OT: Time out and/or Duke it out thread

[robysue]

It has come to my attention that some people think that because PR is counted among my friends that I don't see him as a bully sometimes. That is wrong...when he is a smart ass/bully/jerk...I see it clearly...I am not blind and I certainly don't condone it.
When he prefaces a comment with a derogatory comment...I see it and I cringe...and I already talked about that above.
When he directly attacks someone..I cringe and when he gets in a flame war...I am really sad because I know he is a better person than that.

This pretty much sums up my own views about PR. He has some exceptionally deep knowledge and he is a valuable resource when he shares that knowledge. But he also can be a smart ass/bully/jerk. And like Pugsy, I cringe when I see it. And I particularly cringe when he is actively fanning the flames in a flame war.

This thread isn't about one liners where someone gets a little dig in or I suppose one big dig...it's about taking those digs and letting them blow up into a flame war and the helping part of the thread is a casualty. (emphasis added)

I think this is the point that is at the heart of what Pugsy wants to do with this thread: Prevent the helping part of a thread that IS about helping a CPAP user in trouble from getting lost in an explosion of fiery verbal bombs of posts.

One or two snide remarks isn't a flame war...full blown direct attacks where the shit slinging is the only focus of the of the response..those are flame wars.

I agree that one or two snide remarks is not a flame war. But responding to snide remarks with an escalating degree of snideness of your own can build the conditions for a full blown flame war to ignite and take over the thread.

Likewise responding to a snide remark with a scolding remark can build the conditions for a full blown flame war to ignite and take over the thread.

I personally try to ignore responding to the snide remarks. Am I always successful? Probably not. I also try to not respond in a purely snide fashion, particularly when I have nothing to say *except* the snide remark. Am I always successful? Probably not.

When it's obviously the original problem is no longer the focus off attention and the thread is badly hijacked.

And that's the thing that is so sad when it happens. And when it happens in a newbie's first or second thread, it can and does drive the newbies away, which is also sad.

I do hope that Pugsy's experiment of tactfully telling the participants in a flame war to take it here instead of continuing to hijack the thread will work.

[SleepyEyes21]

Would you be so kind as to post instructions for all of us on how to post a link to this thread when suggesting it to other members? Thank you!

Save this link somewhere and insert it in a post where you see that maybe the ugliness has got out of hand.
I am not saying just because someone disagrees with someone...what I am talking about is when there's name calling and stuff like that and all they are doing is name calling and poking or whatever. When all educational material is absent from the comments and it's obvious there is a fight going on.
posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=114176#postingbox

can you clarify some things for me please? I thought you stated in an earlier post that 'two wrongs don't make a right?' Are you saying you believe it is okay to poke back if someone pokes you enough? How much is enough for you, and what if that amount is not enough or is way too much for someone else? Then what should they do?

Not for me to say...see above...are there multiple posts with nothing but poking and name calling and no educational material offered.???

If you call me troll...an idiot..or otherwise say something blatantly nasty... if I return in kind does that make it right or okay for either of us to act like children? We would both be wrong to do that....that's where 2 wrongs don't make a right come from.
As for how much poking is too much...dunno..when more time is spent attacking the messenger and not the message or god forbid the entire message gets tossed out the door....when there's multiple pokes going on and it's obvious the thread has got hijacked. One poke doesn't do it...one get lost if people ignore it...but when you have a 1/3 of the posts in a thread have nothing to do with original question...it's gone too far.

Also, are you trying to say you believe you are not 'as guilty' of the same problem because 'you usually do one well-thought out return poke and then you are done'? How is such a thing measured and who is the designated measurer of that?

Nope..never said I wasn't guilty of being a dick....I admit it freely..I can be a real big dick if I get really pissed off..and yes I often get one little dig in but I don't come back and repeat the same dig 6 or 7 times every time I get called a dick by the person I was digging. I usually try to get my one dig in and try to avoid name calling if at all possible and certainly I don't call them what I am probably thinking in and I am done then usually that person goes on the Foe list and I never read anything they ever write in response....I will usually try to apologize to the OP in the thread for my bad behavior in advance.

Who is the measurer....you are.. you are the adult. If this is lost on you I can't explain it.

Thank you for making my posts in another thread the example of what you are referring to as far as threads that should be moved to this one. I think my posts that you refer to are excellent examples that show other forum members how to respond to bullies in the forum in a more mature manner, and not stoop to their level of harassment, cursing, and other vile/ vicious/ negative behaviors.

You needed 2 posts to point out that there was a flame war that I am pretty sure most of us recognized and you think that none of us know how to deal with them and need to be told how to respond..not once but twice??
And nowhere a mention about the problem the OP had?
I didn't blast your posts...I only mentioned that they were part of the several others that had no educational material in it and when I say educational material I mean educational in relation to the original question or problem presented at the beginning of the thread.
My apologies for not making it clear what I am referring to when I say educational material..

I will repeat again...this thread is for when the "discussions" change from being civil to not civil...when things get rude and there's repeated bantering back and forth and name calling and direct personal insults.
We all know when disagreements turn ugly...it's no big secret and isn't rocket science. We all know when the line gets crossed from a slight poke to a full fist up the side of the head.
For when a newbie comes to their thread and can't find the answer to their question or problem because there's so much shit slinging and that includes the posts pointing out the shit slinging. Maybe I am different but I can usually spot the bullies and shit slinging without it being pointed out to me.
It's our way of showing the person who is lost in the flame war that not everyone acts like that here.

I just went back and again read your two posts in the thread in question.
I saw you pointing out some people you feel are well known bullies. You mention one of them has zero moral character (can you explain how you come to know that about him)....he may be an ass often but I don't have clue about his moral character..
I didn't see anything on how to deal with the people you named as bullies or forum bullies in general and you weren't responding to the OP in the thread..you were responding to a couple of participants in the flame war ugliness...
Apparently taking side of one and poking at the other which is fine...I don't care who you side with.
I saw nothing about how to deal with forum bullies at all.
I did see where you mentioned that there are more good people here than bullies.

To be clear...your type of response in that thread isn't something that I would give you a link to this thread over.
Now I don't know about someone else...you might catch them on a bad day or something.
You stated your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it and other than calling some people bullies you weren't particularly nasty to them or anything like that. A little poke at PR about the mirror but that's it.
I really didn't have a problem with what you said...but it is included in the number of posts that isn't particularly helpful to the OP in that thread in terms of education or thoughts or discussion as to his original problem.
That's okay too...most of the threads here never stay totally on topic anyway.

I haven't decided how I will word things when I see a thread totally going down the tubes...I won't do or say anything until things get really bad ...and I think most of us know when that happens and it isn't with the first couple of pokes unless profanity is used.

I am going to try to compose something along the lines of

"My apologies to the OP in the thread for the direction it has taken especially if you haven't received all the help you need. This sort of behavior the majority of the forum members don't find acceptable and for that reason I am asking the participants to take their fighting somewhere else and if you can't find a place....insert my link to this thread."

Nicely asking the participants to take the fight elsewhere and let the OP know that this sort of behavior is frowned upon so that they don't think we are all nothing but bar room brawlers.

I am NOT going to call the participants names of any sort ...like bully, troll, dickhead..nothing like that.
When we do that we become part of the problem and not the solution.
I guarantee you that anyone reading the thread already knows that so and so is being a dick. No need for me to point it out again and I don't want to have any more poking going on because I am wanting it to stop and for me to call someone a name (even though I am thinking it) then I am doing the very thing I want to stop and for me that defeats my purpose.

You can handle it anyway you wish but I would hope that you will find a way to convey displeasure with how someone is acting without stooping to name calling. Trust me...we already know what they are and there's no need to poke them again just because you can.

Now sometimes you are going to run into someone whose just really going to be a problem...we've had a few in the past but none since you have been here that I can think of.
And I know that some people think PR is a huge problem but we have had some who make PR look like a saint.
I think the guy with the font fetish may be a new really big problem. Remains to be seen but I don't have a good feeling about that one. I have already been a dick where he is concerned..I admit it freely but I don't think you will find anyone but his alter ego who disagrees with me.

So no..I am not perfect...never said I was. Never will be...but I care about the overall image of this forum and the members and I would respectfully hope that we can self moderate and keep the ugliness to a minimum so that it isn't out there so much that all the newbies see is the ugliness.
That's my main concern...how newbies see this forum and when I have people send me a private message asking for help and apologizing for sending a PM because they were afraid to post on the forum...our image here sucks. All they see is the ugly and don't see the good people we have here.

We are going to have the bullies...it's part of forum life but we don't have to become a bully ourselves as a way of dealing with them. We have to find some other way or this forum will die a slow and painful death because we run off newbies...and the only people left will be the old timers like me who have learned to survive the ugly or the bullies who relish in being the cause of the ugly.

Pugsy, I am not here to fight with you. Can you please let me know when you've calmed down and had enough rest so I can respond in kind? There appears to be quite a few misunderstandings/ misinterpretations in your answers that I'd like to clarify.

Thank you

[grayghost4]

robysue wrote :

I do hope that Pugsy's experiment of tactfully telling the participants in a flame war to take it here instead of continuing to hijack the thread will work.

it seem to be working very well ... starting a war here NOW

and most of the help threads seem to be doing nicely

[Lucyhere]

This pretty much sums up my own views about PR. He has some exceptionally deep knowledge and he is a valuable resource when he shares that knowledge. But he also can be a smart ass/bully/jerk. And like Pugsy, I cringe when I see it. And I particularly cringe when he is actively fanning the flames in a flame war.

I don't think anyone questions palerider's knowledge. His knowledge is obvious; but what stands out more is his "smart ass/bully/jerk" responses, especially to new people. It's been going on for years, and in every other thread. The word "cringe" is a good one. That's what many feel when he thinks it's okay to belittle someone, especially a new person. And, it's not only palerider, but he's the leader. If we had moderators he (and others) would have been tossed out long ago. They know they can say whatever they want and get away with it.

[SleepyEyes21]

Pugsy and Avi were acting like adults and actually joking around. You couldn't stand that, could ya PR. You'd much rather see people attack each other. That's who you are PR, and my hope is that everyone here finally sees that!

I am going to respectfully take issue with what you said. I wasn't going to respond but it bothers me because I can't see where anything PR said was meant to provoke me or Avi attack each other...and the font nut thing...he's dead on about that one. That nut job doesn't need any provoking to stir up shit.
What he said was true and wasn't said in an insulting manner that I could see. He pretty much stated the facts as they are. How you come up with his trying to stir up shit is beyond me.

I know you really believe that PR is the way you see him and want all the rest of us to see him like you do but it's not going to happen. You will get a few to agree with you but the majority of us know different.
Yeah...he can be a dick sometimes but I don't know many of us here who hasn't been a dick ourselves one time or another. I know I have and admit it.

I'm going to respectfully put in my two cents on this discussion. Pugsy - I also don't understand why you or PR or anyone calls Avi names or is cruel to him. I don't know Avi; he most likely has been here longer than I have. Now (in reading these last few posts) I understand you have a negative history with him. But if (possibly Lucy) and myself and certainly newbies don't know this, and they come along and see you or PR or whoever treating Avi really poorly- of course they are going to think you or PR or whoever it is, is trying to stir up sh*t. What the average person sees without knowing the 'backstory' is you all being the aggressor/ bully to someone who has done nothing to provoke it.

And then, just because you tell people you have had negative interactions with this member (Avi), you insist yourself and PR are right in what you are saying to him and about him and claim these are "facts." And apparently, you expect other members to believe you, leading to taking sides- which is a divisive move. Isn't that what you just called Lucy out for - for trying to be divisive (in regards to PR?) Is this what you really want for the forum? Bullying isn't our only problem here; it is our biggest at the moment, but by far it isn't our only one.

I'd like to suggest that in the effort to cut back on Bullying, members stop bringing their past negative history into the threads in the forum also, and bring it here instead if you need to. Your past negative history confuses members who have no idea (and don't need to/ want to/ care to know) about past disagreements.

[nanwilson]

My 2 cents... both you Sleepyeyes and Lucy are just try to bait Pugsy, if you really want to know what went before, just look it up, don't bait. I also find it odd and I've said it before, the two of you are one and the same, my reasoning being, one jumps into a thread and low and below within minutes there the other is, backing up each others statements. Not just following each other in a thread, but the same language, type of speaking, etc. Lucy, you have been caught before with many identities, WHY? is it fun to get folks panties in a knot and then sit back and relish what you have accomplished.
I have not been here very much in the past while, only because I got fed up with the back biting that has been going on. You detest PR, and that is VERY obvious, but for heavens sake, he is a lot more knowledgeable than most here and tries his best to help out. He readily acknowledges that some folks get his goat rather easily, but usually its those that give wrong or unhelpful answers and tend to not help anyone with their answers. You have now run off Julie, why, just because you disagree with some of her statements. Julie has a wealth of medical knowledge and just because PEF disagreed with her, you had to pile on. What a crying shame, soon there will only be newbies here with no real help here at all.

I applaud Pugsy for trying to garner some peace around here, but I'm fearful that she will just keep banging her head against the wall and silently disappear again. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT???????????????????????????????

[SleepyEyes21]

Grace...the crickets thing was an attempt at a gentle reminder that the way the thread was going wasn't in a good direction and an attempt to stop ugly behavior...it was before your time.
The problem was no one heard the crickets or cared and a lot of the newbies didn't realize that we were chastizing someone for poor behavior...so they thought no one cared about the flame war going on in their thread and that war wasn't about anything in particular except name calling....and they think we are all a bunch of bullies because we allow that sort of behavior.

iirc, the 'crickets' was originally suggested as a reminder to the attacked person not to respond to the attacker... just 'turn the other cheek', it was immediately perverted into another tool for those that like to pretend they're holier than thou to use to beat on people they didn't like...

so it went from "just ignore them, don't feed the troll" to "SHUT UP!" and thus died an unfortunate death.

PR- what is the point of your post here? Pugsy said this OT thread is for bringing fights/ disagreements from forum help threads to. She did not say this is a place where you can come to instigate conflict. I thought you posted somewhere earlier that you were going to try to change. Well- we can all see that lasted less than an hour. And as usual, you aren't following the rules and never intend to. I agree with Lucy; you should have been kicked off of this forum long ago.

This will be the group's next big decision: do we accept the behavior of Members who are 'booksmart only' and are Bullies otherwise? Or, do we make it a priority that Best Behavior is required to be a participant in this forum?

[grayghost4]

nothing will change around here until the nat address is posted under the registered name .... and that should apply to all unregistered guest as well. then you can see who is who !

[Grace~~~]

This will be the group's next big decision: do we accept the behavior of Members who are 'booksmart only' and are Bullies otherwise? Or, do we make it a priority that Best Behavior is required to be a participant in this forum?

YIKES

I am certain I should not be included in any "group" decision, but the idea of choosing behavior over book smart is insane to *me*.

I am fighting for my life and had to leave my home state of Florida where there are many wonderful southern accents, and sugar honey kindness (that I love) and wonderful caring God fearing people ...

...but PLEASE ... I BEGGED to get to the smartest "book smart" doctors I could find.
They could actually kick me as they left the room and it would be OK as long as I had access to their mind and skills.

Book Smart trumps good behavior ANY TIME you are trying to get help!
imho

...maybe not in a purely social or ideological setting where genuine help is not sought ... but certainly someplace like CPAPTALK.

More respect should be given the best and brightest.

We are not all equal.
That's just a fact.

[robysue]

Pugsy and Avi were acting like adults and actually joking around. You couldn't stand that, could ya PR. You'd much rather see people attack each other. That's who you are PR, and my hope is that everyone here finally sees that!

I am going to respectfully take issue with what you said. I wasn't going to respond but it bothers me because I can't see where anything PR said was meant to provoke me or Avi attack each other...and the font nut thing...he's dead on about that one. That nut job doesn't need any provoking to stir up shit.
What he said was true and wasn't said in an insulting manner that I could see. He pretty much stated the facts as they are. How you come up with his trying to stir up shit is beyond me.

I know you really believe that PR is the way you see him and want all the rest of us to see him like you do but it's not going to happen. You will get a few to agree with you but the majority of us know different.
Yeah...he can be a dick sometimes but I don't know many of us here who hasn't been a dick ourselves one time or another. I know I have and admit it.

I'm going to respectfully put in my two cents on this discussion. Pugsy - I also don't understand why you or PR or anyone calls Avi names or is cruel to him. I don't know Avi; he most likely has been here longer than I have. Now (in reading these last few posts) I understand you have a negative history with him.

To make a very long and complicated story very, very short: At one point Avi had a very bad habit of repeatedly interrupting threads to post information that he thought was factual, but had, in fact be refuted multiple times, and often with proper citations for the material refuting his claims. He tended to overreact to people correcting him when he was posting information that badly misled newbies about certain very important basic facts about both CPAP and OSA. He also had a habit of repeatedly posting the same links to outdated research in multiple threads, including threads where the linked outdated articles were not particularly relevant to the topic the thread was discussing.

And while it may seem difficult for you to believe with the current (toned down version of) Avi, there was a time when he could dish the disrespectful language with the best of them.

Avi has a long history of posting the message that Pugsy and/or PaleRider (in particular) are practicing medicine without a license, and in the past he's done this after Pugsy or PaleRider has responded both to his post and the OP in newbie threads where Avi was one of the first to respond. Things kind of deteriorate quickly when you are doing your best to clear up a significant piece of misleading "information" when the other person responds with "You are doing something illegal here" and that's the kind of response they've both had from Avi.

Avi and I also have a long, but not quite so colorful, history of back-and-forths that where I've had to try to clear up misleading or inaccurate "information" posted by Avi, but I don't think he's ever outright charged me with "practicing medicine without a license" and he has done that with Pugsy.

I have not put Avi (or anybody else) on my Foe list, even though I've been tempted to at times. And here's why: The folks I am most likely to put on my Foe list are the people whom I see as having the greatest potential to write misleading posts---posts that need to be corrected. Now don't get me wrong: I don't think any of these people intentionally post incorrect information; indeed I'm sure most of them are posting information that they believe is correct in an effort to sincerely help others. [PaleRider feel free to call me naive ] But that doesn't mean that information should be left unchallenged.

Now there are a lot of times I disagree with how PR in particular chooses to challenge information he believes to be incorrect to the point of being dangerously misleading. But I agree he's RIGHT to challenge that information.

The way I see it: ONE Pugsy's purposes for starting this thread is to get the

"Don't be so cruel"
"I'm not cruel"
"You're being an asshole"
"No you're the real asshole and you don't know anything"
"You're not so special"
etc. etc. etc.

exchanges between people moved OUT of the Newbie's thread with important questions to be answered and TO here where the people involved in the "Are too" "Am Not" name calling can continue their flame war for as long as they want WITHOUT making it difficult for the newbie to find the answers they're looking for.

And then, just because you tell people you have had negative interactions with this member (Avi), you insist yourself and PR are right in what you are saying to him and about him and claim these are "facts."

Perhaps using the Forum's search tools to look up posts from various individuals involved in any given flame war is a good idea. If you care to, you can find the complete history of anybody's posts. You don't have to take my word for it. You can look up posts where I've fought with Avi. You can also look up posts where I've taken PaleRider to task for his use of language that I believe is counter productive. Yes, it takes time to do it, particularly when Avi's got over 4000 posts, PaleRider's got over 14,000, and I've got almost 7000. Let alone the fact Pugsy has over 35,000 posts. When you are talking about people with 1000+ post histories, there's always going to be a back story.

And apparently, you expect other members to believe you, leading to taking sides- which is a divisive move. Isn't that what you just called Lucy out for - for trying to be divisive (in regards to PR?) Is this what you really want for the forum? Bullying isn't our only problem here; it is our biggest at the moment, but by far it isn't our only one.

No, actually what Pugsy is saying is that if you feel like you just have to start responding to a HELP thread with posts that are OFF TOPIC, personal attacks and complaints about:

how big of an *asshole* Person A is being or
how *stupid* Person B is or
how *crazy* Person C is or
how *dementented* Person D is or
how ....
how *petulent* Person P is or
how *quarelsome* Person Q is or
how *rancid* Person R is or
how *stupid* Person S is
....

then take those comments HERE instead of posting the insults or nags or what-have-you's in the Newbie's thread and hijacking it with fuel for a flame war.

I'd like to suggest that in the effort to cut back on Bullying, members stop bringing their past negative history into the threads in the forum also, and bring it here instead if you need to. Your past negative history confuses members who have no idea (and don't need to/ want to/ care to know) about past disagreements.

This is a decent idea, but please do NOT mistake someone's finding it necessary to correct misleading information that has been posted time and time again and pointing out that the misleading information has been corrected multiple times before as "bringing past negative history" into a HELP thread on the forum.

[exiii]

With all do respect, it seems the only thing you are interested in fixing is the symptom (thread derailment). You've apparently decided that the root cause can't be fixed. Maybe that's true. It would, after all, require some admin involvement, and apparently they have no interest in making the community more inviting to the people who really need the help - new users.

[nanwilson]

Thank you Robysue for putting it way better than I could , well said. +100000.
Nan

[SleepyEyes21]

My 2 cents... both you Sleepyeyes and Lucy are just try to bait Pugsy, if you really want to know what went before, just look it up, don't bait. I also find it odd and I've said it before, the two of you are one and the same, my reasoning being, one jumps into a thread and low and below within minutes there the other is, backing up each others statements. Not just following each other in a thread, but the same language, type of speaking, etc. Lucy, you have been caught before with many identities, WHY? is it fun to get folks panties in a knot and then sit back and relish what you have accomplished.
I have not been here very much in the past while, only because I got fed up with the back biting that has been going on. You detest PR, and that is VERY obvious, but for heavens sake, he is a lot more knowledgeable than most here and tries his best to help out. He readily acknowledges that some folks get his goat rather easily, but usually its those that give wrong or unhelpful answers and tend to not help anyone with their answers. You have now run off Julie, why, just because you disagree with some of her statements. Julie has a wealth of medical knowledge and just because PEF disagreed with her, you had to pile on. What a crying shame, soon there will only be newbies here with no real help here at all.

I applaud Pugsy for trying to garner some peace around here, but I'm fearful that she will just keep banging her head against the wall and silently disappear again. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT???????????????????????????????

Hi Nan, I don't know how to assure you- other than to say- that Lucy and I are not the same person. I don't know much about computers, but I'm thinking wouldn't it show under my avatar if I had also signed in under another name? I know I've seen that before on others' profiles.

It is not my intent to "bait Pugsy." And no, I don't want her to disappear, unless she (or anyone else) feels the need to do so for their general health/ mental health- even if for just a short break. That's actually okay and a good thing to do for yourself

Nan - I'm not sure you understood me in my last post to Pugsy. I myself do not want to or care to know about another member's past negative history with another member, especially if it is being played out in a negative/ cruel way in a thread in the forum. In fact, I might never even realize two people had one unless one of them mentions it, like Pugsy did with Avi here, so why would I spend countless hours searching for something (even if I was interested) that I have no idea is or isn't there?

Let me try to explain it this way: try to picture yourself as a new CPAP user coming into the forum. You are browsing through some of the threads, not knowing quite where to start because all of this is new to you, and you are feeling very overwhelmed. You have hundreds of questions. You start to find some threads where people are talking about masks, selling masks, etc.- and then you come across a set of threads where members are verbally attacking other members without provocation. In the verbal attacks there are curses, name calling, derogatory statements, and many other negative components. (Now remember- YOU are a newbie.) In these threads, you are reading verbal attacks between members where several members or maybe just one to two are attacking one or more others, with no provocation. What do you think YOUR reaction/ thoughts/ feelings is/are going to be?

Then it gets worse... then you find threads where members are verbally attacking newbies just for asking questions. And this is happening A LOT. Now how do you feel as a new member of this forum? Are you likely to come back?

This Time Out/ Duke Out space is a godsend (thank you Johnny and Carolyn G., and Pugsy for bringing it to us.) This is the "safe space" where we can hopefully communicate and work things out as a community. Pugsy (and nobody else) has to 'bang their head against the proverbial wall anymore;' they never actually had to in the first place, but that's a post for another day.

[palerider]

To make a very long and complicated story very, very short: At one point Avi had a very bad habit of repeatedly interrupting threads to post information that he thought was factual, but had, in fact be refuted multiple times, and often with proper citations for the material refuting his claims. He tended to overreact to people correcting him when he was posting information that badly misled newbies about certain very important basic facts about both CPAP and OSA. He also had a habit of repeatedly posting the same links to outdated research in multiple threads, including threads where the linked outdated articles were not particularly relevant to the topic the thread was discussing.

most all of those things are still happening, the repeated misinformation, the repeated postings of outdated information. he's added in posting pictures to things without any info on what those pictures are, "get this mask (four pics, no words)" sort of thing, left up to the hapless newbie to try and guess, apparently.

[Lucyhere]

My 2 cents... both you Sleepyeyes and Lucy are just try to bait Pugsy, if you really want to know what went before, just look it up, don't bait. I also find it odd and I've said it before, the two of you are one and the same, my reasoning being, one jumps into a thread and low and below within minutes there the other is, backing up each others statements. Not just following each other in a thread, but the same language, type of speaking, etc. Lucy, you have been caught before with many identities, WHY? is it fun to get folks panties in a knot and then sit back and relish what you have accomplished.
I have not been here very much in the past while, only because I got fed up with the back biting that has been going on. You detest PR, and that is VERY obvious, but for heavens sake, he is a lot more knowledgeable than most here and tries his best to help out. He readily acknowledges that some folks get his goat rather easily, but usually its those that give wrong or unhelpful answers and tend to not help anyone with their answers. You have now run off Julie, why, just because you disagree with some of her statements. Julie has a wealth of medical knowledge and just because PEF disagreed with her, you had to pile on. What a crying shame, soon there will only be newbies here with no real help here at all.

I applaud Pugsy for trying to garner some peace around here, but I'm fearful that she will just keep banging her head against the wall and silently disappear again. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT???????????????????????????????

Nan... you are being plain ridiculous. Sleepy lives in FL. I live in CA. I'm not computer literate enough to even know how to do what you suggest. If you know how that can be done from one state to another, please let me know. Btw... have you noticed how many times several names have popped up when someone posts? That's been happening here a lot due to the ISP or something like that. And yes, I became a member back in 2007/08. Then I left for a few years. When my pressure needs changed I rejoined with a new name because I needed some advice. End of story.

I too applaud Pugsy for "trying to garner some peace around here", which I have expressed to her. Starting this thread may turn out to be the best thing that's happened around here.

As far as Julie is concerned... I did see a post where she said she is leaving. I don't remember posting anything after her post. If I did, please post it here. Maybe you should go back and reread that thread. As for Julie's "medical" advice, I guess that's a matter of opinion.

As far as PEF is concerned... Pat and I don't agree on lots of issues. However, we have agreed to be civil when addressing one another. That's how adults should act; wouldn't you agree?

I just read a post from Sleepy when I clicked submit. I guess this is gonna be lots of fun...