transport-sleep-apnea-scam

zoocrewphoto wrote:

Todzo wrote:

zoocrewphoto wrote: If 100 people are prescribed a medication that is known to work well, and only 20 people continue to take it, did the medication really fail?

It did not work for the people regardless of the reason.

CPAP does not work for most people.

We do not have a good solution for Obstructive Sleep Apnea at this time.

Wow, you are one stubborn pessimist.

Let me give you a specific example. I take medicine for high blood pressure. When I take it, My blood pressure is normal. But you know what, I hate taking pills. I struggle taking pills. Sometimes, I choke them back up. I also forget to take them. When they were first prescribed, I thought it wasn't a big deal. So, I didn't take them for a long time. Even now, it know it is important. I intend to take them, but I don't always remember. It is also easy to say I will take them later and then forget. Right now, I am on a trip with lots of long car rides. I won't take the water pill. It makes me pee every 45 minutes for 3-4 hours. I don't want to be on the highway 30 minutes from a rest stop when I need to go now.

By YOUR definition, the medication is a failure for me. Yet it works every time I use it. How is the medication to blame? On the basis that some people refuse to use it or forget to use it, you would tell other people that this medication is a failure?

BTW, we do have a great solution for sleep apnea - cpap machine and EDUCATION. If people learn how to use their machine and get some success, they will keep using it. It isn't the machine's fault that doctors and DMEs are lousy. Why don't you blame them instead of blaming the machine? You could really hurt some people (and their families) by misleading people about cpap treatment.

Judging from his previous posts, it seems that Todzo may be pulling our leg here, as he has up to now been pretty consistent in saying what you are saying, and giving encouraging advice to others here as to the effort that has to be put in to make CPAP (or other medical treatments) work. One example among many is what Todzo said in a long post of encouragement to another user on Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:34 am:

I believe your biggest obstacle to improvement of these symptoms is the stress in your life.

I think I should also mention that I do not believe in using CPAP or any kind of PAP “flying blind”. … So when you use CPAP you need to set up and use feedback, you need to have your eyes open to what is actually going on at night. You need to download good software for your machine and do the work to understand what the resultant charts mean. Or, if you have means, you need to contact a company which will daily download and analyze your data for you. I recommend the first as the daily feedback will likely result in corrective lifestyle changes along the way which can be very much life preserving.

Citation: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=81294&p=739702&hili ... ss#p739702

Regards, Nate

NateS wrote: Judging from his previous posts, it seems that Todzo may be pulling our leg here, as he has up to now been pretty consistent in saying what you are saying, and giving encouraging advice to others here as to the effort that has to be put in to make CPAP (or other medical treatments) work.
Regards, Nate

Hi Nate,

I am thinking about the average trucker right now. I am thinking about the many experiences I have had with doctors and those shared here. I am thinking about how important the whole issue is to the trucker, his family, and all of us.

In all likelihood he will not receive good education, have his data effectively monitored, or be well guided into CPAP use. I am thinking he will receive average care for our time right now.

And I know that right now most people will not use CPAP. So I know that most likely he will fail.

Job gone.

I am thinking about the reality he or she faces.

I do think I know a lot of things we could do to change that. But I know that we will not be moved to do those things if we think “everything is OK”. It is not OK.

So we start from the reality that most who are commended to CPAP will not be using it in a year.

So we start with the reality that we do not have a good answer to Sleep Apnea at this time.

So many truckers will be out of work.

And as they try CPAP many people will be in danger.

Things do need to change.

zoocrewphoto wrote:Wow, you are one stubborn pessimist.

Since creating facts out of mere opinion and syllogism, then arguing that those same facts must be faced is a clinical sign of delusional behaviour..... the correct terms is stubborn delusional pessimist I think.

Cheers,

Bill

Show me a recent study which shows that more than 50% of those medically commend to CPAP are using it for more than four hours a night at the one year or greater mark if you can.

Otherwise admit that most people cannot use CPAP.

Otherwise admit that we do not have a good solution to sleep apnea at this time.

heavens to mergatroid, change the record will ya!

After having read your comments Todzo, I have come to the conclusion that you are only arguing for the sake of arguing...... it is YOUR opinion and ONLY your opinion that counts isn't it. You pretend that you have so much knowledge..... if you are so much smarter than any of us, then why don't you be the big guy and fix the problem instead of whining and crying that we are all WRONG, the doctors are all WRONG, the manufacturers are all WRONG... and only you are RIGHT!! As Nate said, you are pulling everyone's leg by one day arguing the one side of an opinion and the other side the next. Instead of arguing with folks here, why don't you put your energies into fixing the problem, if you are soooooo knowledgeable on the subject of sleep apnea. Instead of trying to convince us by talking ....JUST DO IT!!!!!!
Cheers
Nan

Snagglepuss informs me that he wants no part of this thread.

Todzo wrote: CPAP does not work for most people.

We do not have a good answer for sleep apnea at this time.

It does matter what you tell people. If somevody coming into this group sees a post like this, they will assume that a cpap machine just won't do the job, no matter what it is set for, so why bother trying. That isn't true at all. The truth is that many people struggle to adjust to therapy, but it *IS* possible for most people to adjust if they have help. That is totally different.

As another example, the surgeries really do have a low percentage of success. But the way you talk about cpap, people in denial, trying to avoid a cpap machine, would be more likely to go for the surgery. So, you are discouraging the best option and steering people toward the worse options. You are not doing them any service.

zoocrewphoto wrote:

Todzo wrote: CPAP does not work for most people.

We do not have a good answer for sleep apnea at this time.

It does matter what you tell people. If somevody coming into this group sees a post like this, they will assume that a cpap machine just won't do the job, no matter what it is set for, so why bother trying. That isn't true at all. The truth is that many people struggle to adjust to therapy, but it *IS* possible for most people to adjust if they have help. That is totally different.

As another example, the surgeries really do have a low percentage of success. But the way you talk about cpap, people in denial, trying to avoid a cpap machine, would be more likely to go for the surgery. So, you are discouraging the best option and steering people toward the worse options. You are not doing them any service.

CPAP has done me a world of good, and because it has, I talk it up to friends who I think might need it. But some of those friends, despite being diagnosed with OSA and acquiring CPAP machines, are no longer using them. Whether we blame such people for not trying hard enough, or we blame someone on the treating side for not trying hard enough, or we say something neutral like "could not tolerate CPAP treatment," there is a big gap. CPAP has a better record than other treatments, but that doesn't compel us to deny its failures.

There are different perspectives here, and I can't say I think of either one as wrong. Certainly, people here know well that CPAP can perform miracles. We got the benefit of help from others to make it work, and we want to help others make it work. There is nothing wrong with the upbeat point of view when you are extending a hand to someone struggling. At the same time, we are interested in the problem of encouraging better treatment, so it isn't wrong to be realistic about the record. If you take a couple of steps back and look at the system of sleep apnea diagnosis and treatment using CPAP, you see many flaws. A deplorably large percentage of patients terminate treatment. It isn't something to be defeatist or cynical about, but it's a fact that has to be faced so it can drive the search for better solutions, which may not take the form so much of improving CPAP as improving how it is delivered.

At the same time, as they say, the perfect is the enemy of the good. Obviously we can't give up on helping people make CPAP work just because we know about failures. That would be like rejecting surgery that only saves lives half the time.

While I personally have a problem with the statement "CPAP doesn't work" (and I love the medicine examples to support the other line of thinking) I think I get where the thinking is coming from.

Years ago, a family member, along with all her co-workers, was required to attend a outing of sorts. It was designed to help them get along better by understanding each other.

One of the examples has stuck with me for years and sometimes helps me in situations like this one.

If you are supposed to be at work at 9:00 and it takes you 30 minutes to drive there, if you leave at 8:45, are you late?

The type of person I am says "Damned right, I'm LATE!!!" because there's no way I will be to work on time.

Some people, though, don't consider themselves actually LATE until 9:00. At 8:45, they're not late - YET.

It's just a different way of viewing it. Neither is right or wrong. Just different.

PST wrote:… the perfect is the enemy of the good. Obviously we can't give up on helping people make CPAP work just because we know about failures. That would be like rejecting surgery that only saves lives half the time.

+1

Nate

Todzo wrote:

NateS wrote: Judging from his previous posts, it seems that Todzo may be pulling our leg here, as he has up to now been pretty consistent in saying what you are saying, and giving encouraging advice to others here as to the effort that has to be put in to make CPAP (or other medical treatments) work.
Regards, Nate

Hi Nate,
I am thinking about the average trucker right now. I am thinking about the many experiences I have had with doctors and those shared here. I am thinking about how important the whole issue is to the trucker, his family, and all of us.
In all likelihood he will not receive good education, have his data effectively monitored, or be well guided into CPAP use. I am thinking he will receive average care for our time right now.
And I know that right now most people will not use CPAP. So I know that most likely he will fail.
Job gone.
I am thinking about the reality he or she faces.
I do think I know a lot of things we could do to change that. But I know that we will not be moved to do those things if we think “everything is OK”. It is not OK.
So we start from the reality that most who are commended to CPAP will not be using it in a year.
So we start with the reality that we do not have a good answer to Sleep Apnea at this time.
So many truckers will be out of work.
And as they try CPAP many people will be in danger.
Things do need to change.

Todzo, I understand the compassion you are expressing for truck drivers (although I have no compassion for the one who came here and told us he deliberately cheated attempting to show compliance with the machine because for him it was all about his imaginary "rights" under some imaginary Constitutional Amendment which he was unable or unwilling to name, not really because he was afraid of the machine. With that guy's attitude, most employers wouldn't trust him working as a fast food order cook).

And I agree that more needs to be done on research and support for those who are willing to make their best effort to adjust to therapy, whatever the therapy must be.

But I cannot agree with the concept that, until CPAP is perfect or replaced by something more perfect that it cannot be a condition of employment for truck drivers with sleep apnea when the condition it is designed to treat, sleep apnea, represents a life and death threat to innocent people on the road.

I think you are confusing compliance statistics with effectiveness statistics. They is no logical equivalency between the two.

And as for the argument that products should not be used or required until they are perfect, well you can see where that argument would lead. We would still be riding horses and buggies and there would be no trucking industry.

Regards, Nate

Nate, the "right" that I spoke of is the right to not have a FORCED test or TREATMENT (of another's choice) when there are NO regulations or laws on the books that allow such discrimination and difference in treatment of employees. However, according to FMCSA, the only time one would have to be treated would be if they are diagnosed with moderate to severe sleep apnea. I was diagnosed with slight to moderate, which does NOT require mandatory treatment. Even if it had, they still did not have me talk with a doctor at any time, nor was one there to prescribe the treatment to me. The only education one gets at that company is a 10 minute telephone consultation, period. They send us out the door with several boxes of components, and tell us we are to call the sales rep for how to assemble/use the machine. Again, NO doctor.

My apnea is mild; only 13 events per hour, but even that was killing me!
The difference cpap has made in my life is phenomenal.
If an employer had offered to pay my expenses in full, I would not have spit in their face.
But that's just me.

Trudger wrote:Nate, the "right" that I spoke of is the right to not have a FORCED test or TREATMENT (of another's choice) when there are NO regulations or laws on the books that allow such discrimination and difference in treatment of employees.

You do indeed have that right. And they had the right to can you if you refused. There is no regulation that prohibited them from having higher standards than FMCSA minimums.

Don't worry, there are plenty of trucking companies who don't mind having their drivers falsify data.