Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by zoocrewphoto » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:49 pm

idamtnboy wrote:
zoocrewphoto wrote:My sister does not have insurance and will continue to not have insurance. For the small amount of health care she currently uses, the monthly premiums and high deductible don't make sense. She is better off paying out of pocket.
Is Washington one of the states that opted not to increase the eligibility for Medicaid after the SC said they didn't have to comply with that provision in the ACA?

I don't think so. Washington is almost a 50/50 state, but democrat usually wins. So, I can't imagine anything being done to go against the ACA. THis is one state that did its own website.


That ruling allowed the anti-ACA state legislatures to really screw up the implementation. A lot of people who would have qualified for Medicaid now find they are in the gap that isn't covered by the subsidy provision of ACA. My daughter in Louisiana is in the same boat. Maybe she would be better off to dump car insurance and pay for medical insurance.
Have you ever given up your car insurance? It's against the law to drive and not have insurance. And, she has to drive a lot. She can't just give up her car. Also, if you let your car insurance expire, and then try to get insurance, you get a rate that is triple the normal rate due to being irresponsible. It takes years to get back down to a normal rate. That is NOT a good idea.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by idamtnboy » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:41 am

zoocrewphoto wrote:Have you ever given up your car insurance? It's against the law to drive and not have insurance. And, she has to drive a lot. She can't just give up her car. Also, if you let your car insurance expire, and then try to get insurance, you get a rate that is triple the normal rate due to being irresponsible. It takes years to get back down to a normal rate. That is NOT a good idea.
That right there is a good example of how expensive it is to be poor.

I went without car insurance for a few months 30 years ago when we were at a low point financially. Was not a comfortable position to be in.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by zoocrewphoto » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:52 am

idamtnboy wrote:
zoocrewphoto wrote:Have you ever given up your car insurance? It's against the law to drive and not have insurance. And, she has to drive a lot. She can't just give up her car. Also, if you let your car insurance expire, and then try to get insurance, you get a rate that is triple the normal rate due to being irresponsible. It takes years to get back down to a normal rate. That is NOT a good idea.
That right there is a good example of how expensive it is to be poor.

I went without car insurance for a few months 30 years ago when we were at a low point financially. Was not a comfortable position to be in.

I think the laws are much more harsh now. Get pulled over without insurance, and you get an expensive ticket and a guaranteed huge increase in insurance when you try to get it again.

Better to skimp on food and utilities. Not car insurance.

Health insurance may have a mandate now, but the penalty is still less than a ticket for no car insurance. And it you don't get punished later when you try to get it. So, it is a much better risk. And when you consider that the "cheap policies" have deductibles of $2000 or more, you are pretty much stuck paying out of pocket anyway. It only helps if something big happens. And then you can apply for medicaid.

I do hope the kinks get worked out better in the next few years. And if the economy improves a bit, my business could get better, and then I would be in a better situation by the time my insurance gets dumped in 3 years. And hopefully, my sister's new business will do well, and she won't be in this situation either. Neither one of us wants to end up on medicaid.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by 49er » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:01 am

zoocrewphoto wrote:
idamtnboy wrote:
zoocrewphoto wrote:Have you ever given up your car insurance? It's against the law to drive and not have insurance. And, she has to drive a lot. She can't just give up her car. Also, if you let your car insurance expire, and then try to get insurance, you get a rate that is triple the normal rate due to being irresponsible. It takes years to get back down to a normal rate. That is NOT a good idea.
That right there is a good example of how expensive it is to be poor.

I went without car insurance for a few months 30 years ago when we were at a low point financially. Was not a comfortable position to be in.

I think the laws are much more harsh now. Get pulled over without insurance, and you get an expensive ticket and a guaranteed huge increase in insurance when you try to get it again.

Better to skimp on food and utilities. Not car insurance.

Health insurance may have a mandate now, but the penalty is still less than a ticket for no car insurance. And it you don't get punished later when you try to get it. So, it is a much better risk. And when you consider that the "cheap policies" have deductibles of $2000 or more, you are pretty much stuck paying out of pocket anyway. It only helps if something big happens. And then you can apply for medicaid.

I do hope the kinks get worked out better in the next few years. And if the economy improves a bit, my business could get better, and then I would be in a better situation by the time my insurance gets dumped in 3 years. And hopefully, my sister's new business will do well, and she won't be in this situation either. Neither one of us wants to end up on medicaid.
It is pretty sad when someone has to chose between food and utilities vs. car insurance. vs. health insurance.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by Ontario CPAP » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:45 am

ddk wrote:I will never understand the thinking behind fighting against free healthcare for all citizens of a nation. It's just bizarre to me that people would not only want to prevent access to it for others but also for their friends, family and themselves. It truly boggles my mind.
As others have pointed out, health care is far, far, far from free. The question for societies to answer is how it is paid for.

Here is a link to the budget for the province of Ontario (population 13 million) few years and for this coming year.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/onta ... #ch2_t2-24 (this is from the government's own website.)

Have a look at the heath care line -- $44 billion in 2010/2011, and almost $49 billion in 2013/2014 -- an increase of $5 billion in three years, and that is projected to continue to grow much faster than inflation. As I've pointed out earlier, scaled up to the population of the US, that's over $1 trillion per year.

Health care dwarfs all other government expenditures; it's twice the elementary school / secondary school education budget. The other provinces have similar budgets in terms of break-down, although not as large as Ontario's owing to their smaller populations.

...and heath care is not entirely free to the individual either, although between government coverage and employer benefits, topped up with some private insurance, few Canadians are out of pocket for very much. Unemployed people, however, have only the government coverage, and thus have access to basic care at no cost, however they will be out of pocket for procedures considered elective -- which pretty much means anything non-critical, as well as almost all dental and optical. These latter services are almost always covered by employer benefits and private insurance.

Let me give you some hypothetical situations to explain what the Canadian system is like.

Scenario 1: You have a heart attack. Assuming you are in an urban area, paramedics will arrive in minutes, and take you to the nearest hospital. You'll be admitted to emergency, and treated according to your condition. If you need by-pass surgery or a stent, you'll be scheduled for surgery according to your condition. You may wait a couple of weeks or months. Only if you are truly in dire condition will you receive your surgery immediately or within days. Cost to you: $0, but you may wait a while.

Scenario 2: You tear a tendon in your knee skiing. You may be taken to ambulance to a nearby hospital, admitted to emergency and may wait a couple of minutes or hours depending on how busy they are. You may receive a fiberglass cast, and be discharged. Cost to you: $0. However follow-up physiotherapy is usually not covered by the government. You'll need employer benefits or private insurance to cover that. Cost to you: hundreds of $ unless you have your own insurance.

Scenario 3: You need a root canal. The province will cover the cost of extracting the tooth entirely, but if you want a proper root canal by an endodontist, you'll need to pay directly, and even then employer benefits usually cover half the cost. Same with the crown. Cost to you: over a thousand unless you have your own insurance, in which case you're still paying hundreds.

The Canadian system designed to ensure everyone has basic health care -- basic meaning the level of heath care that can keep you relatively healthy and alive. There's a LOT of health care options out there that are not covered that are being paid for by employers and individuals above and beyond the almost $50 billion the province is paying.

At the risk of igniting another debate on capitalism vs. socialism, Canada has a capitalism driven economy (we have far, far fewer state controlled "Crown corporations" than 30 years ago -- most of them have been privatized) but our governments provide a significant amount of social support paid for through taxes. This only works if a society can accomplish two things:

1) Create a environment in which private business succeed and consumers spend, so that significant taxes (sales and income taxes being the largest) can be collected without harming the economic engines that create wealth. This is the capitalist part.

2) Design the social programs to protect themselves from abuse and over-use by the citizens themselves. Socialism works if people take out of the system the minimum they require of it -- when everyone pulls as much as they possibly can from the system, it will collapse. Does this mean heath care in Canada is rationed according to need? Absolutely. It must for the system to not collapse. This is why I had to go to my GP first in order to schedule a sleep study. He, not I, determined I needed the service, at which point the government covered the cost of the study. Had I gone straight to the sleep clinic, I would have had to pay out of pocket.

Going back to an earlier post of mine, Canadians have a slightly different relationship with our government than our friends south of the border. We tend to be more accepting of our government rationing of heath care. Do we like it? No. Do we live with it? Yes. Are we socialists? Not exactly. A large percentage of the population do proudly call themselves socialists, but we have an even larger percentage that are conservative, even libertarian. We currently have a very conservative federal government (in fact they are called the Conservative Party of Canada) yet at the provincial levels the same citizens who elected them elect liberal (in the case of Ontario) and even socialist (New Democratic Party) governments. We have a dual capitalist / socialist society that's hard to explain unless you spend some time here.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by robysue » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:08 am

Ontario CPAP wrote: As others have pointed out, health care is far, far, far from free. The question for societies to answer is how it is paid for.

Here is a link to the budget for the province of Ontario (population 13 million) few years and for this coming year.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/onta ... #ch2_t2-24 (this is from the government's own website.)

Have a look at the heath care line -- $44 billion in 2010/2011, and almost $49 billion in 2013/2014 -- an increase of $5 billion in three years, and that is projected to continue to grow much faster than inflation. As I've pointed out earlier, scaled up to the population of the US, that's over $1 trillion per year.
And the total amount spent in the US on health care reached $2.7 trillion in 2011, and it's gone up since then. And in the US health care costs continue to rise far faster than inflation. (See http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics- ... lights.pdf for documentation on total US spending on health care for the 2011 figures.)

Now it's true that the US Government and the total spending by the individual states is nowhere near $2.7 trillion dollars. But those health care $$$$ come out of our pockets in one way or another regardless. And it seems highly unlikely to me that this country that I love so much will ever manage to get the total per capita spending down to levels that are comparable to what the rest of the world spends as long as we insist on keeping our crazy mix of employer provided health insurance (for some), government subsidized health care for the old (Medicare), government health care for the poor (Medicaid), and some 40 million uninsured people

To put it bluntly: Ontario's single payer system delivers decent quality health care to all (or almost all) Ontario residents for well less than half the price per person per year than our crazy American system does.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by BlackSpinner » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:50 am

Wulfman... wrote:
There is no "FREE" healthcare. Somebody has to pay for it.


Den

.
Yes and selfish greedy bastards don't want the cost spread out. It really illuminates the American psyche that they are too greedy to help their own sick and injured, It makes people think twice about their world political involvement. Do we really want to have a nation like that on our side, one that abandons its weakest citizens, how can the rest of the world trust people like that?

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by bamelin » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:02 am

BlackSpinner wrote:
Wulfman... wrote:
There is no "FREE" healthcare. Somebody has to pay for it.


Den

.
Yes and selfish greedy bastards don't want the cost spread out. It really illuminates the American psyche that they are too greedy to help their own sick and injured, It makes people think twice about their world political involvement. Do we really want to have a nation like that on our side, one that abandons its weakest citizens, how can the rest of the world trust people like that?
Mmm I don't think that's what is being said. I think that some people are just voicing concerns that their quality of life will be impacted "helping" those who refuse to help themselves. There is a big difference between helping those that need help and can't help themselves, versus those that need help because they refuse to help themselves.

Speaking for myself, the Canadian health care system has saved my bacon more times than I can count. I've been able to get help for IBS, my CPAP machine mostly paid for (including visits to the sleep clinic and doctor visits) ... stuff I wouldn't have been able to afford as I am on a long term temporary full time position (good salary but no insurance benefits -- been here for almost a year now).

That's actually been the case for me with many of my jobs ... good middle class type positions but all on contract/temporary perm type positions. More and more companies are moving to that sort of work so they don't have to pay benefits.


Overall, while I understand the arguments behind the US point of view on healthcare (those that want each individual to pay his or her own way), I do think there is a happy medium to be found that weighs the costs to society. In the end going forward, we are all (in Canada AND the US) see health care costs increase. The first wave of age 65+ boomers are hitting the system, and numerically boomers will still have the vote for the next 20 years or so. You can count on tax increases to fund everything from old age pensions to more health care entitlements.

As somebody in their 30's that worries me alot ... how we are going to pay for all of this (it will be off the backs of Gen X and Millenials).

But I'm going off track. On the subject of health care, if I had to choose between US or Canadian system I'd pick Canadian. While I'm taxed to death, I know that I've taken advantage of every benefit the government has offered to help me get ahead ... from healthcare that doesn't cost me out of pocket, to free education (Second Career), to Employment Insurance programs and yes even welfare when I was a much younger man.

All of these safety nets gave me a "hand up" in life, allowing me to break out of the working class and into a decent middle class life. For that I'm eternally grateful.
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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by Julie » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:25 am

You know, you're all so ready to keep millions from affordable care on the off chance a few 'cheaters' or freeloaders will (god forbid) sneak in and get treated for what may well be valid disease or injury, but what happened to plain decency? So a few people will take advantage of programs, so what? It happens all the time anyhow in all kinds of situations, not just health care. You see this one up front because it's being politicized, but you're probably contributing in lots of ways to other things that are just not so public, but rather than getting to the bottom of those - too much like work? - you're going to bear down on the weakest just to make your point. Pathetic.

And for crying out loud, find another way to say you don't believe in universal care for some issues - you elected the government to oversee and take care of your own people, but dragging out the old tired "socialist' from the 50's as if socialism or socialists were in fact ogres and bogey men is ridiculous, plus with the rest of the world on board about health care, don't you see that you're anachronistic in the extreme - time to get with it and stop whining!

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by Ontario CPAP » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:04 pm

robysue wrote:
Now it's true that the US Government and the total spending by the individual states is nowhere near $2.7 trillion dollars. But those health care $$$$ come out of our pockets in one way or another regardless. And it seems highly unlikely to me that this country that I love so much will ever manage to get the total per capita spending down to levels that are comparable to what the rest of the world spends as long as we insist on keeping our crazy mix of employer provided health insurance (for some), government subsidized health care for the old (Medicare), government health care for the poor (Medicaid), and some 40 million uninsured people

To put it bluntly: Ontario's single payer system delivers decent quality health care to all (or almost all) Ontario residents for well less than half the price per person per year than our crazy American system does.
A very good point. Our heath care costs less per person than the US system for a few reasons.

1. Medial professionals (doctors, nurses, technicians, etc.) who offer services under the government system have their incomes regulated. You can earn a good living as a doctor in Canada, but you won't be making millions unless you offer services that aren't covered by the government and thus can charge directly to patients and/or insurance companies for their services. Examples include endodontists and fertility specialists.

2. We have very good services -- our critical care is on par with anywhere in the world, but we have less capacity available for non-critical case. Buffalo New York is a fraction of the size of Toronto, but I can drive there and get an MRI on a sore knee tomorrow, but in Toronto I need to wait months. It costs a lot more to have sufficient MRI machines such that someone can show up and get an appointment the next day than to have a few machines that are running at full capacity 24 / 7. Similarly, when I was younger, I had a full medial with my GP annually. Now, the Government only covers the cost of a full medical every two years. I can still pop in any time for a flu or other ailment, but I can't schedule a physical if I've already had one in the past 24 months. In other words, our heath care is rationed by the government. In the US, I suspect this would be grounds for another revolution.

3. With a different tort law system in Canada, we have far fewer malpractice cases, and thus lower malpractice insurance costs. In fact, I suspect hospitals and medical professionals operating under the government system are insured by the government itself, although I'm not sure how that works. What I do know is multi-million dollar lawsuits are rare in Canada. Awards, when won, tend to be modest. My understanding of the US system is doctors need to carry very expensive insurance, which is passed on to the customer as part of the medial service cost.
Last edited by Ontario CPAP on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by TonyG » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:30 pm

I am not sure why this site allows this thread to continue.It seems to be someone just trying to stir the s***. Notice another thread now about the British system started by the same person I believe.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by deerhound » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:23 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:
Wulfman... wrote:
There is no "FREE" healthcare. Somebody has to pay for it.


Den

.
Yes and selfish greedy bastards don't want the cost spread out. It really illuminates the American psyche that they are too greedy to help their own sick and injured, It makes people think twice about their world political involvement. Do we really want to have a nation like that on our side, one that abandons its weakest citizens, how can the rest of the world trust people like that?
Explain to me why wanting to keep what one has earned and not pay tons of money for another person's needs is greedy and wanting someone else to pay for all of your desires is not greedy? Seems to me you have it backwards.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by Goofproof » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:13 pm

For many without health care, better life choices would allow them to have health ins, but then again that's a life choice isn't it.

My dad, made as good a life choices as he could, being a door to door salesman, many days of working up to 14 hours daily. He paid for ins, it wasn't great. My mom had medical problems when I was 8, 3 Cancer operations, heart trouble, diabetes, ect, left me with a poor gene pool. So we had many medical bills, ins helped but having a dad that tried to keep the wolf from the door was key.

We let the Jones live their lives, we made the hard choices. We didn't consider ourselves poor, many would, we were a work in progress. That's what the U.S. used to be about, working hard an overcoming adversity, becoming stronger in the end. This is the America I was born in and the rules I lived by, no longer its it P.C. to work and take care of yourself and your loved ones.

Nowdays the P.C. rules are, don't work, don't do without until you can afford it. Your neighbor will do without, to provide your needs, so will his family.

Don't read "The Ant and the Grasshopper", It no longer applys as a lesson model for life. You wanted "Change", you are getting it, but leave those pennies on the ground, bending over to pick them up is too much like WORK! Jim
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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by idamtnboy » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:29 pm

deerhound wrote:Explain to me why wanting to keep what one has earned and not pay tons of money for another person's needs is greedy and wanting someone else to pay for all of your desires is not greedy? Seems to me you have it backwards.
If you subscribe to the idea that "it's every man for himself" and each man must sink or swim according to his own efforts, even if that means going hungry and being sick, and believe it is unjustified to have the government confiscate part of your labor's reward to alleviate hunger and sickness, then no, it is not being greedy.

If the ideal of "we're all in this together" is valid, and you refuse to share your labor's rewards, then you are being greedy.

If a person WANTS someone to pay for all their desires, then that is being greedy.

If a person NEEDS someone to help pay for their basic necessities of life, and accepts that help, that is not being greedy.

Being poor DOES NOT EQUATE to "wanting someone else to pay." Most poor people, especially the working poor, don't really WANT to have to ask for help. They do it out of desperation, or resignation when all their best efforts have come to naught.

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Re: Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

Post by PST » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:22 pm

SuddenlyWornOut45 wrote:Honestly, go fuck yourself with your socialist, libtard beliefs and attitudes.
Honestly, I don't care that you are using the word "fuck" in 3.3 percent of your posts, sometimes repeatedly, or why you feel a need to do so. But when some newbie joins up and promptly starts telling the oldtimers to go fuck themselves, he wears out his welcome fast. Why don't you go away, read the forum guidelines, and make a fresh start in 2014.