Way to go - APOLOGY ALSO

The problem with self-moderation is, that is what brought all this about. Too many member see "self-moderation" as being moderation by the members, rather than the introspective restraint of themselves.

There are a number of members (noticeably absent from this thread) that see themselves as protectors and arbiters of the forum and fact. When something is posted they see as a threat, they jump on it in the thread, attack the offender, and nearly always the thread goes off-topic. Someone's feelings are hurt and we all get to witness the worst this forum has to offer.

Effective moderation is nearly silent. It's by PM and it's done by someone who has authority. The proposal to self-moderate is futile, as it requires a behavioral change in these forum "leaders". The ONLY way this problem goes away is with SELF-moderation, meaning self-restraint.

We all know what it means, and how it can occur. For Pugsy, it is gnawing her fingers raw while holding back on the abusive gang moderation that goes on here. As an alternative to attacking a poster, ignoring a post that is wrong, or just quietly correcting the information, should not be that hard. Even trolls die a fast death in the face of being ignored.

Pugsy wrote:Common sense and common courtesy have long sense been abandoned here.

That was the case when I joined up, unfortunately, and it really hasn't changed significantly over all that time, expect for the names/personas of the usual suspects

Go well, and thank you for your many contributions

When a mudfest is brewing, just a PM reminding a person in a nice way that they can "foe" someone who is annoying them and stop responding. For newbies, we could point to a sticky that tells them how to do it. And reassure newbies that particular person is only one of the many members here, most of us are here to help, not treat people badly. Newbies may not be able to get pm's at first, so that might have to be done publicly.

Sometimes I'm the one who needs the reminder. I get going and don't know when to stop. If someone PM'd me saying "crickets", it might get me to stop and think for a moment before adding fuel to the fire.

Krelvin included Johnny's message in his tnet site:

https://sleep.tnet.com/reference/docs/c ... moderation

Possibly this would be a great sticky.

This is how to Foe someone:

Go to Control Panel

All the way to the right you'll see a tab called, "Friends and Foes"

Click on it and you'll see that you can Add Friends or Manage Foes

the rest is self-explanatory

I will say when I first came to this forum I was absolutely clueless about my condition and my therapy. And definitely clueless about managing my therapy. And somewhat depressed that just plugging in the machine and wearing the mask didn't fix me. I hesitated for a couple of weeks to post or even ask for help because of some of the mean, snarky comments on here. I'm not a shrinking violet, but at that time I didn't need any more negativity in my life. Finally, sick of getting an AHI of 25 every night even though I was doing everything the doctors told me to do, I posted some questions. Pugsy to the rescue!!!

I think if everyone could keep in mind that most newbies here are lost, exhausted, overwhelmed, and may have a lot more problems than just sleep apnea, and then post with that in mind, this place could once again be like people say it used to be. This should be a place where people can come with their questions and be treated with some respect. If you aren't here to; a) learn about the condition and how to manage it, or b) share your knowledge and help people in desperate need, then why are you here?

New here too. Some one gave me grief on my first post because I used colloqial language. I apologize for not being an english major.

The problem with the Foe list is self control...which is sort of why we all are having this discussion...people are short on the self control thing.
If I use the Foe list (and I do) while we may not see what the "Foe" has said we still see a little message that so and so on your Foe list said something and then we get a choice to "Display the post".
It's real hard to not peek.
Not to mention sometimes people on the Foe list end up getting their entire post quoted by someone not on your Foe list and you see it anyway and your blood starts to boil. or sometimes mine does.

I have gotten better about not peeking but it's always a struggle. I try to use it so I don't end up doing the very thing that upsets me here...poking the sleeping bear or the already awake grumpy bear.

There are some people who just plain old irritate me because they have nothing but negativity to offer.
Those people go on my Foe list. It keeps me from showing my ass like I did above with the STFU comment.
I am human and I do have the same feelings and gripes and irritations that everyone of us have about some people...most often it isn't so much what they say but how they say it and how it comes across.
I still believe that the majority of people don't really want to be mean and nasty and hurt someone but sometimes what they say just comes out wrong or they misread something and jump all over someone because they didn't read completely or thoroughly.
Now there will always be some assholes who really just are the epitamy of what we want to classify as a troll. They just spew negativity all the time because they are just assholes in real life or maybe they are just one unhappy human being for whatever reason.

I wouldn't interact with them in real life so why should I interact with them here on this forum and I sure as hell know that I can't change someone. The only person I can change is myself. In all honesty it irritates me to think that I have to change just because someone irritates me but that's the cold hard fact of life.
I can't change anyone but myself and how I respond to those that irritate me. It is what it is no matter how much I wish it were different.

I copied only this part but I agree with everything Sleeprider said.

Sleeprider wrote:The ONLY way this problem goes away is with SELF-moderation, meaning self-restraint.

Mopheus wrote:New here too. Some one gave me grief on my first post because I used colloqial language. I apologize for not being an english major.

Yes, I saw that too and I'm very sorry that happened.

Along those lines, spelling, grammar and/or punctuation should at no time be corrected. Not everyone spells correctly or has command of the English language; not to mention that this forum is seen in many parts of the world. This is a forum to help people with sleep apnea. This forum isn't about correcting someone's spelling, typing ability or the way in which they phrase their sentences. It's plain insulting!

I completely agree with Sleeprider. I think this is the most intelligent description of the problem I have heard yet. If we would all focus on the introspective moderation of our own behavior instead of on the behavior of others, we would not have these problems. I guess it is just human nature to see the wrong in the other person, not in ourselves.

One thing that helps me control myself when I get angry is to try to imagine that the person I am about to insult is sitting right in front of me. I can imagine this especially if there is a picture of that person. I ask myself, if I was sitting face to face with this person, would I say what I am about to say?? If I can get to that point, the answer is always no and I catch myself from doing what, in the end, only embarrasses me.

Basically, I like the forum mostly the way it is, but I do believe that things like personal attacks, name calling and blatant disrespect for others should not be tolerated on any forum. Many forum moderators will delete those posts and send a warning to the perpetrator. Sometimes whole threads will be deleted that have gone too far down the rabbit hole. I have to say though, that for an unmoderated forum, this one is not really that bad. I have seen ones where there are literally pages and pages of almost constant personal attacks, sucking in more and more people. The incidents on this forum seem to be more sporadic and usually don't go too far.

But I can certainly understand how someone like Pugsy, whose whole purpose in life is to help everyone, feels like she is getting no cooperation from the senior members of the community. That would get old fast.

I think it would be a good start to use our "foe" lists and our PM "crickets" to at least try to alert people to when they are in danger of getting out of line.

Mudrock63 wrote:I will say when I first came to this forum I was absolutely clueless about my condition and my therapy. And definitely clueless about managing my therapy. And somewhat depressed that just plugging in the machine and wearing the mask didn't fix me. I hesitated for a couple of weeks to post or even ask for help because of some of the mean, snarky comments on here. I'm not a shrinking violet, but at that time I didn't need any more negativity in my life. Finally, sick of getting an AHI of 25 every night even though I was doing everything the doctors told me to do, I posted some questions. Pugsy to the rescue!!!

I think if everyone could keep in mind that most newbies here are lost, exhausted, overwhelmed, and may have a lot more problems than just sleep apnea, and then post with that in mind, this place could once again be like people say it used to be. This should be a place where people can come with their questions and be treated with some respect. If you aren't here to; a) learn about the condition and how to manage it, or b) share your knowledge and help people in desperate need, then why are you here?

+1

Janknitz wrote:I guess "forming a posse" is a poor choice of words, but what I meant was that instead of joining in on the mud slinging we who feel motivated to do so could just provide a reminder of an alternate approach in pm's.

I know I could say "crickets" to some people and get this type of response: [URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img]
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But it's worth a try. If even a few people give crickets it will slow down the vitriol.

Hi Jan, I do/ did understand what you meant in your wording, and I apologize if you feel I offended you in my follow up post in any way; I surely did not intend to I like your posts very much, and learn a lot from them, so thank you!

It may be that many members haven't been here long enough to feel like a private PM would be helpful, or worse yet- that it might bring more grief raining down on them from the instigator(s). Since you and a lot of others have been here a while, you likely have more established relationships that might help in affecting change in another's behavior. I appreciate you for being willing to try.

** Take a "mini-step" back here, everyone: have you noticed the LACK OF fights/ conflicts/ arguments/ sh*t slinging/ etc. going on, since this thread started? Wow- what's up with that??

The problem with self moderation is that the person must be able to decide that they are out of line. I really think most think they are just facing reality and we are the ones that are delusional, too soft, wanting to be pampered, and whiners. What they don't seem to understand is that people on this side of the fence get just as PO'd as they do and for the most part say nothing if it's not helping. They on the other hand think that what they are doing IS helping. Grow up, deal with it, be an "adult person", just get used to it-they see this as good advice and helping. How do you self moderate if you really think you are right?

If they scare someone off they will never accept that it was their actions that caused it-They were a troll, they will come back when they toughen up, or just make fun of the person-make it the fault of the person that left. Anything but accept that a real person, desperate came here for help and left worse off then when they came.

Sonnyboy wrote:Krelvin included Johnny's message in his tnet site:

https://sleep.tnet.com/reference/docs/c ... moderation

Possibly this would be a great sticky.

Thanks for posting this, Sonnyboy- I stand corrected!

Can Krelvin find the date that Johnny G. said/ posted this, and put it in his post to lend validity?

Johnny states '...his approach to moderating is well known...', however I am a fairly new member and do not know the Goodmans, and I'm sure there are plenty of newer members who also do not know them.

I agree this would be a great sticky note

SleepyEyes21 wrote:

Sonnyboy wrote:Krelvin included Johnny's message in his tnet site:

https://sleep.tnet.com/reference/docs/c ... moderation

Possibly this would be a great sticky.

Thanks for posting this, Sonnyboy- I stand corrected!

Can Krelvin find the date that Johnny G. said/ posted this, and put it in his post to lend validity?

Johnny states '...his approach to moderating is well known...', however I am a fairly new member and do not know the Goodmans, and I'm sure there are plenty of newer members who also do not know them.

I agree this would be a great sticky note

I have emailed Krelvin for the date.
Here is an old version worth looking at:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20895&p=179739&hili ... on#p179739
I remember Johnny sent a later version but have not located it yet.