FREEDOM From Apnoea And Cpap Machine !!!!!

mars wrote:Hi All

OK - so here is my experience with a 5 day Buteyko course, given in Australia.

The educational and knowledge requirements demanded to get certified are minimal.

Chopper999 is simply wrong when he says -

it's active symptoms are eliminated

However, the post has done a good service in proving, with BlackSpinners inestimable help, that Buteyko is useless for sleep apnea.

I learned one thing from the 5 days, and that was that I could use a crepe bandage to keep my mouth closed whilst sleeping. That was worth knowing. Nor did I pay for the 5 days, the practitioner took some of my recovery videos in exchange, and I think he had the best of the deal.

The analogy with AA is completely false, but again useful in that it proves the illogicality of the arguements presented.

The website says -

If your sleep study(or your partner's "study"!) shows multiple apnoeas each hour, if you have been observed to stop breathing at night, if you are currently using or even thinking of using a CPAP machine, if you can't or don't want to use a CPAP machine .... if you SNORE at night…if your ASTHMA is CONTROLLED ??.. if you need any Asthma medications at all, here you will find information about a safe permanent solution to all these conditions.

The above is just lies as far as sleep apnea is concerned. Better spend your money on a Reiki course, at least on that you can end up believing you can do what in fact you already could do, but did not think you could.

In relation to ashma - the pro's

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/hel ... s/s314.htm

The cons -

http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/bizz2.htm

the pro's and cons -

http://www.breathing.com/articles/buteyko.htm

So, Chopper, what evidence is there, apart from yourself, that Buteyko works for sleep apnea.

cheers

Mars

G'day Mars - Just wanted to ask you did you walk away from the 5 day course and decide NOT to practise what we were told to do in class for the next 6 to 8 weeks - i.e.

1 - Get your morning CP rating up to high 30's - 40's and KEEP IT THERE!
2 - Practise your RB before each CP and do this this several times a day for up to 6 to 8 weeks
3 - Start Physical exercise with breath holds or breathing through nose only everyday for 6 to 8 weeks
4- Taping of the mouth { Yes you did }
5 - If no result did you ask for your money back ? { You were entitled to it }

Sorry to hear you had no results just curious as to weather or not you applied what was taught fully for 2 months or just decided not to bother.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

chopper999 wrote:
G'day Blackspinner - did not anyone tell you the mind is like a Parachute it works best when it is open - why accuse me of bullshitting people the proof is in the pudding for me - why don't YOU try a 5 day course and see what happens then if it does not work you can post back here and speak with authority from personal experience and say that it was BULLSHIT as far as your results were concerned.

I have taken a ton of alternative courses - including over 30 years of Yoga,I have over 15 years of acupressure and Shiatsu practice and various other courses including shamanism, meditation, and innumerable massage workshops in a variety of traditions. I can also read. I read up on a lot of medical studies on OSA. I have had people have apneas under my hands while working on them - they were not mouth breathing, they were not deep breathing - they were just asleep.

There are people whose asthma has benefited from Buteyko, Yoga and Pilates and self help acupressure but you cannot change your autonomic nervous system which is what is in control when you are asleep. Believe if I could I would do it. I can scare the pants of medical staff taking my vital signs simply by going into my yoga breathing trance but the moment I fall asleep I stop breathing.

Hey Chopper,
Didn't mean to set you up for a blasting. Those who are seeking alternative treatments will find them on their own. Offer up what works for you but don't push it. I hope that this method still works for you after the initial rush wears off. Don't rule out CPAP as a back-up. Sleep deprivation + bi-polar is a killer. If you did get a sleep study it would be very helpful to have it repeated - maybe in a few months. Keep us posted, but best to stick to facts. Everyone here knows just how important it is to get treatment for SA. I'm all for non-invasive, natural therapy but you wouldn't treat a diabetic with yoga unless you were carefully monitoring and had a supply of insulin nearby. Keep doing what works but be skeptical. And don't be too proud to change your opinion. I believe you mentioned that you still wake up frequently during the night. That is not good. Maybe better - but not good enough. Read up on SA so that you can evaluate the logic behind this method. Best of luck to you.

Hi Chopper

What a lot of questions you ask, none of which are relevant to the issue. But don't answer questions addressed to you, or respond to the points BlackSpinner made.

Why not try answering just one, instead of ignoring it -

I said -

So, Chopper, what evidence is there, apart from yourself, that Buteyko works for sleep apnea.

Bearing in mind that I am only evidence of what is applicable to me, and you are only evidence of what is applicable to you.

I got sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. That is not evidence that Alcoholics Anonymous works, simply that it worked for me.

So, what evidence is there that Buteyko works in sleep apnea, in other words -

it's active symptoms are eliminated

The active symptoms being, of course, apneic events.

And how do you know you are not still having apneas?

cheers

Mars

BlackSpinner wrote:

chopper999 wrote:
G'day Blackspinner - did not anyone tell you the mind is like a Parachute it works best when it is open - why accuse me of bullshitting people the proof is in the pudding for me - why don't YOU try a 5 day course and see what happens then if it does not work you can post back here and speak with authority from personal experience and say that it was BULLSHIT as far as your results were concerned.

I have taken a ton of alternative courses - including over 30 years of Yoga,I have over 15 years of acupressure and Shiatsu practice and various other courses including shamanism, meditation, and innumerable massage workshops in a variety of traditions. I can also read. I read up on a lot of medical studies on OSA. I have had people have apneas under my hands while working on them - they were not mouth breathing, they were not deep breathing - they were just asleep.

There are people whose asthma has benefited from Buteyko, Yoga and Pilates and self help acupressure but you cannot change your autonomic nervous system which is what is in control when you are asleep. Believe if I could I would do it. I can scare the pants of medical staff taking my vital signs simply by going into my yoga breathing trance but the moment I fall asleep I stop breathing.

G'day Blackspinner - I can understand why you are very adamant that the autonomic nervous system cannot be change but this article here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system - says that Whereas most of its actions are involuntary, some, such as breathing, work in tandem with the conscious mind - see here for the brain explanation - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 203033.htm - see here also for a Buteyko scientific
explanation of obstructive sleep apnoea and breathing retraining PDFformat first link top of Google page -
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source= ... fa7a261e2c

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

I've seen the video for eye exercises to eliminate glasses--total, absolute BS! (IMHO)
Since my CPAP is working for me (and it's not even an Autoset),
I'll stick with that. --I even think the lab got my pressure right.
I used meditation and creative visualization to deal with the mask and the other disturbances,
but that works for me too.
My hubby is more sensitive to airflow, so we're getting him an Autoset.
I expect giving him a LOT of support. (hope he doesn't think I'm nagging)
Offhand, how much are they paying you, Chopper?
I've been in sales--got the shirt and everything.

mars wrote:Hi Chopper

What a lot of questions you ask, none of which are relevant to the issue. But don't answer questions addressed to you, or respond to the points BlackSpinner made.

Why not try answering just one, instead of ignoring it -

I said -

So, Chopper, what evidence is there, apart from yourself, that Buteyko works for sleep apnea.

Bearing in mind that I am only evidence of what is applicable to me, and you are only evidence of what is applicable to you.

I got sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. That is not evidence that Alcoholics Anonymous works, simply that it worked for me.

So, what evidence is there that Buteyko works in sleep apnea, in other words -

it's active symptoms are eliminated

The active symptoms being, of course, apneic events.

And how do you know you are not still having apneas?

cheers

Mars

G'day Mars - please see links on my answer to Blackspinner especially the PDF download and also the scientific explanation given on the video found here - http://www.buteykohealth.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=36 - also you may want to contact some of these people who give testimonials they are all from Australia.
***************************************************************************************************************************************************
To answer your question how do I know that I am still not having apneas -

I have ceased to wake up choking completely or gasping for breath or have any feelings of suffocation while waking up or have any nightmares that I am being suffocated or waking up breathing heavy trying to recover from an apneic event or waking up trying to catch my breath ect ect
***************************************************************************************************************************************************
p.s. By the way - Just wanted to ask you again did you walk away from the 5 day course and decide NOT to practise what we were told to do in class for the next 6 to 8 weeks - i.e.

1 - Get your morning CP rating up to high 30's - 40's and KEEP IT THERE!
2 - Practise your RB before each CP and do this this several times a day for up to 6 to 8 weeks
3 - Start Physical exercise with breath holds or breathing through nose only everyday for 6 to 8 weeks
4- Taping of the mouth { Yes you did }
5 - If no result did you ask for your money back ? { You were entitled to it }

Sorry to hear you had no results just curious as to weather or not you applied what was taught fully for 2 months or just decided not to bother.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

chopper999 wrote: G'day Blackspinner - I can understand why you are very adamant that the autonomic nervous system cannot be change but this article here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system - says that Whereas most of its actions are involuntary, some, such as breathing, work in tandem with the conscious mind- see here for the brain explanation -

Note it says the conscious mind which is not what your sleeping mind is.

Sillyme wrote:Hey Chopper,
Didn't mean to set you up for a blasting. Those who are seeking alternative treatments will find them on their own. Offer up what works for you but don't push it. I hope that this method still works for you after the initial rush wears off. Don't rule out CPAP as a back-up. Sleep deprivation + bi-polar is a killer. If you did get a sleep study it would be very helpful to have it repeated - maybe in a few months. Keep us posted, but best to stick to facts. Everyone here knows just how important it is to get treatment for SA. I'm all for non-invasive, natural therapy but you wouldn't treat a diabetic with yoga unless you were carefully monitoring and had a supply of insulin nearby. Keep doing what works but be skeptical. And don't be too proud to change your opinion. I believe you mentioned that you still wake up frequently during the night. That is not good. Maybe better - but not good enough. Read up on SA so that you can evaluate the logic behind this method. Best of luck to you.

G'day Sillyme - don't worry I will be the first person to post on this forum if my progress with Buteyko takes a nose dive and I will also be the first person to use a cpap machine if NEED BE - what everyone here does not realise is I am not against cpap that's a person personal choice just like mine was to try out Buteyko - like I said early I will post my progress on a weekly basis and I will soon very shortly STOP answering any more questions as all this back and forth is getting nobody anywhere there is enough info for people to make their own minds up about Buteyko and weather or not to try it - myself I just said what the hell I can get my money back if it does not work so I just went for it and I must say I am very glad I did.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper

chopper999 wrote: G'day Sillyme - don't worry I will be the first person to post on this forum if my progress with Buteyko takes a nose dive and I will also be the first person to use a cpap machine if NEED BE

That's what I wanted to hear! Now I can get back to work.

Hi chopper

***************************************************************************************************************************************************
To answer your question how do I know that I am still not having apneas -

I have ceased to wake up choking completely or gasping for breath or have any feelings of suffocation while waking up or have any nightmares that I am being suffocated or waking up breathing heavy trying to recover from an apneic event or waking up trying to catch my breath ect ect
***************************************************************************************************************************************************

Sorry mate, but the above is absolutely no proof that you are not having apneas. A sleep study or a night with an oximeter would tell us a lot more.

I have had all the symptoms you describe (see my early posts) whilst still having sleep apnea. I no longer have the symptoms you describe, except very occassionaly when napping on the recliner, but my oximeter usually wakes me before that happens.

As for my Buteyko experience, I did it because of the symptoms you describe, and breathing through my nose did not help. The other exercises you mention must be after my time (about 5 years ago). My symptoms were mainly caused by acid reflux, causing laryngospasms, combined with sleep apnea.

So you have still not given any evidence that Buteyko works as described -

it's active symptoms are eliminated

or that you have eliminated the active symptoms of sleep apnea in yourself.

So be it. Not to worry, I have said enough. I leave you to it to enjoy.

cheers

Mars

Edited for word correction

BlackSpinner wrote:

chopper999 wrote: G'day Blackspinner - I can understand why you are very adamant that the autonomic nervous system cannot be change but this article here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system - says that Whereas most of its actions are involuntary, some, such as breathing, work in tandem with the conscious mind- see here for the brain explanation -

Note it says the conscious mind which is not what your sleeping mind is.

Yes Blackspinner I know that it says conscious mind and it is the conscious mind we are taught to use in our breathing exercises in Buteyko - we train our conscious mind to accept a reduced breathing pattern and also a higher uptake of CO2 among other things to effect the respiration rate of the brain while sleeping ideally to stop apnic events - Weather you believe any of this information is up to you.

Have a great day - I know I will - Chopper.

mars wrote:Hi chopper

***************************************************************************************************************************************************
To answer your question how do I know that I am still not having apneas -

I have ceased to wake up choking completely or gasping for breath or have any feelings of suffocation while waking up or have any nightmares that I am being suffocated or waking up breathing heavy trying to recover from an apneic event or waking up trying to catch my breath ect ect
***************************************************************************************************************************************************

Sorry mate, but the above is absolutely no proof that you are not having apneas. A sleep study or a night with an oximeter would tell us a lot more.

I have had all the symptoms you describe (see my early posts) whilst still having sleep apnea. I no longer have the symptoms you describe, except very occassionaly when napping on the recliner, but my oximeter usually wakes me before that happens.

As for my Buteyko experience, I did it because of the symptoms you describe, and breathing through my mouth did not help. The other exercises you mention must be after my time (about 5 years ago). The symptoms were mainly caused by acid reflux, causing laryngospasms, combined with sleep apnea.

So you have still not given any evidence that Buteyko works as described -

it's active symptoms are eliminated

or that you have eliminated the active symptoms of sleep apnea in yourself.

So be it. Not to worry, I have said enough. I leave you to it to enjoy.

cheers

Mars

G'day Mars you have totally confused me with your last post -

Quote - you say that I have had all the symptoms you describe (see my early posts) whilst still having sleep apnea. I no longer have the symptoms you describe, except very occassionaly when napping on the recliner, but my oximeter usually wakes me before that happens.

My answer - well of course you would have symptoms of sleep apnea if all the other symptoms are active as well such as I described choking,suffocation,nightmares,gasping for breath ect ect

Quote - As for my Buteyko experience, I did it because of the symptoms you describe, and breathing through my mouth did not help. The other exercises you mention must be after my time (about 5 years ago). The symptoms were mainly caused by acid reflux, causing laryngospasms, combined with sleep apnea.

My answer - You mean breathing through your nose did not help - also it seems to me who ever you went to only taught you about 30% of the program thus missing out on vital information and exercises - YOU SHOULD HAVE GOT YOUR MONEY BACK!!


Quote - Sorry mate, but the above is absolutely no proof that you are not having apneas. A sleep study or a night with an oximeter would tell us a lot more.

Quote - So you have still not given any evidence that Buteyko works as described -

it's active symptoms are eliminated

or that you have eliminated the active symptoms of sleep apnea in yourself.

MY answer - come to my house on the Gold Coast with your oximeter in 2 months time or later or when ever it suits you and you can hook me up stay the night and see what the results are in the morning.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

Mars has told you that just because you don't wake up gasping, etc. does not mean you don't have apnea! I would be curious to know what your oximeter says though. In any case, I imagine most of us here (as has been mentioned) did not wake up gasping, conscious of our events, and our only tip-offs were either bed partners or feeling so bad we were referred for testing. You haven't responded to suggestions that you get a new test and let us know how it goes, and I think that until you do, we are not going to be convinced of anything. Sorry.

Chopper,
I am all for healthy breathing (whatever that means) and any other natural means to improve how our bodies function. I'd just like to suggest you develop these things in conjunction with your prescribed cpap treatment, then be retested further down the line. However, it can be hard to know which endeavor caused any improvement when trying numerous efforts at the same time, such as weight loss, a change in nutritional and/or supplement support, etc. I admit my first impression was that you are in some way affilated with Buteyko promotions, and that may be right, but I am wondering if your all-out enthusiasm for this new-to-you approach to your sleep apnea may just be you being you. Just out of concern for you as someone diagnosed with OSA, I sure would like to see you make this decision AFTER at least 6 months of therapeutic cpap treatment. I know from experience how decisions can look a lot different when made with a healthy (as much as possible) brain that is rested and oxygenated. I just wish you could as enthsiastically embrace cpap treatment. Over and over on here users have reported improvement in mood disorders and health issues such as hypertension and blood sugar problems, even being able to reduce the dosage of medication needed. Of course that won't be everyone, but what if it could be you? Consider that you are new to Buteyko, and even if it could be all good, you also could be a bit feeling a bit of placebo effect. I have nothing to gain by encouraging you to embrace cpap treatment. You have everything to gain (or lose) by whether you listen to voices of experience in the sleep apnea arena. Best wishes.
Kathy