Opponents of universal health care in the US

[JohnBFisher]

... Insurance is part of your compensation package. You lose your job, you lose your salary AND your insurance. You are free to find health ins OUTSIDE your employer's plan if you like...at least for the time being!

Are you serious? Have you ever priced insurance if you have a chronic condition? You are joking, right? No, seriously. You MUST be joking.

I have Type 2 Diabetes and Sporadic OPCA. I would be lucky if I could find an insurance company that would underwrite me, let alone price it so I could ever afford it.

It's easy to make money if you only insure healthy people who never get sick. And worse yet, you can save even more money if you decide not to pay for coverage (or throw them off insurance) once they do get sick. And yes, that really does happen.

A few years back in our area, one of the healthcare insurance companies decided to NOT insure anyone using the local hospital system in our area. That seemed to be okay because there are other hospitals in the general area. It's about an hour away, but it should be fine.

Unfortunately, they also denied coverage to ANYTHING related to that hospital. So, suddenly we had a huge stack of bills because my wife was being treated for skin cancer. Nothing serious, but the insurance company REFUSED to pay it. Now understand we never set foot in the hospital. But never the less, the insurance company denied claims from the imaging center for x-rays and the diagnostic center and the physicians and surgeons who had privileges at the hospital.

We are fortunate. We had savings that allowed us to pay for the costs. And it was nothing very serious.

What made this even more outrageous is that very same year the insurance company which denied all these claims (for which they were legally obligated) had just awarded their outgoing CEO a stock option of almost one billion dollars. Yes. That is $1,000,000,000. And they could not afford to cover our very valid claim? Give me a break.

I also fear government intervention will make things worse. However, the system is seriously broken now.

[WearyOne]

I have a LOT of comments I could make on this topic, but I learned a few months back that I don't do well in debates on this forum regarding OT such as healthcare because my very conservative views bring out the head-chopping, foul language, and rude comments of a few (not all) that I would rather not deal with. Some people are able to carry on a civil debates; others are not. But I just wanted to quote a few posts (or parts of posts) of which I agree completely.

I'm uninsured right now. And although it's very difficult to pay for my healthcare, I certainly have never been denied care because I don't have insurance. In fact, every doctor's office visit I've had, once they found out I was uninsured, discounted their office visit without my even asking. (Two specialists and an ophthalmologist.) And yes, if I had a major hospital thing, I'd be in debt in a major way. Because of my pre-existing conditions, I can't afford to buy individual coverage (almost $600 a month just for me with huge deductible) since my husband lost the one of his jobs (the one with the insurance) and I'm self-employed (very small business). But I'd rather have it this way than the healthcare reform bill AS IT IS NOW. Yes, healthcare coverage needs more than a major overhaul, but certainly not what is being offered up right now.

Thanks to the posters below, and others with similar intelligent viewpoints.

- [part] I work extremely hard for my money, and I resent it being taken from me by force and used to fund programs that are not truly needed, that do not benefit everyone, or that do not reflect my religious values. Although universal health care would benefit everyone, it is not truly needed, and it is going to be expensive beyond everyone's imagination. Don't believe what Congress is telling you, we 'sheeple' are in for a serious 'fleecing' unless we take a strong stand against this Socialist madness.

What the health care system really needs is a thorough purging of the rampant greed that is nearly inherent in the current system, and the creation of wide-open competition. We also need to be able to decide our own care for ourselves (and be responsible for the consequences).

Health care is not an inalienable right. Our freedom to live without being controlled and fed upon by Government is. And this is the meaning that was written into the Declaration of Independence. Also notice that the 'pursuit of happiness' is an inalienable right, not happiness per se. 'Life' is closely associated with 'liberty'-- someone who is under Government control has given up both their life and their liberty.

By the time this is all done, our overall taxes will have increased 15 to 30 percent. We will be told what to do, what to eat, when to exercise, etc. Our alternative choices will be cut off. For instance, imagine being FORCED to get a xPAP machine through a DME, paying their ridiculous price or co-pay and having no say in what machine we get. (And they call that 'medical necessity'-- you get only the absolute minimum to do the job. It isn't important that it doesn't work as well as it could. And it will be illegal to work around the system. Some doctors and DME are doing this already, invoking the name of 'the chosen one' in defending their decision.) This bill also give the Government sweeping powers to look into our personal finances, etc. This is all plain WRONG! (Yes, some of this might not be in the bill, but it will have to come, as things like obesity are now considered 'social problems'...

Medicare is a disaster.....approximately $80 BILLION a year in bogus claims that they have not been able to reduce.
H1N1 shots manufacture and distribution controlled by the government.....A DISASTER
Can't control the Drug companys because of the large political contributions to politicians.

What makes you think that the government can control a public option...much less Universal Health Care??????????

So true! The government hasn't controlled anything---no way they can control public option or universal healthcare!!

[part] Don't feel bad, he's a rampant Liberal... It's kind of fun to confuse him with facts occasionally, but soon gets tiring. When challenged to provide substantion, he goes beserk and gets nasty. Last time he started a whole new topic apologizing for his behavior. Then, two days later retracted his apology, then deleted the post retracting it.

The "Money" rant is just the latest simplistic concept he's latched onto.

There are plenty here who don't buy into the current "reform" plan, and are fearful about what it will do.

Yep, count me in.

I was looking forward to joining the discussions here at CPAPTALK but I, being a small business owner, who is small enough that I will not be affected either way the bill goes, oppose healthcare reform as as written and do not see it as reform at all. Reform can be accomplished without a 2000+ page implementation of of hogwash that is nothing more than a pure power grab. I wish after my 54 years I could look at things in the 2D world of autopapdude, but I can't. I love my country too much. I find autopapdude's proclamation that all that oppose the bill do so solely because of money, VERY OFFENSIVE, yet I notice only views opposing his was censored. IMHO his original post should of been nipped quickly as it is a useless attack on good people who have a different opinon than him and has no relevancy to ASO at all....

[Autopapdude]

ecause my very conservative views

Cut the crap. Very conservative views= don't want to spend tax dollars helping anyone else.

[JohnBFisher]

ecause my very conservative views

Cut the crap. Very conservative views= don't want to spend tax dollars helping anyone else.

Not necessarily. Nor really an appropriate response. The author did try to explain how he thinks and why. I value his position as I value yours. My hope is that through an honest and open discourse - which to me certainly does NOT appear to be happening in Washington DC at the moment by either side - we might expand our own thoughts.

[SaltLakeJan]

"

Cut the crap.

[/quote]

You do have the "right" to express your opinion. But, only a bully uses crude remarks to reply. I read your apology before, & I thought you were sincere. This forum is based on each of us helping another person. How about a different approach?

Jan

[PST]

For those "American Citizens" who legitimately can not get healthcare, I'm sure a solution other than total government takeover of healthcare can be found. However the government wants to cover "anybody here" and for procedures most of us do not want "our money" to pay for. Not saying I'm radical pro life, but I could not in good conscience allow my money to be used for abortions and I should not be made to contribute to fund them. IMHO Government can't pull it off... No Way.

The bills passed in the Senate and the House both prohibit the use of any funds either to cover illegal aliens or to pay for abortion (except in case of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother). For illegal aliens, that is in section 1312(f)(3) of the Senate bill and section 347 of the House bill. The abortion provisions are section 1303 of the Senate bill, which substantially follows the longstanding Hyde amendments to Medicaid, and section 265 of the House bill, the Stupak amendment, which has been highly lauded by pro-life advocates for extra measures to prevent any commingling of federal funds with any other funds that could pay for abortion. I'm not crazy about these myself, but they are in the bills in order to satisfy those who insisted on them. Therefore concerns that the government will cover "anybody here" or use taxpayer money to pay for abortions have been answered and should not be a reason for opposing either bill.

[WillSucceed]

Really interesting comments on both sides of of this issue.

Canada has had universal health care for a long time and, over the course of my 52 years, the only person who ever told me what I could or could not eat, was my mother. I can't believe that some of you think that health care reform would actually exert control over your life; such an alarmist perspective -sheesh!

As noted by several posters, universal health care is expensive and, if the US goes this route, will likely mean a tax increase. Knowing that I can see my Dr., get any test, procedure, treatment, surgery, etc., that I need without having to go bankrupt makes every penny in taxes that I pay worth it. I'm glad I live in Canada and don't have to worry about health care.

[Guess I Dont Belong Here]

g

ecause my very conservative views

Cut the crap. Very conservative views= don't want to spend tax dollars helping anyone else.

Then I can assume you are for everything the government wants, so long as it's someone else who has to pay the extra taxes to pay for it (those evil rich people). Why don't you offer to ante up your own blood and treasure for the policies you so strongly support. Oh that's right, it's the responsibility of the rich to do the paying and you to dictate the spending. I want nothing from nobody and I do not need the rich to be taxed to benefit me. I am a free American, I will take responsibility for myself and my family. If I hit upon hard times... I'll work harder and longer... FREEDOM is worth it. If you do not want freedom, please respect my right to speak up for my freedom. Dude this aint about MONEY and you will learn this fact soon enough.

[PST]

I find autopapdude's proclamation that all that oppose the bill do so solely because of money, VERY OFFENSIVE, yet I notice only views opposing his was censored. IMHO his original post should of been nipped quickly as it is a useless attack on good people who have a different opinon than him and has no relevancy to ASO at all. Also, since it appears to be OK to assume people's stature and status, I predict autocpapdude is bigtime UNION.

I don't think anyone was censored. It looked to me like KengEsq withdrew a couple of posts himself. I've never heard of anyone being censored here for an opinion. I think people of all shades of opinion would object strenuously to that, unless it was something really vile.

I agree with GIDBH that autocpapdude's approach is not a good one to imitate. I assume that the observation that it should have been "nipped quickly" did not mean that someone should have deleted it.

[Guess I Dont Belong Here]

For those "American Citizens" who legitimately can not get healthcare, I'm sure a solution other than total government takeover of healthcare can be found. However the government wants to cover "anybody here" and for procedures most of us do not want "our money" to pay for. Not saying I'm radical pro life, but I could not in good conscience allow my money to be used for abortions and I should not be made to contribute to fund them. IMHO Government can't pull it off... No Way.

The bills passed in the Senate and the House both prohibit the use of any funds either to cover illegal aliens or to pay for abortion (except in case of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother). For illegal aliens, that is in section 1312(f)(3) of the Senate bill and section 347 of the House bill. The abortion provisions are section 1303 of the Senate bill, which substantially follows the longstanding Hyde amendments to Medicaid, and section 265 of the House bill, the Stupak amendment, which has been highly lauded by pro-life advocates for extra measures to prevent any commingling of federal funds with any other funds that could pay for abortion. I'm not crazy about these myself, but they are in the bills in order to satisfy those who insisted on them. Therefore concerns that the government will cover "anybody here" or use taxpayer money to pay for abortions have been answered and should not be a reason for opposing either bill.

PST.. I'll just say to you. You better actually read the bill yourself because yes there is the language you state, but, there is doubletalk elsewhere that allows both. Don't trust me... don't trust MSNBC... don't trust anybody. READ AND STUDY the bill. If you do you will have done more than most of our elected officials have done. That is for sure.

And Yes, I meant that had other posts been censored in opposition his post should of been deleted. If in fact NO posts were censored. Then I'm all about spirited, fair debate.

[Autopapdude]

Then I can assume you are for everything the government wants, so long as it's someone else who has to pay the extra taxes to pay for it (those evil rich people). Why don't you offer to ante up your own blood and treasure for the policies you so strongly support. Oh that's right, it's the responsibility of the rich to do the paying and you to dictate the spending. I want nothing from nobody and I do not need the rich to be taxed to benefit me. I am a free American, I will take responsibility for myself and my family. If I hit upon hard times... I'll work harder and longer... FREEDOM is worth it. If you do not want freedom, please respect my right to speak up for my freedom. Dude this aint about MONEY and you will learn this fact soon enough.

That is more crap. It is completely about money. Nobody would refuse FREE health care--people would consider it a great idea if they didn't have to pay for it. You just don't want any tax consequences for yourself, and are not honest enough to admit that. Don't confuse that with FREEDOM. Also, don't confuse it with hard work, as you can work all your life, and NOT afford hundreds of thousands of dollars in inflated health care bills, caused by greedy insurance companies bleeding people dry, and refusing to cover preexisting conditions. That isn't freedom, and you darn well it isn't. It is cash register mentality.

I agree with GIDBH that autocpapdude's approach is not a good one to imitate. I assume that the observation that it should have been "nipped quickly" did not mean that someone should have deleted it.

PST, my approach is based on an honest opinion. I am tired of excuses being made to deny people health care on all sorts of pretenses except for the truth. I HONESTLY believe it is all about money and not ideas, or governmental options, or belief systems. It is about greedy insurance companies and health care providers LYING to the public that universal health care will bankrupt them, and some people buy that garbage. It is also an unwillingness for individuals to reach out and share for the common good of the country they hold so dear--the USA, and its least fortunate citizens. It makes me sick that people are being so brainwashed as to believe that healthcare isn't a right, but is an evil entity that will bankrupt the country--that just isn't so, and it is making us all the worse as a nation for that reasoning.

[Guess I Dont Belong Here]

That is more crap. It is completely about money. Nobody would refuse FREE health care--people would consider it a great idea if they didn't have to pay for it. You just don't want any tax consequences for yourself, and are not honest enough to admit that. Don't confuse that with FREEDOM. Also, don't confuse it with hard work, as you can work all your life, and NOT afford hundreds of thousands of dollars in inflated health care bills, caused by greedy insurance companies bleeding people dry, and refusing to cover preexisting conditions. That isn't freedom, and you darn well it isn't. It is cash register mentality.

Sir, the only crap I'm hearing is coming from you... Answer the true questions my friend. Why do we need a 2000+ page monstrocity of a bill to begin addressing the problems you spew. Why not take the approach of changing those things that are unfair or unjust first, such as, dropping coverage or pre-existing conditions. That might take a page, maybe two. Then we can build from there through reasonable restricted regulation and free market pricipals.

You spout how we are full of CRAP. You prove to me or explain to me why we need a 2000+ page monstrocity of a bill to solve the problems you have stated and then maybe, just maybe, I won't tell you just how full of crap you are.

[-SWS]

Well, interestingly, I have seen opponents of U.S. national health care bring third-hand reports here of Canadians essentially longing for U.S. healthcare. And yet I honestly can't recall any Canadians, Australians, or contemporary Brits on this message board pointing out the American health care system and saying: "Wish we had the U.S. healthcare system instead." On the contrary all first-hand non-U.S. opinions that I am aware of seem to strongly prefer their national healthcare system over what the U.S. currently has.

Opponents of U.S. national healthcare pretty much guarantee that this country's economic infrastructure would go to "hell in a hand basket" because of national health care. And yet, strangely, the Canadians, Australians, and Brits who come here never seem to be aware that they are sitting in their own economic hand baskets in the midst of that same hell. On the contrary, they all seem pretty pleased with what they have---which is more than I can say about most Americans and their pathetic state of healthcare.

So, non-Americans with national healthcare, are there ANY of you out there who honestly long for the current American healthcare system? Or are there ANY of you out there who honestly think your economic infrastructure and/or social morality have gone to hell because of your national healthcare?

I'm interested in first-hand opinions only. And I'm definitely not interested in Americans who oppose national healthcare chasing down third-hand anecdotes that read like journalistic propaganda with a political bent. There has to be at least one of you out there who would just love to trade your national healthcare for what Americans currently have. Am I right or am I right? You're out there, as U.S. opponents of national healthcare assure us. Right?



HELLO???? ARE YOU OUT THERE?

[Guess I Dont Belong Here]

By the way... Just wanna say how much I love my new S8 AutoSet II. I even made me a repti hose.

(this is what I originally came here to say before autocpapdude decided to crap all over my values and morals)

[Guess I Dont Belong Here]

By the way... Just wanna say how much I love my new S8 AutoSet II. I even made me a repti hose.

(this is what I originally came here to say before autocpapdude decided to crap all over my values and morals)

Oh, and I paid for it myself even though I have insurance. I wanted what I wanted, not what they would want me to have. However, I don't see ole Uncle Sam's gonna be any looser about it when he takes over the show.