Angry

[Popinka]

Permit me to vent for a few lines.

I woke up this morning (slightly more refreshed again) angry. Why did my family doctor not alert me to the fact that I may have sleep apnea when I repeatedly went to his office complaining of fatigue. Nor did my psychiatrist to whom I complained of my constant fatigue despite being a basically happy person. They went to medical school and sleep apnea had been around for several decades...I am very overweight and was asking for energizing drugs (should have been a big clue) are they not obliged to keep themselves abreast of serious illnesses that might effect their patients?

I slept my way through most of undergrad and much of law school. I missed out on so many social/ life opportunities b/c I was too tired to live. I am only 29 and can only imagine what it must be like to be diagnosed with life long apnea much later in life. It makes me very said. I was

And what is it with the damnd insurance companies and gov't funding. It is not as though sleep apnea is not a clinically verifiable ailment. We are not asking for them to pay for special crystals to aid in psychic healing! (Irony is that I work in insurance litigation for insurance companies --don't hate me guys --its a job!). Several thousands of dollars to treat this is ridiculous (in Ontario I will be forced to pay $1200.00 in addition to the gov't funded portion of the CPAP for an obligatory service package, utter usurous Bul&&*%$^ as far as I am concerned). I hate that profit motives are getting the way of people's treatment and feel that gov't should intervene --either through adequate funding of trxt or through regulation. I am lucky that my husband and I both have private insurance and have highly paying jobs. What if we were not so fortunate (particularly if sleep apnea prevented you from functioning at work, and economic hardship was a predictable outcome of the disease). And talk about false economies...at 29 you can pay for my CPAP or at 49 you can take care of me after a stroke. Absolutely wrong.

Sorry, don't mean to be so negative and do feel blessed that I got my diagnosis sooner rather than later. The gravity of what I have lost and what I may be up against is starting to set in now.

[jean19540_0]

HELLO THERE,
I FEEL SO ANGRY WHEN I LISTERN TO YOU TALKING ABOUT, INSURANCE COSTS & PAYING FOR THIS PIECE OF EQUIPEMENT & THAT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.
IT'S NOT JUST YOU, IT'S EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRYS THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO PAY SUCH HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY, MUCH OF WHICH IS ILLAFORDED, ALL THOSE PEOPLE ON NO, OR LOW WAGES, EVEN IF THEY EARN A DECENT AMOUNT, WHY THE HELL SHOULD VAST INSURANCE COMPANYS MAKE MONEY OUT OF ILLNESS & HEALTH IN GENERAL? YOU KNOW I FEEL SO FORTUNATE TO BE LIVING IN THE UK, WITH OUR NHS. PEOPLE MOAN & GROAN ABOUT TRIVIAL THINGS IN THE NHS, BUT ITS THERE, ITS FREE & EVERYBODY GETS THE TREATMENT THEY NEED.
OK YOU GET SOME PEOPLE WHO ABUSE THE SYSTEM, BUT FOR SOMEBODY LIKE MYSELF WHO HAS MANY MAJOR PROBLEMS, & TAKING HUGE AMOUNTS OF MEDICATION, TO BASICALLY KEEP ME ALIVE , IT IS A GODSEND. IF I WAS TO LIVE IN USA I WOULD PROBABLY NOT GET HEALTH INSURANCE (TO MANY PROBLEMS)
AS I CANT EVEN GET HOLIDAY INSURANCE HERE WITHOUT COLOSAL LOADING, BUT THE MAJORITY OF COMPANIES JUST SAY NO. TO MUCH RISK. IF I LIVED OUTSIDE THE UK I WOULD BE IN ONE BIG MESS.
AS I SAID SOME ABUSE THE SYSTEM, BUT YOU ALWAYS GET THOSE WHO ABUSE A GOOD THING, BUT ITS THE MOST BRILLIANT SYSTEM, I NEVER, EVER TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.
PEOPLE LIKE US WHO HAVE OSA NEED TREATMENT, OUR LIVES COULD DEPEND ON IT, PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUGAR DIABETIES NEED TREATMENT, THEIR LIVES DO DEPEND ON IT, AND THE LIST GOES ON & ON.
HAS YOU SAID YOUR GOVERNMENT NEED TO DO SOMETHING, BUT THEY WONT, THEIR MULTI-MILLIONAIRES, PROBABLY DIRECTORS OF THESE BIG INSURANCE COMPANIES, THEIR LINING THEIR OWN POCKETS ARNT THEY?
TO ME, THE WHOLE SYSTEM NEEDS SORTING, HEALTH PREVENTION & HEALTH PROBLEMS, NEED TO BE ADDRESSED, PEOPLE NEED MEDICAL TREATMENT & THEY SHOULD GET IT WITHOUT HAVING TO DIG INTO THEIR PURSES.

[wading thru the muck!]

Look out, we have an angry litigation attorney on our hands

Popinka,

Thanks for "venting". These were similar to my sentiments when I finally got diagnosed. It's very empowering to hear from others that have come to the same realization. I hope your road from diagnosis to treatment has been a good one. In my case I feel I was left to fend for myself. Luckily I took up the challenge and have become stonger for it. This condition or disease or whatever you what to call it, is banished to medical limbo. As you say, we are not asking for magic crystals! As far as the profit motive, luckily we have folks like cpap.com to provide a sense of reality in the equipment portion of our journey. Before them (and others like them) the local DME's had an effective monopoly on our healthcare and used it to charge at rates 3 times what's necessary to make a reasonable profit. Working for an insurance company I would think you would be disturbed by the circumstance where the insureds "out of pocket" expense is equal to the online "total" price. In these cases the additional several thousand dollars paid by the insurance company is total profit for the DMEs. For all that huge profit do they in turn provide excellent service? not in my experience.

Now I've had a chance to vent, again.

Thanks

[chrisp]

Jean, I think Popinka lives in Canada where they have national health. As for NHS in the UK I have read many posts complaining about long waiting periods to get tested. Then another long wait for a sleep specialist. Then another wait for a machine. However , Iif you have private pay it is nearly instantanious . Even at the same clinic (surgery). I'm originally from UK and have family in UK. Heard of the people whom drive hundereds of miles to see a NHS dentist since none in their area will accept new petients. Here in the USA in my small town we have several MRI units with no waiting . My employer requires its contract insurance provider to accept all reguardless of prior conditions. Oh yes , and our gasoline doesn't cost $6 a gallon to pay for all this "FREE" medical care.

I love the UK and have Deep Roots there . However, One just has to go to the BBC news to see that there are big problems . It is so bad in some areas that councils are considering placeing defibrulators on garbage (bin) trucks to shorten response times since ambulances are so scarce.
Lest I forget. Londons air ambulance is donated by Virgin . Its not NHS.
We have more air ambulances at our local airport than the entire UK. All non government operations.
Yes we have problems in the USA However we also have the best healthcare in the world..

Cheers,

Chris

[Popinka]

Not being from the U.S. I cannot comment on others experience. Annecdotally, I hear that it is a mixed bag. Provided you can afford private insurance, and you are basically not an underwriter's nightmare (i.e. have a plethora of problems) you are O.K. Ironically it is often those people who need the funding most. My impression is that those that are working poor...i.e. are not gov't funded but do not have great coverage through their employer's often fall through the cracks. To be fair despite being an ostensibly private system-- the U.S. still manages to spend an inordinate amount on healthcare per capita and has its own set of problems. My American chums can correct me if I am wrong.

Problem in Canada is that we are basically in transition from socialzed medicine to a U.S. private system at present. As a hybrid system we have the worst of all worlds and are getting fu&*% at both ends --- i.e. greedy medical supply and pharmeceutical companies that are not being disciplined by the market and normal laws of supply and demand which would discipline price points as they would in a private market. Although I believe in univeral health, I think there is some question in Canada (and several N. Eurpean counties) when it is sustainable from an economic perspective. My view is that while the transition to a more market based system is taking place gov't should not hesitate to lay the boots to companies which are taking advantage of a vulnerable consumer (through obligatory service packages or terribly expensive masks which are not covered -- consider the obsurdity of covering a wheelchair without the wheels!). I also think that classic conservaties who beleived in the utlility of a market economy also realized the ethical necessity of providing for the most vulnerable --- to those to whom much is given much is expected. Problem is much of this is lost on neo-conservatives in Canada who know nothing of their own history and so called compassionate conservatives in the U.S. who are as far from "Christian" as one could imagine.

Sorry for the rant I'll stop now!

[Guest]

Heathcare in the U.S. is good IF you can get it! I would say a fair amount of people DO NOT have any medical insurance, don't qualify for Medicaid (free medical care) & are STUCK in the middle. Many employers don't offer group insurance anymore & then you are thrown to the health insurance company wolves who will reject you for the smallest reason. They WILL NOT cover you if you have sleep apnea & are applying for an idividual policy. It's fine to say the U.S. has great health care, but don't forget to add that it's only IF you have your own private insurance (VERY expensive) or coverage through work. Too many people take for granted thier health coverage. Most people would give their right arm for some coverage at all. I haven't been to the dr. in 15 months because I can't afford to go.
Also, I was angry, too, when I was first diagnosed. It took years for a dr. to discover what was wrong! When I developed asthma it took 5 months of trips to "specialists", the ER, etc, for ONE dr. to finally figure it out. By then I was half dead crawling on the floor to catch my breath. Then I almost bled to death...that was a long, slow, torturous, ordeal. It wasn't until I was at deaths door again, after seeing numerous "specialists", that my current dr. looked at me & knew what was wrong. I think health care in the U.S. is sadly lacking & not much better than heath care abroad.

[wading thru the muck!]

HEALTH PREVENTION & HEALTH PROBLEMS, NEED TO BE ADDRESSED, PEOPLE NEED MEDICAL TREATMENT & THEY SHOULD GET IT WITHOUT HAVING TO DIG INTO THEIR PURSES.

Jean! To pay for your healthcare one has to dig into someone's purse. If not yours, whose?

How have we gotten to the point as citizens of this planet that our "just existing" gives us the right to reach into everyone elses pocketbook to pay for our needs (and wants). Don't tell me the government will pay for it. The government can't give anything to someone that it hasn't taken away from someone else.

I could go on an on and on but I won't today...

[littlebaddow]

IMHO the systems of healthcare in the UK, USA and Canada all have their merits and faults, but at least we have health systems and, in one way or another, we are all managing to get treatment for our conditions.

[wading thru the muck!]

Thanks littlebaddow,

Look at another poster "surly abonds" in India, he has to use the computer in the book repository and spend all his rupees to get treatment. Even he is finally getting a machine.This world is a wonderful place.

[snamvar]

I am really questioning the motives in the U.S. as why the psychiatrists and doctors prescribe sleep or depression medication, as soon as you tell them about sleep problems and fatigue. First of all, they want you to keep going back to them every couple of months to see your progress or try a different medication Then there are the Multi billion dollar drug companies that need to sell/promote their drugs through the doctros with all kind of incentives.
If OSA is detected early and you are succefully treated with CPAP, then the whole system does not profit from your problem. It sucks

[wading thru the muck!]

snamvar,

It really isn't a conspiracy. The fact is the drug companies spend millions on demonstrating the efficacy of their products. With cpap we are left to debate the relative effectivness of the equipment and masks on forums like this. Our main resource for efficacy reference is SWS and I'm sure he comes at low or no cost HA! SWS how much do you charge? (a rhetorical question of course). The doctors go with the demonstrated "sure thing" before prescribing the unknown cpap therapy. Maybe we are asking for some sort of magic crystal treatment (to paraphrase popinka).

[rested gal]

Popinka, please never stop ranting. For one thing, Wader loves to hear it. (And so do I. ) You are very articulate. You raise great points.

One of the things you mentioned....

They went to medical school and sleep apnea had been around for several decades...

I doubt sleep disorders were touched on much - probably still not much - in medical schools. Not a very glamorous subject - "sleep" - to most doctors. I'd just about bet that if you polled doctors all over the U.S. for the first sleep disorder that leaps to their minds, it would be "insomnia" rather than "obstructive sleep apnea." In the wake of publicity about Reggie White's death, a few more than usual might mention sleep apnea.

As a side note, there was a very interesting thread on the TAS message board last year, about possible reasons for doctors' lack of interest in (and empathy with) sleep disorder patients. The post by mstevens (a doctor who uses cpap) was particularly enlightening:

Topic: Excessive Sleepiness and an analogy leading to lack of compassion by doctors

There was a study published last year in the New England Journal of Medicine, regarding the the medical profession's hallowed tradition of requiring young interns to work sleep-depriving long shifts. That tradition probably hasn't changed much:

Effect of Reducing Interns' Work Hours on Serious Medical Errors in Intensive Care Units

[Guest]

Hi Wading,
I get your point. But with depression and fatigue as one of it's symptoms, They first get you on Paxil, the Zoloft, then .... and this goes on for years sometimes. I think at some point, they mst say that this is not working completely and maybe the root of the problem is something else.

[wading thru the muck!]

Hi Guest/snamvar?,

I agree it's not right, I'm just explaining why. This fact is part of the reason we are all here fighting to be recognized and treated.

No one can say us cpap'ers are spending a sleepy Saturday in the middle of January vegetating.

Thanks for all the great conversation.

[SleepyGuy]

Permit me to vent for a few lines.

I woke up this morning (slightly more refreshed again) angry. Why did my family doctor not alert me to the fact that I may have sleep apnea when I repeatedly went to his office complaining of fatigue. Nor did my psychiatrist to whom I complained of my constant fatigue despite being a basically happy person. They went to medical school and sleep apnea had been around for several decades...I am very overweight and was asking for energizing drugs (should have been a big clue) are they not obliged to keep themselves abreast of serious illnesses that might effect their patients?

Thank you Popinka. I try not to let myself think about these things or I would get really angry too. I must have been to at least a half dozen doctors for fatigue over a ten year period before one finally said, "I really think you are a strong candidate for sleep apnea and should be checked."

I've been fatigued to the point of being virtually disabled for ten years and I've always felt my energy was below average.

I'm 47. My grandfather died of a stroke at age 59 after many years of unexplained fatigue. If I hadn't finally gotten a diagnosis, that is almost certainly where I was headed.

Why don't doctors take this seriously? Doctors can be the victims of their prejudices just as much as anyone else. What's worse is their arrogance prevents them from seeing it. They simply fail to realize that not all sleep is the same.

For how many decades did doctors tell us that stomach ulcers were caused by stress? Today we now know they are caused by a bacteria and can be cured by two weeks on a combination of antibiotics. Meanwhile, farmers had been using these same drugs to cure ulcers in pigs since the 1950s. Again, the prejudices of the doctors got in the way.