Angry

Hi Wading,
It's always great to hear your opinion

SEVERAL VERY INTERESTING POINTS HAVE BEEN MADE HERE I PERSONALY THINK THE NHS IS A WONDERFULL THING, AS FOR WAITING TIMES, YES THERE HAVE BEEN PERIODS WHEN THE WAITS WERE QUITE LONG, BUT THINGS ARE IMPROVING. I WAS ABOUT 3 MONTHS FROM THE FIRST REFURAL, ON TO SLEEP TESTS ONTO CONSULTATION & THEN GETTING MY MACHINE. BUT IF I HAD BEEN AN EMERGANCY MY TREATMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN INSTANT, I KNOW THAT FOR FACT BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE. ALSO THE HOMELESS, THE POOR, THE UNEMPLOYED, THE FACTORY WORKER, THROUGH TO LAWYERS, WHOM EVER, ALL GET THE SAME TREATMENT. YOUR NOT TURNED AWAY AT THE DOOR BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO INSURANCE, BECAUSE YOUR TO ILL OR DISABLED TO QUALIFY FOR INSURANCE COVER. IF I'M NOT WELL, I CAN GO TODAY & BE SEEN BY A DOCTOR, I DON'T HAVE TO THINK CAN I AFFORD IT THIS MONTH. AS ONE OF THE REPLYERS SAID SHE HAD'NT SEEN HER DOCTOR FOR 15 MONTHS, BECAUSE SHE CAN'T AFFORD IT. WITH REGARD TO DENTIST, YES THERE AS BEEN A PROBLEM, BUT THAT IS BEING ADDRESSED, MORE DENTISTS ARE BEING EMPLOYED, SO THAT WILL HOPEFULLY BE RESOLVED. BUT YOU WILL BE SEEN IF YOU REQIRE URGENT TREATMENT, AND IN YOUR OWN TOWN. I ALSO CANNOT BELIEVE THAT ANYONE IN THE UK AS TO DRIVE HUNDREDS OF MILES TO FIND AN NHS DENIST, (YOU'D END UP IN FRANCE OR SOMEWHERE SIMALAR) ITS HONESTLY NOT THAT BAD...
ALSO AS REGARDS TO FIRE, AMBULANCE OR WHATEVER GOING TO PLACES & FEELING UNDER THREAT, AS'NT EVERY COUNTRY GOT ITS ROUGH AREAS BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY , EVERYONE WHATEVER THEIR FINANCIAL SITUATION MAY BE, WHATEVER THEIR EMPLOYMENT STATUS MAY BE, OR THEIR COLOUR OR CREED, THEY WILL BE SEEN, NO ONE IS EVER TURNED AWAY PAYMENT, YES IT COSTS, YES EACH WORKING PERSON PAYS INTO THE NHS, BUT WHO KNOWS WHEN IT WILL BE THEIR TURN TO USE IT TURN TO USE IT
THE STATEMENT WAS MADE, YOU CAN'T EXPECT EVERYONE ELSE TO DIP INTO THEIR PAY DOCKET TO PAY FOR YOUR TREATMENT. WELL THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS, EVERY BODY PAYS IN WHEN THEIR FIT & ABLE, SO THAT THE SYSTEM IS THERE WHEN , YOU, THEY, OR I NEED TO USE IT. DON'T FORGET ALSO THAT IF ANYONE FROM ANY COUNTY NEEDED MEDICAL TREATMENT THEY WOULD GET IT, OK YOU MAY BE ASKED PAYBACK THE COSTS FROM YOUR INSURANCE, BUT IF YOU DID'NT HAVE INSURANCE YOU WOULD'NT BE TURNED AWAY, "SORRY MATE NO INSURANCE, GO AWAY & DIE, OR WE'LL HAVE TO SEE YOU PAPERWORK BEFORE WE RESUSITATE YOU"
GET THE POINT
SORRY IF I'VE RUFFLED A FEW FEATHERS, BUT I KNOW THAT I FOR ONE WOULD NOT GET MEDICAL INSURANCE, TO MANY PROBLEMS,TO MUCH OF A RISK. BUT I HAVE PAID INTO THE SYSTEM WHEN I WAS WELL ENOUGH TO WORK, MY HUSBAND PAYS IN, MY SON PAYS IN, MY DAUGHTER PAYS IN. PERSONALLY IF SOMEONE NEEDED MEDICAL ATTENTION & COULD NOT GET IT , IF I HAD THE FANANTIAL ABILITY, I WOULD WILLINGLY CONTREBUTE TO HELP THEM, I COULD'NT NOT YES AS WELL PETRAL IS EXPESIVE HERE, BUT I PERSONALLY WOULD RATHER LIVE SOMEWHERE THAT, YES CONTRIBUTIONS COST, THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD TO PAY, BUT EVERY BODY, EVERYBODY IS TREATED, NO EXCEPTIONS TO ME THAT IS A FAIR & JUST SOCIETY,. I KNOW THAT WHEN I GO TO THE HOSPITAL I GET THE TREATMENT THAT IS RIGHT & BEST FOR ME, NOT THE BEST FOR THE DOCTORS POCKET...
AS I SAID SORRY IF I HAVE RUFFLED A FEW FEATHERS, BUT I FEEL SO STRONLY ABOUT IT & FEEL TOTALLY DISGUSTED THAT THE OTHER REPLYER HAS'NT SEEN A DOCTOR IN 15 MONTHS BECAUSE OF FINACIAL CERCUMSTANCE. DOES THAT NOT MAKE US FEEL ASHAMED

Thanks for all the great posts. Jean I tend to agree with you...to my mind we are all human beings and all connected. I feel that the taxes I pay in Canada (very high) are an appropriate pay back to the society I profit from and do not think that anyone has absolute entitlement without responsibility. While there are abuses in a more "socialist" systems such as the UK and Canada, I think they are far less than many aggregious corporate abuses which are far more costly to society as a whole (another topic).

Problem in Canada is that we have a bad combination --- limitless pockets of government (which Wader rightly points out is actually tax payer's money) paired with companies. Companies naturally try to maximize profits and are entitled to a reasonable profit margin. However, when they are abusing this gov't (to my mind) has an obligation to govern --- to maximize good for the maximum number of people --- not just a few powerful lobbies.

Complex issues and bound to be different opinions. I think we all probably want the same thing (for everyone to get treatment), but just may have different ideas how to get there.

popinka wrote:...to my mind we are all human beings and all connected. I feel that the taxes I pay in Canada (very high) are an appropriate pay back to the society I profit from and do not think that anyone has absolute entitlement without responsibility.

As soon as "society" sits in my chair 12 hours a day and get's my work done I'll be willing to pay "it" back. No one profits from society, society profits from productive people that do not drag it down. The only responsibilty we all have is to provide for ourselves and our family as best we can and then hope that the compassion of others fills the gaps. We have no right to "demand" that others pay our way. As soon as productive people are "forced" to carry the load of others is when society begins to deteriorate.

To bring things back on topic, this is why we are on this forum. To learn how to care for ourselves. One can either take the initiative and learn through the compassionate help of others on the forum or you can claim that others are responsible to carry your burden. Each of us has to decide which it will be.

HI Popinka:
I met with my pulm. dr. on thurs. who gave me about 10 mins, and that was writing out the scrip and all. I met with the RT who assurred me that they get ''nothing'' from the DME (by now I'm' lol") thinking wait till I tell the msg board this. I am now ''in the loop'' for my cpap machine,and must use the one they recommend. They said well you can use who you want, but if ou need adjustments, they'll come out. (let's just see). And that they have 5 reps in the northern NJ area where I live. Now I don't know where anyone else lives, but if you think 5 reps for this metropolitan area, not really accurate. She told me let the DME handle my insurance company (ok by me), as they know how to ''code it to make it go thru easier'' than if I did it, but that if I wanted to order it etc. I was free too. they were very nice, (of course, they get a cut from the dme) and they were most agreeable to having me get copies of both my studies. Found out I had about 80 episodes at the diagnostic study, 4 of which were central, the rest OSA.

Good question is this, do most people have both types of apneas? The dr. and RT said that it was common to see a few central apnea's, but not too many. Mine is strictly OSA.

I am calling the DME on Monday, as I have severe bronchitis stemming from a bad sinus infection from the titration study. So I'll see wht next wk brings when I sit on the DME to let's get this ordering process going. They will come to the home and fit me with all kinds of masks and the RT said, not to be alarmed, but that many people are NON COMPLIANT, and come back in a year to see the pulmonary doctor again. How about that?

Bottom line is Popinka, I hear you on insurance, doctors, frustrations, miscues, misdiagnoses from multiple sources. Try being a woman and throwing in the male doctor looking at a female menopausal patient, and you got the stare of "I"M LOOKING AT YOU BUT NOT LISTENING".......we can all relate. Female doc's who are worse and say eat 1000 calories and exercise for 2 hours a day. So we've all heard the same stories. they must teach this at all med schools world wide, eh?

Let me know how you're doing with your treatment. Sometimes we have to go along to get along.

Popinka wrote:Permit me to vent for a few lines.

I woke up this morning (slightly more refreshed again) angry. Why did my family doctor not alert me to the fact that I may have sleep apnea when I repeatedly went to his office complaining of fatigue. Nor did my psychiatrist to whom I complained of my constant fatigue despite being a basically happy person. They went to medical school and sleep apnea had been around for several decades...I am very overweight and was asking for energizing drugs (should have been a big clue) are they not obliged to keep themselves abreast of serious illnesses that might effect their patients?

I slept my way through most of undergrad and much of law school. I missed out on so many social/ life opportunities b/c I was too tired to live. I am only 29 and can only imagine what it must be like to be diagnosed with life long apnea much later in life. It makes me very said. I was

And what is it with the damnd insurance companies and gov't funding. It is not as though sleep apnea is not a clinically verifiable ailment. We are not asking for them to pay for special crystals to aid in psychic healing! (Irony is that I work in insurance litigation for insurance companies --don't hate me guys --its a job!). Several thousands of dollars to treat this is ridiculous (in Ontario I will be forced to pay $1200.00 in addition to the gov't funded portion of the CPAP for an obligatory service package, utter usurous Bul&&*%$^ as far as I am concerned). I hate that profit motives are getting the way of people's treatment and feel that gov't should intervene --either through adequate funding of trxt or through regulation. I am lucky that my husband and I both have private insurance and have highly paying jobs. What if we were not so fortunate (particularly if sleep apnea prevented you from functioning at work, and economic hardship was a predictable outcome of the disease). And talk about false economies...at 29 you can pay for my CPAP or at 49 you can take care of me after a stroke. Absolutely wrong.

Sorry, don't mean to be so negative and do feel blessed that I got my diagnosis sooner rather than later. The gravity of what I have lost and what I may be up against is starting to set in now.

Sorry "wading through", it's attitudes like yours that bring this country down. I certainly don't believe in a "hand out", but what about a working family like my own who are not offered health insurance through work & are at the mercy of insurance companies that charge anywhere from $600.00+ a month for insurance? That is almost a half of a months pay for us. This country (the U.S.) has a huge "rich" population! There are millionares running around who could donate a portion of their vast fortunes to help the ones of us stuck in the middle between Medicaid & private insurance. I won't get started on the bureaucratic waste going on in this country (which YOU are paying for & which could be funding health care for all citizens), but I'd rather see my money (if I had it), go to help someone get needed medical help. In America you cannot get good medical care unless you have money or are destitute. That's a shame!

EMM, FEW MORE INTERESTING COMMENTS.
WELL IF THE FIRST THOUGHT IN MY HEAD WAS," LOOK AFTER MYSELF& MY FAMILY & BASICALLY, EVERYONE ELSE CAN JUST SORT THEMSELVES OUT & IF THEY CAN'T , TOUGH LUCK",. ITS THAT KIND OF ATITUDE THAT DOES'NT HELP, THE POOR, THE NEEDY, THE SICK & DISABLED. MY GOD DON'T WE ALL HAVE A RESPOSABILITY TO EACH OTHER SOMEONE MENTIONED INDIA, WELL I'M GOING TO MENTION AFRICA. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE COUNTLESS MILLIONS DYING THERE EVERY YEAR FROM STARVATION., YET THERE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH FOOD IN THIS WORLD TO FEED US ALL (VERY WELL). BUT AGAIN THE ONES THAT COULD HELP THEM DONT, (ITS NOT COST EFFECTIVE) OR SOME OTHER LAIM EXCUSE. YOU KNOW ITS ALL VERY WELL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE MOST, CLOSE THEIR EYES TO THE NEEDS OF OTHERS, LESS FURTUNATE. MY POINT IS, IF THE PEOPLE WHO CAN CONTRIBUTE, DID SO WITHOUT GRUMBLING, THEN THE LIVES OF THE NOT SO WELL OFF WOULD BE A LOT BETTER. IF PEOPLE HAVE THE ATITUDE, LOOK AFTER NO 1 & FAMILY & THE REST MUST DO THE SAME. WELL WHO KNOWS WHATS AROUND THE CORNER, FOR ANY OF US, BUT I ALSO KNOW THIS, THE HIGHER YOU RISE, THE FURTHER YOU HAVE TO FALL
THERE WOULD BE A LOT LESS POVERTY & MISERY IN THIS WORLD,IF PEOPLE JUST OCCATIONALLY THOUGHT OF OTHERS BEFORE THEMSELVES.
I KNOW TO A CERTAIN EXTENT WE ALL TEND TO BE A LITTLE SELFISH FROM TIME TO TIME. BUT IF WE WERE LESS MONEY ORENTATED A LITTLE MORE PEOPLE ORENTATED, WOULD'NT THE WHOLE WORLD & NOT ONLY THE AVAILABILITY OF HEALTH CARE, BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE TO BE:?:
I KNOW ONE THING FOR SURE, WHEN I DID & WHEN I WILL BE ABLE TO AGAIN CONTRIBUTE, THEN I WOULD,NT FOR ONE MINUET LIKE TO THINK THAT I WOULD BEGRUDGE ANYBODY THE USE OF THE SERVICES, AT MY EXPENCE WE ALL LIVE IN THIS WORLD, THE WEST COULD MAKE THINGS SO MUCH BETTER FOR THE LIVES OF THE POVERTY STRICKEN OUT THERE, IF WE ONLY THINK & TRUELY CARE ABOUT OTHERS A LITTLE MORE

Sorry, but why do some in the rest of the world think they have the right to grab into the pockets of those of us in "the West". I like how you added "Tough Luck" to the end of my statement. I never said that. I have compassion for those in need but I also have my family including my five kids to feed and clothe and educate. I work way more than I should and already spend too little time with my kids. Should I work more to pay for some family in Africa as you suggest. I'm willing to have my US tax dollors go to help those in Africa become self-sufficient but I'm not able to take the food off my kids plates to send to someone else. I would like to know who made the law stating I'm obligated to do so. I also would like to know who gets to decide who is able to contribute and who is not. They tried your idea in the Soviet Union. All for one one for all, YA! all it did was make everbody unproductive and living in poverty. Tell the people living in East Germany that they'll have to go back to how it was before the fall of the Berlin wall.

Sorry to rant, but even though that logic sounds idilic, it does not work and has been proven not to work over and over.

One last thing...who are you to judge who truely cares about others or not. I don't think you have a clue.

I was in UK from 1977 to 1981. I found the NHS doctors, dentists and optometrists to be of lowest standards and adequacy. I also found out that those who could afford it would go to private doctors. I wonder if it's true today. All the best doctors in "Harley Street" in London are private doctors. People from all over the world go to these doctors for all kind of treatments.
I also know that in US, this is true to a lesser extent. But with my experience with psychiatists, it has defenitely been true. You would not believe on how quickly they prescribe you sleep and psychiatric medications.

Sorry, the previous post was mine.
Cheers

Someone up thread mentioned that their wait from referral through getting their CPAP machine through their country's national health service. That's about what it took me through my private insurance. From first referral, it took several weeks to get an appointment with a sleep disorders specialist. It then took two weeks to get into the sleep clinic. It then took several more weeks for the follow up appointment. This was followed by a titration study and then I finally got my machine.

Altogether it was nearly three months from initial referral to machine.

At work I am on a PPO plan. Many people are on HMO plans. My guess is these are certainly no better than national plans and in some cases a lot worse.

Wading, you might want to consider that the leading cause of middle class bankruptcy is high medical bills. You might further want to consider that as a person with sleep apnea you are at high risk for long term disability due to stroke and other causes. If - God forbid - you had that stroke tomorrow, are you sure you wouldn't be the one needing society's help?

My beautiful niece is being treated for leukemia. She was treated once, relapsed and is being treated again. Her prognosis is unclear because just five years ago, kids that relapsed would not have survived.

She's on her father's insurance right now that he bought before she was born, but what about when she no longer qualifies? Should she just die in the street if she can't afford treatment?

You talk about helping others as if you or your family will never be the people that need that help. As a person at high risk for disability, you might want to give that more thought.

Who do you think the largest contributors to politicians are? Drug and insurance companies, here in the US. They are great to help us, but remember, bottom line is profit. I am an insulin diabetic. When I rack up the cost of the supplies monthly, and all the companies who make the lancets, meters, needles, insulin, etc. there will never ever be a cure for anything, as profit is the motive. On the flip side, we are lucky to live in a country where technology and medicine is available. trust me, lots of our friends and relatives would like to be in our shoes, even if they are paid for with more and more costs. Our healthcare premiums and prescriptions alone for 2 adults, no kids, no pres cards, alone was $17,000, so who's going to cut that number in half for me, NO BODY!

But we have to take the good and the bad, and even carping for now...!!

snamvar wrote:I am really questioning the motives in the U.S. as why the psychiatrists and doctors prescribe sleep or depression medication, as soon as you tell them about sleep problems and fatigue. First of all, they want you to keep going back to them every couple of months to see your progress or try a different medication Then there are the Multi billion dollar drug companies that need to sell/promote their drugs through the doctros with all kind of incentives.
If OSA is detected early and you are succefully treated with CPAP, then the whole system does not profit from your problem. It sucks

it is important to see things from different perspectives

sleep apnoea is difficult to diagnose as a doctor's diagnosis is always based on people's symptoms ie patients dont complained about stopping breathing at night, it is the only condition that happened when they are unconscious ie asleep

basically you have lots and lots of peolple complaining of tiredness and insomnia but only a few actually have the osa conditions

as such if the diagnosis is not to be missed, basically a physician would have to send lots of people for sleep studies ie every single person who complained of tiredness or insomnia

in fact may sleep apnoea patients would be angry prior to their diagnosis when they were told to go for the sleep studies

it is quite true to a certain extent when a doctor mentioned nobody died in his or her sleep. The brain can always wake you are when you are deprived of oxygen. Furthermore life goes on even if one has no sleep.

obviously treating sleep apnoea has many advantages of such as not falling asleep while driving and stopping heart attacks etc.

in terms of easier and cheaper treatment, the society's way of dealing with a problem is the cause

it is not a doctor's fault if:
-cpap machine is too dear
-patients cannot get hold of the best machine and mask
-limited self testing quite out of reach ie reslink costing $3000 oz dollars
-shop assistants promoting their brands and not knowing much about them
-insurance companies and government legislation creating burreacracy
-takes a genius like sws to manipulate the cpap machine

just an opinion, hope not to offend anybody

bman,

I like your opinions!