transport-sleep-apnea-scam

[Trudger]

There doesn't seem to be much intelligence.

[pootsie]

There doesn't seem to be much intelligence.

I am not sure what you mean there.

FMCSA has no regulations specifically targeted to apnea one way or ther other. Nothing there currently requires or prohibits companies from having drivers take sleep tests or use CPAP.

[BlackSpinner]

There doesn't seem to be much intelligence.

We already noted that on your part.

[Todzo]

Todzo, I understand the compassion you are expressing for truck drivers…

We hear it often that here that when people try the machine they are much more tired than they were without the machine. Indeed if the machine provokes unstable breathing it is likely that the arousals will indeed do that.
But for the trucker, who is already dog tired and under the gun, the load will need to be moved tomorrow.
You may think you understand my passion – what I would like to see from you is some actual compassion for the trucker under the gun required to make work what for most does not work.

And I agree that more needs to be done on research and support for those who are willing to make their best effort to adjust to therapy, whatever the therapy must be.

Why on earth would someone not try their hardest when their job is on the line? That is crazy!!!
What kind of presumptuous, oppressive, and slanderous patient blaming presumption do you buy into?

But I cannot agree with the concept that, until CPAP is perfect or replaced by something more perfect that it cannot be a condition of employment for truck drivers with sleep apnea when the condition it is designed to treat, sleep apnea, represents a life and death threat to innocent people on the road.

Where did you come up with this concept? If you attach it to me, that would be libel.

I think you are confusing compliance statistics with effectiveness statistics. They is no logical equivalency between the two.

Human beings find things that work and do that. For more than half CPAP does not work. It is nice that it works for you and me. For the half or more that it does not work for, considering your oppressive and slanderous attitudes, it is a very discouraging and heart sickening path to loss.

And as for the argument that products should not be used or required until they are perfect, well you can see where that argument would lead. We would still be riding horses and buggies and there would be no trucking industry.

Regards, Nate

Another “argument” I never made. I do not like libel.
The sick truckers that cannot be treated need to be off the highway.
At least half will fail CPAP. Other treatments are less effective.

So today I will start a letter to my congress people and ask that they look into these matters, help research into CPAP use and why it does not work for most, and how much Doctors blame their patients for their own incompetency.

[Todzo]

I have no compassion for the one who came here and told us he deliberately cheated attempting to show compliance with the machine because for him it was all about his imaginary "rights" under some imaginary Constitutional Amendment which he was unable or unwilling to name, not really because he was afraid of the machine. With that guy's attitude, most employers wouldn't trust him working as a fast food order cook).

The one who posted as Trudger did not believe that he cheated anyone.

I know that I do not know even if Trudger is the one who posted in the other forum, much less to have enough information to make a judgment about why he did what he did.

In my own walk with CPAP I have come to know that stress greatly affects the breathing stability I have while using CPAP. Reading the posts of many here I know I am not alone. As well, I know that the most severe form of unstable breathing, the hypocapnic central apnea, is procedurally provoked in research on human beings by raising the pressure every five minutes until they occur.

I also know that those new to CPAP are more likely to deal with issues of breathing stability. Indeed I woke up to see the fairly common “I feel worse using CPAP” thread in process this day.

So then as I think about this person who was apparently miss-diagnosed as having OSA now taking his brand new CPAP ON THE ROAD to use it for the FIRST TIME – well now – I think some so called “medical professionals” are on the hook for putting all of us in danger.

What! Do they not understand that the respiratory effort related arousals from the CPAP provoked unstable breathing saps the driver of essential rest!! What on earth are they thinking!!!!

The driver tried the thing in the high stress environment and found that it did not work for him. I think I would expect that to be the case for most.

The driver apparently chose a path that apparently reduced the risk to us and him. If what I am proposing is true I think he made the right choice.

Any lawyers out there – likely food on the table for you here. Doctors put us all in danger to place those with untested CPAP treatment on the road, apparently. Please help keep us safe.

Have a good week Nate,

Todzo

[allen476]

I think until a standard is made, most trucking companies are going to come up with CYA programs to address sleep apnea. There are some concerns from the standpoint of

1) Determination or how to determine who to screen. The method of measuring one's neck is about as stupid as you can get. So they now miss a good percentage of the normal people that have sleep apnea.

Honestly they should screen EVERYONE that wants to get a commercial drivers license. Start with a 7 channel home test. If that shows positive, then off to a sleep lab to make a deeper diagnosis. If I understand Trudger correctly, they made the diagnosis, prescribed treatment, and had no doctor intervention based off from a home test. We all would be upset if that happened to us.

2) Support and appeals process.

I actually sympathize with Trudger on this one. You are given a machine and mask and are told to "use it or lose your job". Heck how many can remember their first few days? Where did you go for help? Never mind his argument for why he didn't (which is about as silly as I have read here), but look at the fact that he is given all of this equipment and all he has that he is aware of is calling someone that is about as knowledgeable on CPAP as many of the RT's that we all have heard horror stories about. (I hope this sounding familiar to some of you)

How many here would put up with a job where your boss says "take this pill or lose your job"? You aren't allowed to question what the pill is, nor are you allowed to see about an alternative to the pill. How many would quit their jobs on the spot?

What is needed is a support system or at least direction to a support system. And when support doesn't work, then an appeals process where it can be determined if further action should be taken before termination.

We all could question the type of equipment they are given as well. I would hazard to say that they are given the bare bones brick and have a selection of 2 masks. So even if there is a problem, no one can see what it is.

3) Doctor intervention and transparency.

If Marten Transportation really wanted to make a difference in screening for sleep apnea, they insist on a board certified sleep doctor at least review the sleep study and take 2 minutes to sit with the patient and review it with them. I can see them getting sued because of the lack of a doctor in the process. A good attorney would show this whole process as a sham at best.

And if Marten was really acting in the best interest of the drivers, they would be transparent in the process. They would have them select from at least 4 independent sleep labs and have a network of DME's to work with (Even I shutter to say Apria or Lincare). This go to this ONE sleep lab (I would really say "SLEEP MILL") and then you are all set is load of.....



Now don't get me wrong, I am all for getting the truckers off the road that shouldn't be driving until they are getting proper treatment for their SA.

However the way the company is doing it is wrong.

Trudger though (maybe right in his mind) was wrong in willfully disobeying the company policy and such should have lost his job.

As the saying goes " Don't hate the player, hate the game"

[archangle]

It's perfectly appropriate for a trucking firm to require additional testing and treatment for a condition that threatens your health, your safety, the safety of everyone else on the road, and risks liability, damage, and costs to the company.

You wouldn't be screaming about your rights if the company required you to take additional safety training, take extra safety precautions, above what the law requires, would you?

How about if they required you to wait 8 hours after drinking alcohol, instead of the 4 hours the feds require?

Even if federal law doesn't require the exact same level of safety precautions. One of the most disgusting things in this country is companies using federal regulations to excuse unsafe practices. The federal government publishes regulations stating "doing XYZ" is illegal. Companies use that regulation to say that they can do anything up to XYZ, and they don't need to do any more.

For instance, the feds have specified that certain work hours patterns are so abusive and dangerous that they are illegal. Trucking companies and railroads use this as an excuse that anything just short of those hours are OK because there's federal regulations. As a result, truckers and engineers are often walking zombies because they can't get a good sleep pattern. Yes, you may not drive more than x hours, and get y hours off before returning, but you may be called at any time, regardless of when you've slept. You can't plan when to sleep so you'll be rested. Also, driving 12 hours or whatever it is every single time, not just under occasional "rush" periods leads to zombiedom.

That does not excuse shoddy or improper sleep apnea testing, if in fact that took place in your case.



There is also a quite valid point here about how bad the sleep apnea system is run.

Sleep apena is real. It's dangerous to truck drivers and to everyone on the road.

CPAP is the only "real" treatment.

I don't think it's common to fake positive tests, but mistakes do happen. They may push the "gray" area a bit, but I don't think there's outright fake results. If the test shows apnea, you may be in the gray area, but you're not well.

There may be some outright fraud, but I don't think the rewards are worth the risk. Also, apnea is so common, you don't need to fake it.

However there is a lot wrong with the process.

Once you do have apnea, the medical mafia has truly corrupted the system. You get overcharged. You get screwed with poor equipment. You get really poor treatment. You get screwed by squirrelly, incompetent, dishonest DMEs. Many doctors are incompetent and ignorant, but never uncertain. Insurance screws you, and screws up the whole process.

You really have to manage your own treatment if you want to be sure it's done right.

Sleep apena among truckers is a REAL problem. You DO need to force truckers to do CPAP, just as much as you need to force them to not drive under the influence. It's a shame the treatment system is such an abysmal failure.

[Trudger]

Thanks to those who at least understand the frustration involved in my situation. With that said, I don't believe that a couple nights of getting used to the machine, on the road in a truck bunk in the middle of nowhere, is proper adjustment. I agreed to go to Georgia, to get hands on training and set up from a medical professional, and one that could address my concerns. They gave me a medical assistant, who couldn't practice medicine without a license as a M.D., and therefore couldn't answer my questions about concerns for side effects or health risks. Had I been given more time, a doctor to sit down with and such, then I'm sure I would have adjusted to the program over a brief time. To just flat out terminate me for non-compliance, with my concerns I raised with them, was wrong in my opinion. I'm just say'n.

[NateS]

Thanks to those who at least understand the frustration involved in my situation. With that said, I don't believe that a couple nights of getting used to the machine, on the road in a truck bunk in the middle of nowhere, is proper adjustment. I agreed to go to Georgia, to get hands on training and set up from a medical professional, and one that could address my concerns. They gave me a medical assistant, who couldn't practice medicine without a license as a M.D., and therefore couldn't answer my questions about concerns for side effects or health risks. Had I been given more time, a doctor to sit down with and such, then I'm sure I would have adjusted to the program over a brief time. To just flat out terminate me for non-compliance, with my concerns I raised with them, was wrong in my opinion. I'm just say'n.

I'm sorry, Trudger but everytime you rewrite your story you polish it to make your actions sounds more reasonable. Unfortunately, you are stuck with the admissions about cheating on compliance and stubborn unwillingness to even try to use the machine, as you yourself first published them as follows:

Marten Transport Sleep Apnea scam
I have worked for Marten for a little over 2 months, and thought things were going great. However, about a month after I had been enjoying life at Marten, they came at me with a "forced" sleep apnea study. Forced means that you take it or you self terminate. Now, I'm one that believes that just because we walk through the door of a company to work for them, doen't mean that we check our rights at the door when we do. I don't appreciate being told I will "comply" with something I have no interest in doing, as there are no regulations about it, nor do I think there will be with FMCSA.

Well, I caved and took the test, and low and behold, the sales rep for the sleep apnea treatment machines says I have slight to moderate sleep apnea and will HAVE to go on the treatment machine, or self terminate. BS.

I signed the agreement to do the sleep apnea treatment (under duress), and found that the Mayo Clinic had come out with several concerns over the machines. I NEVER was able to talk to a doctor about it, and was told that a medical assistant was the only help they would give me when I said I wouldn't use the machine until I had a medical professional show me how to use it. They told me I had to go to Georgia for the training (I'm a west coast driver only.) I agreed, to play their game. I went, received training and was gradually using the machine the last few days a little more at a time. They also "monitor" you for compliance with an AT & T wireless transmitter (kind of like a home monitor ankle bracelet on house arrest.) You are required to keep it plugged in 24/7 and MUST be in compliance for 4 hours each night. Ok, I used the machine while I was awake ( I wouldn't do it sleeping!)

Well, today the routed me to Indiana and terminated me for failure to comply with their policy. BS. That's ok...the truth will come out about this issue and the danger to the motoring public with sleep deprived drivers on the FORCED program. You wear it, take it off after 4 hours and get some sleep for the remainder of your 10 hr break. So....you drive tired. Many drivers are having this issue, but won't speak out for fear of being terminated. I've spoken with the media about this issue and they are going to do a story on Marten and their forced sleep apnea program that puts the public at risk.

a week ago on http://www.thetruckersreport.com/trucki ... -scam.html

I believe I am quite a bit older than you and as a result I have had many medical experiences over my adult years, and I cannot think of a single incidence in which any doctor has ever sat down with me and "trained me" in the use of any medical device or medication or therapy. In every case, I was turned over to a trained medical assistant for instructions on usage, etc. I would bet that that has been the experience of 99% of the forum members here on line.

How can you now say with a straight face that: "Had I been given more time, a doctor to sit down with and such, then I'm sure I would have adjusted to the program over a brief time." when you have repeatedly admitted, both on the other website and in your earlier remarks here, that you absolutely REFUSED to use the machine! Anyone who reads your admissions above and on the other website can see in print your previous admissions and your total opposition to what you insisted was a violation of your inviolable "right" to avoid treatment. You are not merely stretching the truth, you are trying to re-invent your story based on what you have read here from one other forum member who has expressed sympathy for the burden placed on truck drivers by the program. You are futilely attempting to re-write your story to match that member's gloss over, whereas even one of your fellow truck drivers on the other website told you straight out: "Sleep apnea itself is not a scam. I was without my machine fo 2 days once. Major difference. That being said it does seem like a form of discrimination is in place. However I don't feel bad for the OP...he went along with the rules, he tried to circumvent the rules and got busted and terminated."

You were also presented here with the entire text of the Mayo Clinic article which we believe you cited as grounds for your purported "fears" about CPAP therapy and which document in fact strove to dispel all those fears and concerns. You were asked whether that was the Mayo Clinic document which purportedly caused you all these "concerns" that you wanted to discuss with a doctor, and you never replied to that question, nor did you present any other document from the Mayo Clinic which supposedly formed the basis for your concerns. Furthermore, there was nothing to stop you from going to a doctor on your own dime (since the company was paying for the original study, your machine, your supplies etc.), discussing these alleged concerns and fears and, if your doctor agreed with you, getting a letter from your doctor to the company in order to try to save your job and your means of earning a living for your family. No, instead you wanted to create a showdown with the company over this issue, and weigh your unconditional refusal of treatment against their condition of continued employment. Only after you were fired did you go to a doctor you found who allegedly provided you with the diagnosis you wanted. (I say "allegedly" because, when you were invited - not demanded - to produce a copy of his study and report here in support of your position, you called me a Communist for asking, and of course you refused "because this is America" and people should believe what you say without any proof to support it, even though you already admitted deliberately attempting to deceive the trucking company about your compliance, and implied that you felt like you were being treated like a criminal because the machine revealed your deliberate deception.

In these earlier posts, you made it clear that this was all a matter of principle for you, and you were taking a stand of refusal. When someone chooses to take a stand on principle, they must be prepared to live with the consequences.

Respectfully, Nate

[mollete]

I'd still like to know how he gets that massive amount of REM in a sleep study:

To let you know, even though I'm not obligated to, my sleep study showed only 7 times of no breathing, with 43% of time spent in REM sleep. I dreamed too.

The whole of point OSA treatment (at least as far as the trucking industry is concerned) is to reduce excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS)(I mean, maybe they care if you stroke while driving, or perhaps they figure you'll pull over in those few critical seconds that you may still have some body control).

However, a 43% REM sleep time indicates a staggering sleep debt. There's something real fishy here...

There's a real short list of things that would do that, however, an easy (and common) way would be to take away the person's Budweiser on the night of the sleep study. This results in a Rebound REM as the subject plays "catch-up" with their REM deficit:



http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/ ... 10-125.htm

[49er]

Trudger,

As one who was initially very sympathetic to your story, I have to agree with Nate about you constantly changing it. I realize that no one is 100% consistent in what they tell but saying that you would have now been willing to use the pap machine when you initially balked is a big time red flag. That tells me that you definitely know that your initial diagnosis was correct and because you did some doctor shopping to get the diagnosis you wanted, you are now driving as an unsafe driver.

49er

Thanks to those who at least understand the frustration involved in my situation. With that said, I don't believe that a couple nights of getting used to the machine, on the road in a truck bunk in the middle of nowhere, is proper adjustment. I agreed to go to Georgia, to get hands on training and set up from a medical professional, and one that could address my concerns. They gave me a medical assistant, who couldn't practice medicine without a license as a M.D., and therefore couldn't answer my questions about concerns for side effects or health risks. Had I been given more time, a doctor to sit down with and such, then I'm sure I would have adjusted to the program over a brief time. To just flat out terminate me for non-compliance, with my concerns I raised with them, was wrong in my opinion. I'm just say'n.

I'm sorry, Trudger but everytime you rewrite your story you polish it to make your actions sounds more reasonable. Unfortunately, you are stuck with the admissions about cheating on compliance and stubborn unwillingness to even try to use the machine, as you yourself first published them as follows:

Marten Transport Sleep Apnea scam
I have worked for Marten for a little over 2 months, and thought things were going great. However, about a month after I had been enjoying life at Marten, they came at me with a "forced" sleep apnea study. Forced means that you take it or you self terminate. Now, I'm one that believes that just because we walk through the door of a company to work for them, doen't mean that we check our rights at the door when we do. I don't appreciate being told I will "comply" with something I have no interest in doing, as there are no regulations about it, nor do I think there will be with FMCSA.

Well, I caved and took the test, and low and behold, the sales rep for the sleep apnea treatment machines says I have slight to moderate sleep apnea and will HAVE to go on the treatment machine, or self terminate. BS.

I signed the agreement to do the sleep apnea treatment (under duress), and found that the Mayo Clinic had come out with several concerns over the machines. I NEVER was able to talk to a doctor about it, and was told that a medical assistant was the only help they would give me when I said I wouldn't use the machine until I had a medical professional show me how to use it. They told me I had to go to Georgia for the training (I'm a west coast driver only.) I agreed, to play their game. I went, received training and was gradually using the machine the last few days a little more at a time. They also "monitor" you for compliance with an AT & T wireless transmitter (kind of like a home monitor ankle bracelet on house arrest.) You are required to keep it plugged in 24/7 and MUST be in compliance for 4 hours each night. Ok, I used the machine while I was awake ( I wouldn't do it sleeping!)

Well, today the routed me to Indiana and terminated me for failure to comply with their policy. BS. That's ok...the truth will come out about this issue and the danger to the motoring public with sleep deprived drivers on the FORCED program. You wear it, take it off after 4 hours and get some sleep for the remainder of your 10 hr break. So....you drive tired. Many drivers are having this issue, but won't speak out for fear of being terminated. I've spoken with the media about this issue and they are going to do a story on Marten and their forced sleep apnea program that puts the public at risk.

a week ago on http://www.thetruckersreport.com/trucki ... -scam.html

I believe I am quite a bit older than you and as a result I have had many medical experiences over my adult years, and I cannot think of a single incidence in which any doctor has ever sat down with me and "trained me" in the use of any medical device or medication or therapy. In every case, I was turned over to a trained medical assistant for instructions on usage, etc. I would bet that that has been the experience of 99% of the forum members here on line.

How can you now say with a straight face that: "Had I been given more time, a doctor to sit down with and such, then I'm sure I would have adjusted to the program over a brief time." when you have repeatedly admitted, both on the other website and in your earlier remarks here, that you absolutely REFUSED to use the machine! Anyone who reads your admissions above and on the other website can see in print your previous admissions and your total opposition to what you insisted was a violation of your inviolable "right" to avoid treatment. You are not merely stretching the truth, you are trying to re-invent your story based on what you have read here from one other forum member who has expressed sympathy for the burden placed on truck drivers by the program. You are futilely attempting to re-write your story to match that member's gloss over, whereas even one of your fellow truck drivers on the other website told you straight out: "Sleep apnea itself is not a scam. I was without my machine fo 2 days once. Major difference. That being said it does seem like a form of discrimination is in place. However I don't feel bad for the OP...he went along with the rules, he tried to circumvent the rules and got busted and terminated."

You were also presented here with the entire text of the Mayo Clinic article which we believe you cited as grounds for your purported "fears" about CPAP therapy and which document in fact strove to dispel all those fears and concerns. You were asked whether that was the Mayo Clinic document which purportedly caused you all these "concerns" that you wanted to discuss with a doctor, and you never replied to that question, nor did you present any other document from the Mayo Clinic which supposedly formed the basis for your concerns. Furthermore, there was nothing to stop you from going to a doctor on your own dime (since the company was paying for the original study, your machine, your supplies etc.), discussing these alleged concerns and fears and, if your doctor agreed with you, getting a letter from your doctor to the company in order to try to save your job and your means of earning a living for your family. No, instead you wanted to create a showdown with the company over this issue, and weigh your unconditional refusal of treatment against their condition of continued employment. Only after you were fired did you go to a doctor you found who allegedly provided you with the diagnosis you wanted. (I say "allegedly" because, when you were invited - not demanded - to produce a copy of his study and report here in support of your position, you called me a Communist for asking, and of course you refused "because this is America" and people should believe what you say without any proof to support it, even though you already admitted deliberately attempting to deceive the trucking company about your compliance, and implied that you felt like you were being treated like a criminal because the machine revealed your deliberate deception.

In these earlier posts, you made it clear that this was all a matter of principle for you, and you were taking a stand of refusal. When someone chooses to take a stand on principle, they must be prepared to live with the consequences.

Respectfully, Nate

[pootsie]

Funny thing about trying to fool people who know more than you ...

[Todzo]

When a murder happens everybody pulls out all the stops. Much time and effort documents and analyzes every detail that they can. The accused is placed before a jury of his peers who view and listen to all those details and what they may mean. In spite of all this effort men and women are wrongly convicted.

From where I sit I know that I do not have enough information to determine why a given person chose to use xPAP less than four hours a night.

Was it because they did not like the color? Perhaps they felt it made them look less sexy?

Was it because the pressure caused so many arousals that they found that they did better if they did not use the machine?!?!?

We only know that xPAP did not work for them.

[Todzo]

CPAP does not work for most people.

We do not have a good answer for sleep apnea at this time.

It does matter what you tell people. If somevody coming into this group sees a post like this, they will assume that a cpap machine just won't do the job, no matter what it is set for, so why bother trying. That isn't true at all. The truth is that many people struggle to adjust to therapy, but it *IS* possible for most people to adjust if they have help. That is totally different.

As another example, the surgeries really do have a low percentage of success. But the way you talk about cpap, people in denial, trying to avoid a cpap machine, would be more likely to go for the surgery. So, you are discouraging the best option and steering people toward the worse options. You are not doing them any service.

People need real information to make good decisions.

You apparently are unwilling to look at the actual information, otherwise you would not treat me as if I were saying something untrue. I would strongly suggest that you get into the real studies yourself, lest you libel me again!!

Any doctor who does not tell the person the real success rates of a therapy is committing malpractice.

[mollete]

People need real information to make good decisions.

OK, I got this one!

From the Journal of Somnological Therapies, Vol. 34, Issue 7, pp.731-745:

That Todzo is an asshole!!