doing it purely out of the goodness of their hearts, either. They know they will get business from it, and they do.

Hello All,

I guess I'm confused. I thought the objective of this web log was to help people use their CPAP equipment.

Though I'll have to admit, my first set up was a disaster. That was over 10 years ago, and since that time I have learned some things that are very important to pass along, especially to new users.

Regretfully, my objective for starting this topic has somehow evolved into a diatribe that I believe contrasts with this website's purpose.

Allow me to elaborate. One of the posts suggests Pugsy write a book. By the way, I would wholeheartedly agree with that based on just the limited number of her posts I have read. She is truly a tremendous source of information. What if she then put a link to her work? Would it be worth a few dollars? My goodness yes. Think of all the time and headache she would save people. My book isn't perfect, I'll keep trying to make it that way though, and maybe some folks will be able to use their equipment successfully because of it.

Carpetbagger? Please Mollete, I was born in Louisana and by the way I'm in the hole on this project over $500. My objective has always been to offer the book for free as soon as expenses were covered. That comment really brushed my hair the wrong way.

Always good to hear everyone's feedback though. If having a link to a book that might help people is offensive to you, please don't hesitate to let me know.
Jim