Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

SuddenlyWornOut45 wrote:And what is wrong with that? That is the way its always been. Do you think businesses are a charity or something?

A discussion today with Henry Ford would be very interesting.

From http://corporate.ford.com/news-center/p ... llar-a-day

Henry Ford had reasoned that since it was now possible to build inexpensive cars in volume, more of them could be sold if employees could afford to buy them. The $5 day helped better the lot of all American workers and contributed to the emergence of the American middle class. In the process, Henry Ford had changed manufacturing forever.

From http://web.bryant.edu/~ehu/h364proj/sum ... page3.html

"The payment of five dollars a day for an eight-hour day was one of the finest cost-cutting moves we ever made," Ford said.
.....
Despite these troubles, the Five Dollar Day was revolutionary in that it focused on worker morale to increase efficiency and productivity. The enlightened new labor rules, the five-dollar minimum, and the struggle of the sociological department to raise living standards was a model worthy of imitation for all manufacturing companys in that period. Unforutunately, however, many viewed Ford as a "mad socialist" because of his plan, which at the time was providing him with more money than anyone else in the country.

To My Democrat Friends:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or explicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2014, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.

To My Republican Friends:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/12/103977- ... publicans/

I take it you're an 'old school' GOP'er and it would be nice if we can have a rational conversation!

Julie wrote:

I take it you're an 'old school' GOP'er and it would be nice if we can have a rational conversation!

No, actually I'm considered an extremest right wing conservative pea brained I-D-I-O-T by some on this forum!

id·i·ot
ˈidēət/
noun informal
1. a stupid person.
synonyms: fool, ass, halfwit, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, cretin, moron, imbecile, simpleton;

woodworkerjunkie wrote:No, actually I'm considered an extremest right wing conservative pea brained I-D-I-O-T by some on this forum!

Nah, you're not an idiot. I just see you as one of those who lives by the principle (or is practice?) of

PLATITUDES is my ATTITUDES!!

There are plenty of them on both ends of the spectrum!

Look, Ive made it crystal clear I have no problem with a disabled person being on disability. There is nothing wrong with that. I also have no problem with say, a single mom having to go on welfare for a few years so she can go back to school and get a marketable skill that will produce a living wage so she can support herself and her child/children. I also have no problem with a guy who gets fired or laid off from a job getting unemployment for a while, until he can find a new job.

What I am talking about, what irritates the hell out of me are these people who go on welfare and STAY ON WELFARE. They raise their children ON WELFARE and they make no effort at all to educate themselves, to go to school to get a marketable skill or break into a profession. That is an abomination. And there are way too many people in America (and overseas as well in socialist economys) who are living this welfare "lifestyle."

You can whine and feel sorry for yourself all you want. I dont care that people were not created equal. Its obvious that some people are genetically gifted more than others, all you have to do is look at some people and tell that. To forcibly bring those people down to an "equal" level where everybody is "the same" is hateful and communistic.

Merry Christmas,


Eric

Julie wrote:Eric (and friends) - Through no fault of their own, people are NOT created equal, let alone are they born into similar circumstances. And very much of the time they simply, really, do not have the resources or means to advance as you'd like them to. Whether it's a question of plain poverty, health - both physical and mental, lack of good educational venues, etc. etc. the only thing obvious - and it holds true for all of the animal world as well - is that the fittest survive, and the rest scramble to catch up. But if you believe that gives you the freedom to damn them/us to hell (or its earthly equivalent), or that it makes you superior - shall I call you an ubermensch? - you are 1000% wrong! And you apparently do believe in some god - what happened to mercy and kindness and loving your brother and helping him up? And don't talk about minimum wage - it may work for a teenager living at home, but does nothing at all for a family - just ask Wal-Mart employees about that. I'm sure Mr. Capitalism Buffett could spout some double-talk to excuse what he's doing.

Anything else I could say would not be printable here, so won't say any more.

idamtnboy wrote:

woodworkerjunkie wrote:No, actually I'm considered an extremest right wing conservative pea brained I-D-I-O-T by some on this forum!

Nah, you're not an idiot. I just see you as one of those who lives by the principle (or is practice?) of

PLATITUDES is my ATTITUDES!!

There are plenty of them on both ends of the spectrum!

Ok, More Platitude for ya then. Referencing a favorite stab at Fox (Faux as Nate would call them) news. Since people on this forum like to make statements about Fox news being "The Biased network"! As you all like to say, don't let facts get in your way of the truth!
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/201 ... 79852.html

Journalist consensus: Media lean left.....Top journalists from The New York Times, NBC News and CNN acknowledged Wednesday that, generally speaking, the national media have a liberal bias.

"A certain type of person becomes a reporter, and generally speaking — generally speaking, I'm not saying every reporter in the world — the kind of person who is a reporter in Washington, D.C., or New York City has never worked a minimum-wage job outside of high school, has never experienced poverty, is not an evangelical Christian, like much of the country is," Tapper said. "There are a lot of experiences that the kinds of people who are reporters, editors, producers in Washington and New York City have not had."

http://www.mrc.org/media-bias-101/journ ... s-part-one

http://archive.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics3.asp

If I don't have to work tomorrow, I'll have more Platitude (As you like to call it) for ya!

SuddenlyWornOut45 wrote:I dont care that people were not created equal. Its obvious that some people are genetically gifted more than others, all you have to do is look at some people and tell that. To forcibly bring those people down to an "equal" level where everybody is "the same" is hateful and communistic.

Merry Christmas,


Eric

You are absolutely right, sir. There are some people who are genetically gifted more than others... all I have to do is read your posts to know that!

Bring down people?? to an equal level?? hateful?? communistic????? Give me a break!

SuddenlyWornOut45 wrote:What I am talking about, what irritates the hell out of me are these people who go on welfare and STAY ON WELFARE. They raise their children ON WELFARE and they make no effort at all to educate themselves, to go to school to get a marketable skill or break into a profession. That is an abomination. And there are way too many people in America (and overseas as well in socialist economys) who are living this welfare "lifestyle."

It's OK to be irritated at them, although concerned would be a more positive response. The question that needs to be answered is why do they stay on welfare, and what needs to be done to get them off welfare? The simplistic answers I hear from the right are they are lazy and they need a kick in the butt. The answer, SWO, is not that simple. In order to move out of the welfare state of life one needs knowledge, opportunity, and motivation.

Knowledge does not just drop out of the sky. It has to be imparted. In the multiple generation welfare family the preceding generations most likely don't possess the knowledge that needs to be imparted to the next generation so they know how to navigate the world of work. So who is going to provide that knowledge to the children so they will know how and where to work? You tell me.

We have the old adage, "When opportunity knocks." What does that phrase tell you? It says opportunity comes to the person. A person can also seek opportunity. But opportunity is seldom, if ever really, created from within oneself. So who provides it? Many times it's corporations, or as many conservatives call them, the job creators. But what if the corporations don't come to an area that is populated by a welfare centric community? Then where does the welfare person go to find opportunity? Across the county, across the state, across the country? Maybe, but that person, be it child or adult, has to be taught where those opportunities are, and what they look like. Who's going to do that? And what about when opportunities just up and walk away, like the auto industry and Detroit? "Just go find a job," is a slap in the face for many of the folks who have been let go, or for young men and women just leaving high school or college and no jobs around them.

And then there's motivation. For many people, like you and me, motivation comes from within at an intensity sufficient to bring us up out of childhood poverty and succeed in the world of work. But it comes in all levels of intensity from the pure lazy to the attitude of "don't anyone stand in my way or I'll roll right over you," that characterizes the achievers like Donald Trump. Often motivation can be cultivated, but it takes a hell of a good mentor, or teacher, to cultivate it. And it can be a slow agonizing process to cultivate motivation to the point where a person becomes self sufficient. A figurative swift kick in the rear is almost never a successful motivating technique.

What do you want society to do to, or for, the 3rd generation welfare person? Spend societal money to bring them knowledge and opportunity and stimulate their motivation, or let them starve to death in their own cold dark shack? Teaching a man to fish isn't cheap, and it isn't easy. Anyone who thinks a man can learn to fish on his own and start feeding himself, all before he starves to death, just doesn't understand human nature.

All I'm saying is that creating the conditions that allow anyone who wants to work, or needs to work, is a hell of a lot more complicated than leave the free market alone and get government out of the picture. As far as providing health care to everyone the Republicans have had 50 years to come up with a solution that works, and they haven't done it.

idamtnboy wrote: It's OK to be irritated at them, although concerned would be a more positive response. The question that needs to be answered is why do they stay on welfare, and what needs to be done to get them off welfare? The simplistic answers I hear from the right are they are lazy and they need a kick in the butt. The answer, SWO, is not that simple. In order to move out of the welfare state of life one needs knowledge, opportunity, and motivation.

Very true. Right now, the system is setup to punish those who try to move up. For example, if you are on welfare, and you get a job, you will only get ahead if you manage to get a job that pays more than welfare. If you may $300 a week, welfare deducts that $300. So, you end up paying for transportation, work clothes, possibly higher food costs for meals at work, daycare for kids, etc; and you still get exactly the same total pay. Why bother? You might as well stay home, save money, and skip the day care.

We had a new employee awhile back who was doing well, but she was told to quit because she couldn't get enough hours. She was told not to accept a job that wasn't full time. Well, a lot of jobs aren't full time. We lost a possibly good employee, and she was basically told to quit trying as most newbies without a great resume don't get hired into great first jobs.

My sister has had some job troubles in the past few years. When she was unemployed, she received unemployment and food stamps. If she worked a part time job, her unemployment checks were reduced. So, she didn't want to apply for anything that wasn't higher than unemployment would pay. And the food stamps were approved for a 6 month period. One time, she was only unemployed for 2 months, but she received food stamps for 6 months. So, the current system doesn't encourage actively seeking a job, and the system also pays out a lot without confirming need. There is also no requirement to prove looking for a job.

A few years ago, my nephew lost his job, and he waited until the last month of unemployment to seriously look for a job, any job. Prior to that, he only looked for great jobs. Since he had worked at one job for a short time at great pay, he figured that was what he was worth. Of course, he lost that job by flipping a semi. He was lucky he didn't kill anybody or get seriously injured. Yes, he fell asleep. He doesn't have sleep apnea, but he was low on sleep and was trying to avoid being late as he had been late before. We learned later that this trucking company has a history of under training new truck drivers, and then firing them while they still owe thousands for their training program. Anyway, he passed up jobs paying $15 an hour as they were beneath him. He later accepted a job for $11 an hour because he was out of unemployment and needed a job.

Another big issue is the school system. I think it needs to be redone even more than the health care and insurance system. We have some lousy teachers being protected while some great teachers get laid off. Some schools are cheating, fixing student tests to make sure they score better, and our children are being cheated out of a good education. How can we expect them to succeed and get off the welfare they have grown up in, if their world is a low income neighborhood and a crappy school? Kids in poor homes should have just as much opportunity to attend a decent school as other kids. We should be rewarding good schools and forcing bad schools to step up. We should not just throw money at and expect it to improve, but actually advocate for the kids. Spend the money that needs to be spent, but make sure it is being used well. If a teacher is not doing well, they need to be retrained, moved, or fired.

As an example, when my nephew was in the 7th grade, he was moved to special ed. His parents were not capable of helping him with his homework as they didn't have good math skills, grammar, etc. They had already pretty much failed by the system when they were in school. They do have some responsibility in this as they refused to allow my nephew to have free after school tutoring since they didn't want to drive to town to pick him up. So, he fell behind and was put in special ed. Well, the special ed program, at least there, was useless. Basically babysitting. Halfway through the year, we got his parents to let him move in with us, and we home schooled him. My mom did English, grammar, writing, history, etc. She made it fun with both reading AND movies about history. She let him choose his own books and set a minimum reading time per day. I did his math. He loved spending time with me, so I could easily get him to do 2 hours of math at a time with no problem. When we went on a trip, we took him with us. My mom pulled out a book that I had loved in the 4th grade and asked me to read the first two chapters out loud to get him into the story. Later, I finished re-reading it quietly. He watched me reading. Later, he picked that as his book to read each day. He read for hours and asked us to be quiet. He finished the book. I found out that the author's daughter had written two sequels, so I ordered them. When he was asleep, I read the first one overnight (small book, and I am a fast reader). I didn't tell him. He read the first few chapters the next day and told me about it. He gave a very accurate detailed summary of what he read. His skills really improved during that time.

The next year, his parents would not let us home school him again. His special ed class had him repeating the same math I had already taught him. He complained and asked for the 8th grade math. The teacher got the book out, but couldn't teach it, so moved him back to repeating the 7th grade math. A teacher, with 8th grade students, teaching math, could not teach 8th grade math. I was 27, out of college (AA degree), no math classes in a few years, yet I could open up his text book and teach him just fine. I didn't need to study again or look it up.

My nephew was grumpy and knew he was being cheated. Later, he moved in with us full time and switched to the high school near us for the last two years. He was in special ed for a few classes and some regular classes. The teachers there were much better, but it was still mostly basic grammar, very basic math, and not very challenging. NO homework except for the rare project. My nephew believed that only honor students had homework. And he really didn't learn the skills of working on his own, looking up things, etc. When he had a project to do, he would work on it if somebody say with him. But if we left to use the bathroom or answer the phone, all thought seemed to stop. Also, the students were given strange instructions when given a project. If you want an A, you need to do this, a B, do this. etc. Well, my nephew figured he only needed a C. So, he never bothered to try for anything higher. People don't always think about this way, but these skills are important in the job market.

My nephew didn't understand the real world at all. His dream job was to work on the railroad. The minimum requirements to apply were age 18 and a high school diploma. He thought he was guaranteed a job. He met the minimum requirements. He thought I was jealous when I tried to warn him that it isn't that easy. He will need to compete against other applicants, many who were older, had good job histories, etc. His first application, he went, and there were lots of people applying. He didn't get it. He was stunned. He didn't think it was fair. He couldn't understand why the other applicants were more qualified.

His first jobs were not great jobs - pizza place, airport doing baggage, etc. He lost his first few jobs because he did the bare minimum. He would come home and complain, and while he thought he was justified by what he did and did not do, I could tell he was setting himself up to fail. He saw other people slacking and not getting trouble, so he slacked too, and got in trouble. Sure, it is unfair. But that is the real world. He didn't seem to grasp that those who work hard have a better chance of moving up and those who slack off tend to get in trouble and get fired. When we get new employees at my job, we like to see people who ask what to do next, rather than stop and wait when they finish a task. We want to see people with a good attitude who keeps trying to learn and do more. Those behaviors are taught in school with projects, homework, etc. They are lifetime skills.

My two nieces got it a lot worse than my nephew. They also went into the special ed program. They are legally not related to my family (nephew's mom got married and then had the two girls). So, while we call them family, we have no legal rights them. They live a 2 hour drive away, and their parents wouldn't let us home school them or take them for long weekends or the summer. We got my nephew by getting him during a lot of my brother's official time. They waited until the older girl was about to flunk her junior year to ask us for help. Two weeks before finals, we got ONE weekend with her. She barely cooperated, and we basically learned that her skills didn't go past grade school. She could barely read. And she couldn't even round 75 to the nearest hundred. Fractions were a mystery to her. But that was what her math class was teaching (as a junior in high school). She flunked. She graduated from an alternative school a couple years later. She is 24, and got her first job a couple months ago. Her sister is 18 and just had a baby. She has not graduated yet, and probably isn't doing much better in school.

My nephew knows he had a crappy education, but it was better than what is sisters got. He is angry at his parents for that, knowing they could have done a lot more t o make sure they got the help they needed much earlier.

Why is that we have kids passing junior high without being to add, subtract, multiply, and divide without a calculator? How are high school graduates supposed to get jobs if they can't read cursive writing, can't remember that 8 ounces is 0.5 in decimal form, and 1/3 of a pound is 0.33? Things that are so basic that most of us older adults learned them in grade school, yet many *adults* can't do these skills now.

How can we expect these young adults to get a job, let alone a good job, manage their money well, and truly succeed when we set them up for failure?

Zoocrew,

I don't feel like doing a fact check but if I remember correctly, doesn't the welfare system discourage people from entering training programs that could give them access to a well paying job that would enable them to move up? It seems to compel folks to accept any job even if it has a lousy future.

Having a good friend who retired prematurely from teaching, I have alot of thoughts on education. I also worked briefly in special ed. Haven't carefully read your post so I am not sure how much we agree or differ.

Personally, I think schools have become a game of teaching to the test and no longer have anything to do with learning. I realized that state tests were implemented in response too many kids going through school not having basic skills but in my opinion, this is an extreme overreaction. One reason my friend left teaching is she felt that all her teaching efforts were geared towards students passing the test and nothing more.

She also felt she was forced to teach student concepts that they were not ready for developmentally and found that very frustrating.

Additionally, she mentioned that there was no consistency with education philosophy and it had become a game of the "teaching flavor" of the year. How any student could success in this environment is beyond me.

Maybe if they would stay with one method that has been proven to work, the results might improve. As I previously mentioned, I am not a fan of the State education tests but they did help another teacher that I knew convince her principal that a reading program they were using needed to be changed. After implementing one that had a proven record of success during summer school, the kids' reading scores dramatically improved.

So perhaps before looking a teachers' performance, it is important to evaluate the conditions under which they are forced to work. But my friend and I do agree that teachers who are truly at fault for performing badly need to do. My friend constantly railed at how raises were based on tenure and not merit.

However, I think it is unfair to suggest that charter and private schools would be better when it seems that many public schools are being set up to fail and not being given the opportunity to succeed. Let's go back to my friend who got her principal to change the reading program.

What if that principal had refuse to change something that wasn't working or had not been allowed it? Is that really a failure of the teachers at the school if they don't have the right tools to work with? Most sane people would say no.

Additionally, many charter schools cherry pick students and many of them find a way not to take students with disabilities who may have lower performing scores even though that is not an indication of their intelligence. People seem to forget that.

I do agree with your concern about special ed students getting a good education. I used to be opposed to vouchers before I spent time on a special ed list and realized how hard it was for parents to get their kids a good education.

I still have some concerns that it really wouldn't go far enough since some of the best ones in my area cost thousands of dollars per years. I don't know, it would seem to be more cost effective to improve special ed services in public schools but easier said than done, I know.

Those are my thoughts for now.

49er

zoocrewphoto wrote:

idamtnboy wrote: It's OK to be irritated at them, although concerned would be a more positive response. The question that needs to be answered is why do they stay on welfare, and what needs to be done to get them off welfare? The simplistic answers I hear from the right are they are lazy and they need a kick in the butt. The answer, SWO, is not that simple. In order to move out of the welfare state of life one needs knowledge, opportunity, and motivation.

Very true. Right now, the system is setup to punish those who try to move up. For example, if you are on welfare, and you get a job, you will only get ahead if you manage to get a job that pays more than welfare. If you may $300 a week, welfare deducts that $300. So, you end up paying for transportation, work clothes, possibly higher food costs for meals at work, daycare for kids, etc; and you still get exactly the same total pay. Why bother? You might as well stay home, save money, and skip the day care.

We had a new employee awhile back who was doing well, but she was told to quit because she couldn't get enough hours. She was told not to accept a job that wasn't full time. Well, a lot of jobs aren't full time. We lost a possibly good employee, and she was basically told to quit trying as most newbies without a great resume don't get hired into great first jobs.

My sister has had some job troubles in the past few years. When she was unemployed, she received unemployment and food stamps. If she worked a part time job, her unemployment checks were reduced. So, she didn't want to apply for anything that wasn't higher than unemployment would pay. And the food stamps were approved for a 6 month period. One time, she was only unemployed for 2 months, but she received food stamps for 6 months. So, the current system doesn't encourage actively seeking a job, and the system also pays out a lot without confirming need. There is also no requirement to prove looking for a job.

A few years ago, my nephew lost his job, and he waited until the last month of unemployment to seriously look for a job, any job. Prior to that, he only looked for great jobs. Since he had worked at one job for a short time at great pay, he figured that was what he was worth. Of course, he lost that job by flipping a semi. He was lucky he didn't kill anybody or get seriously injured. Yes, he fell asleep. He doesn't have sleep apnea, but he was low on sleep and was trying to avoid being late as he had been late before. We learned later that this trucking company has a history of under training new truck drivers, and then firing them while they still owe thousands for their training program. Anyway, he passed up jobs paying $15 an hour as they were beneath him. He later accepted a job for $11 an hour because he was out of unemployment and needed a job.

Another big issue is the school system. I think it needs to be redone even more than the health care and insurance system. We have some lousy teachers being protected while some great teachers get laid off. Some schools are cheating, fixing student tests to make sure they score better, and our children are being cheated out of a good education. How can we expect them to succeed and get off the welfare they have grown up in, if their world is a low income neighborhood and a crappy school? Kids in poor homes should have just as much opportunity to attend a decent school as other kids. We should be rewarding good schools and forcing bad schools to step up. We should not just throw money at and expect it to improve, but actually advocate for the kids. Spend the money that needs to be spent, but make sure it is being used well. If a teacher is not doing well, they need to be retrained, moved, or fired.

As an example, when my nephew was in the 7th grade, he was moved to special ed. His parents were not capable of helping him with his homework as they didn't have good math skills, grammar, etc. They had already pretty much failed by the system when they were in school. They do have some responsibility in this as they refused to allow my nephew to have free after school tutoring since they didn't want to drive to town to pick him up. So, he fell behind and was put in special ed. Well, the special ed program, at least there, was useless. Basically babysitting. Halfway through the year, we got his parents to let him move in with us, and we home schooled him. My mom did English, grammar, writing, history, etc. She made it fun with both reading AND movies about history. She let him choose his own books and set a minimum reading time per day. I did his math. He loved spending time with me, so I could easily get him to do 2 hours of math at a time with no problem. When we went on a trip, we took him with us. My mom pulled out a book that I had loved in the 4th grade and asked me to read the first two chapters out loud to get him into the story. Later, I finished re-reading it quietly. He watched me reading. Later, he picked that as his book to read each day. He read for hours and asked us to be quiet. He finished the book. I found out that the author's daughter had written two sequels, so I ordered them. When he was asleep, I read the first one overnight (small book, and I am a fast reader). I didn't tell him. He read the first few chapters the next day and told me about it. He gave a very accurate detailed summary of what he read. His skills really improved during that time.

The next year, his parents would not let us home school him again. His special ed class had him repeating the same math I had already taught him. He complained and asked for the 8th grade math. The teacher got the book out, but couldn't teach it, so moved him back to repeating the 7th grade math. A teacher, with 8th grade students, teaching math, could not teach 8th grade math. I was 27, out of college (AA degree), no math classes in a few years, yet I could open up his text book and teach him just fine. I didn't need to study again or look it up.

My nephew was grumpy and knew he was being cheated. Later, he moved in with us full time and switched to the high school near us for the last two years. He was in special ed for a few classes and some regular classes. The teachers there were much better, but it was still mostly basic grammar, very basic math, and not very challenging. NO homework except for the rare project. My nephew believed that only honor students had homework. And he really didn't learn the skills of working on his own, looking up things, etc. When he had a project to do, he would work on it if somebody say with him. But if we left to use the bathroom or answer the phone, all thought seemed to stop. Also, the students were given strange instructions when given a project. If you want an A, you need to do this, a B, do this. etc. Well, my nephew figured he only needed a C. So, he never bothered to try for anything higher. People don't always think about this way, but these skills are important in the job market.

My nephew didn't understand the real world at all. His dream job was to work on the railroad. The minimum requirements to apply were age 18 and a high school diploma. He thought he was guaranteed a job. He met the minimum requirements. He thought I was jealous when I tried to warn him that it isn't that easy. He will need to compete against other applicants, many who were older, had good job histories, etc. His first application, he went, and there were lots of people applying. He didn't get it. He was stunned. He didn't think it was fair. He couldn't understand why the other applicants were more qualified.

His first jobs were not great jobs - pizza place, airport doing baggage, etc. He lost his first few jobs because he did the bare minimum. He would come home and complain, and while he thought he was justified by what he did and did not do, I could tell he was setting himself up to fail. He saw other people slacking and not getting trouble, so he slacked too, and got in trouble. Sure, it is unfair. But that is the real world. He didn't seem to grasp that those who work hard have a better chance of moving up and those who slack off tend to get in trouble and get fired. When we get new employees at my job, we like to see people who ask what to do next, rather than stop and wait when they finish a task. We want to see people with a good attitude who keeps trying to learn and do more. Those behaviors are taught in school with projects, homework, etc. They are lifetime skills.

My two nieces got it a lot worse than my nephew. They also went into the special ed program. They are legally not related to my family (nephew's mom got married and then had the two girls). So, while we call them family, we have no legal rights them. They live a 2 hour drive away, and their parents wouldn't let us home school them or take them for long weekends or the summer. We got my nephew by getting him during a lot of my brother's official time. They waited until the older girl was about to flunk her junior year to ask us for help. Two weeks before finals, we got ONE weekend with her. She barely cooperated, and we basically learned that her skills didn't go past grade school. She could barely read. And she couldn't even round 75 to the nearest hundred. Fractions were a mystery to her. But that was what her math class was teaching (as a junior in high school). She flunked. She graduated from an alternative school a couple years later. She is 24, and got her first job a couple months ago. Her sister is 18 and just had a baby. She has not graduated yet, and probably isn't doing much better in school.

My nephew knows he had a crappy education, but it was better than what is sisters got. He is angry at his parents for that, knowing they could have done a lot more t o make sure they got the help they needed much earlier.

Why is that we have kids passing junior high without being to add, subtract, multiply, and divide without a calculator? How are high school graduates supposed to get jobs if they can't read cursive writing, can't remember that 8 ounces is 0.5 in decimal form, and 1/3 of a pound is 0.33? Things that are so basic that most of us older adults learned them in grade school, yet many *adults* can't do these skills now.

How can we expect these young adults to get a job, let alone a good job, manage their money well, and truly succeed when we set them up for failure?

WWJ,

I am curious as to why you have to distinguish between your Democrat and Republican friends? I am assuming you meant this sort of as a joke but I still find it interesting that you did this.

I don't know, in my experience, it seems that people taking offense to the words, "Merry Christmas" wasn't limited to a certain group of people. Just my opinion.

49er

quote="woodworkerjunkie"]To My Democrat Friends:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or explicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2014, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.

To My Republican Friends:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/12/103977- ... publicans/[/quote]

LOL

Your entire post displays the typical entitlement mentality. If someone is one welfare and is able to get a job that pays ANYTHING (that is legal), and welfare deducts what you make from that job, then hell you should be jumping for joy. Hell, youre that much more off of welfare!!!!!!!

The "why bother stay at home and live off the government" BECAUSE you cannot find a job that pays more than welfare is the very exact attitude that keeps so many people on the welfare "lifestyle" for decades, generations even.

It is only when limits are placed on welfare or the amounts allotted in welfare are reduced to subsistence level living (prevention of starvation, prevention of freezing to death in the winter or prevention of heat stroke in the summer) that people on welfare will become self motivated to get the hell off of government help by either 1) getting a job, ANY JOB. Or by 2) going back to school full time to acquire a marketable skill that will provide a long term living wage kind of job or profession. I have no problem paying for such individual's vocational occupation, btw, with taxpayer money.

Man, if I was on welfare and was getting $300 a week from it and could find a job making the equivalent amount, I'd be jumping off the springboard to take that job.

The weak, the stupid, the sick and people who feel sorry for themselves get wiped out of the gene pool. Thats the way God made it and its never going to change, ever.

Eric

zoocrewphoto wrote:

idamtnboy wrote:

Very true. Right now, the system is setup to punish those who try to move up. For example, if you are on welfare, and you get a job, you will only get ahead if you manage to get a job that pays more than welfare. If you may $300 a week, welfare deducts that $300. So, you end up paying for transportation, work clothes, possibly higher food costs for meals at work, daycare for kids, etc; and you still get exactly the same total pay. Why bother? You might as well stay home, save money, and skip the day care.

We had a new employee awhile back who was doing well, but she was told to quit because she couldn't get enough hours. She was told not to accept a job that wasn't full time. Well, a lot of jobs aren't full time. We lost a possibly good employee, and she was basically told to quit trying as most newbies without a great resume don't get hired into great first jobs.

My sister has had some job troubles in the past few years. When she was unemployed, she received unemployment and food stamps. If she worked a part time job, her unemployment checks were reduced. So, she didn't want to apply for anything that wasn't higher than unemployment would pay. And the food stamps were approved for a 6 month period. One time, she was only unemployed for 2 months, but she received food stamps for 6 months. So, the current system doesn't encourage actively seeking a job, and the system also pays out a lot without confirming need. There is also no requirement to prove looking for a job.

A few years ago, my nephew lost his job, and he waited until the last month of unemployment to seriously look for a job, any job. Prior to that, he only looked for great jobs. Since he had worked at one job for a short time at great pay, he figured that was what he was worth. Of course, he lost that job by flipping a semi. He was lucky he didn't kill anybody or get seriously injured. Yes, he fell asleep. He doesn't have sleep apnea, but he was low on sleep and was trying to avoid being late as he had been late before. We learned later that this trucking company has a history of under training new truck drivers, and then firing them while they still owe thousands for their training program. Anyway, he passed up jobs paying $15 an hour as they were beneath him. He later accepted a job for $11 an hour because he was out of unemployment and needed a job.

Another big issue is the school system. I think it needs to be redone even more than the health care and insurance system. We have some lousy teachers being protected while some great teachers get laid off. Some schools are cheating, fixing student tests to make sure they score better, and our children are being cheated out of a good education. How can we expect them to succeed and get off the welfare they have grown up in, if their world is a low income neighborhood and a crappy school? Kids in poor homes should have just as much opportunity to attend a decent school as other kids. We should be rewarding good schools and forcing bad schools to step up. We should not just throw money at and expect it to improve, but actually advocate for the kids. Spend the money that needs to be spent, but make sure it is being used well. If a teacher is not doing well, they need to be retrained, moved, or fired.

As an example, when my nephew was in the 7th grade, he was moved to special ed. His parents were not capable of helping him with his homework as they didn't have good math skills, grammar, etc. They had already pretty much failed by the system when they were in school. They do have some responsibility in this as they refused to allow my nephew to have free after school tutoring since they didn't want to drive to town to pick him up. So, he fell behind and was put in special ed. Well, the special ed program, at least there, was useless. Basically babysitting. Halfway through the year, we got his parents to let him move in with us, and we home schooled him. My mom did English, grammar, writing, history, etc. She made it fun with both reading AND movies about history. She let him choose his own books and set a minimum reading time per day. I did his math. He loved spending time with me, so I could easily get him to do 2 hours of math at a time with no problem. When we went on a trip, we took him with us. My mom pulled out a book that I had loved in the 4th grade and asked me to read the first two chapters out loud to get him into the story. Later, I finished re-reading it quietly. He watched me reading. Later, he picked that as his book to read each day. He read for hours and asked us to be quiet. He finished the book. I found out that the author's daughter had written two sequels, so I ordered them. When he was asleep, I read the first one overnight (small book, and I am a fast reader). I didn't tell him. He read the first few chapters the next day and told me about it. He gave a very accurate detailed summary of what he read. His skills really improved during that time.

The next year, his parents would not let us home school him again. His special ed class had him repeating the same math I had already taught him. He complained and asked for the 8th grade math. The teacher got the book out, but couldn't teach it, so moved him back to repeating the 7th grade math. A teacher, with 8th grade students, teaching math, could not teach 8th grade math. I was 27, out of college (AA degree), no math classes in a few years, yet I could open up his text book and teach him just fine. I didn't need to study again or look it up.

My nephew was grumpy and knew he was being cheated. Later, he moved in with us full time and switched to the high school near us for the last two years. He was in special ed for a few classes and some regular classes. The teachers there were much better, but it was still mostly basic grammar, very basic math, and not very challenging. NO homework except for the rare project. My nephew believed that only honor students had homework. And he really didn't learn the skills of working on his own, looking up things, etc. When he had a project to do, he would work on it if somebody say with him. But if we left to use the bathroom or answer the phone, all thought seemed to stop. Also, the students were given strange instructions when given a project. If you want an A, you need to do this, a B, do this. etc. Well, my nephew figured he only needed a C. So, he never bothered to try for anything higher. People don't always think about this way, but these skills are important in the job market.

My nephew didn't understand the real world at all. His dream job was to work on the railroad. The minimum requirements to apply were age 18 and a high school diploma. He thought he was guaranteed a job. He met the minimum requirements. He thought I was jealous when I tried to warn him that it isn't that easy. He will need to compete against other applicants, many who were older, had good job histories, etc. His first application, he went, and there were lots of people applying. He didn't get it. He was stunned. He didn't think it was fair. He couldn't understand why the other applicants were more qualified.

His first jobs were not great jobs - pizza place, airport doing baggage, etc. He lost his first few jobs because he did the bare minimum. He would come home and complain, and while he thought he was justified by what he did and did not do, I could tell he was setting himself up to fail. He saw other people slacking and not getting trouble, so he slacked too, and got in trouble. Sure, it is unfair. But that is the real world. He didn't seem to grasp that those who work hard have a better chance of moving up and those who slack off tend to get in trouble and get fired. When we get new employees at my job, we like to see people who ask what to do next, rather than stop and wait when they finish a task. We want to see people with a good attitude who keeps trying to learn and do more. Those behaviors are taught in school with projects, homework, etc. They are lifetime skills.

My two nieces got it a lot worse than my nephew. They also went into the special ed program. They are legally not related to my family (nephew's mom got married and then had the two girls). So, while we call them family, we have no legal rights them. They live a 2 hour drive away, and their parents wouldn't let us home school them or take them for long weekends or the summer. We got my nephew by getting him during a lot of my brother's official time. They waited until the older girl was about to flunk her junior year to ask us for help. Two weeks before finals, we got ONE weekend with her. She barely cooperated, and we basically learned that her skills didn't go past grade school. She could barely read. And she couldn't even round 75 to the nearest hundred. Fractions were a mystery to her. But that was what her math class was teaching (as a junior in high school). She flunked. She graduated from an alternative school a couple years later. She is 24, and got her first job a couple months ago. Her sister is 18 and just had a baby. She has not graduated yet, and probably isn't doing much better in school.

My nephew knows he had a crappy education, but it was better than what is sisters got. He is angry at his parents for that, knowing they could have done a lot more t o make sure they got the help they needed much earlier.

Why is that we have kids passing junior high without being to add, subtract, multiply, and divide without a calculator? How are high school graduates supposed to get jobs if they can't read cursive writing, can't remember that 8 ounces is 0.5 in decimal form, and 1/3 of a pound is 0.33? Things that are so basic that most of us older adults learned them in grade school, yet many *adults* can't do these skills now.

How can we expect these young adults to get a job, let alone a good job, manage their money well, and truly succeed when we set them up for failure?

49er wrote:Zoocrew,

I don't feel like doing a fact check but if I remember correctly, doesn't the welfare system discourage people from entering training programs that could give them access to a well paying job that would enable them to move up? It seems to compel folks to accept any job even if it has a lousy future.

Major reforms to the US Welfare system were in enacted back in 1996, and within some rather broad parameters, the individual states are now largely responsible for setting the actual requirements for welfare in the state requirements for welfare recipients to look for work or be actively enrolled and attending training programs or education programs (i.e. working on a GED or working on a college degree). And in most states, welfare requires the recipient to participate in job searching, training programs, or education and these activities must be documentable. In a number of states, school age children in families on welfare are required to have good, consistent attendance at school---i.e. the benefits to the family can be cut if one of the kids is chronically absent (truant) from school.

States (and Washington, DC) are also responsible for establishing limits on the maximum time allowed on welfare. 40 states have time limits on how long an individual or a family can be on welfare; 17 of those states have a maximum limit that is less than 5 years. Of the other 10 states, 2 of them have NO maximum time limit, and the other 8, plus Washington DC that reduces benefits after a fixed time on welfare.

Yes, most of the states with maximum time limits do have a number of exemptions that allow a family to stay on welfare longer than the maximum allowed, and in some states, exemptions or extensions are pretty routine, but in other states, it is very difficult to get an exemption or an extension when the time limit is up.

For a detailed study of how the 1996 Welfare Reform Act and the imposition of time limits for welfare have affected the welfare system and the people who receive benefits, see http://www.mdrc.org/sites/default/files/full_607.pdf

"getting a job, ANY JOB" - tell that to someone with 3 kids who expected her other half to stick around for the hard times, only to find he didn't. ANY job will not feed those children and feeding them would have to be her first priority. You don't GET IT!