Someone please help this Newbie!

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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AJimen05
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by AJimen05 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:39 am

DreamDiver wrote:
AJimen05 wrote:DreamOn, here is the statistics page for the same day...showing no Central: (BTW, I have a comparison study and it shows both nights...The PSG night and the CPAP night. There is nothing here that talks about centrals. On my report it shows 691 apneas and 40 Hypoapneas before treatment and 3 apneas and 25 hypoapneas after treatment at 11cm/H20.

Image
It looks like you didn't have large leaks worth mentioning for that night either. (Shown in the red circle.) That's excellent for that night. Congratulations!
However, previous nights in your first summary image show considerable large leaks. You can look at a summary of statistics for a specified of days determined by the date picker circled in green, or you could look through detailed graphs as I suggested earlier. It's great that you're getting results by changing your pressure, but I am a firm believer that addressing large leaks is a very important part of making sure therapy is working properly. Could we please see some leak line detailed graphs for the entire duration of the last three nights? It might prove useful...
Hey DreamDiver,

Recently no leaks since I changed the mask on monday...I went from the Mirage Liberty which leaked like crazy around the nasal pillows area and started using the newer Quattro FX by Resmed which sits real comfortable on my face...

I'll try to remember to post those graphs on here when I get home this evening. Thanks for your help!

_________________
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Additional Comments: Sleep Study Titrated to 11 cm H2O

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DreamDiver
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by DreamDiver » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:39 am

AJimen05 wrote:Hey DreamDiver,

Recently no leaks since I changed the mask on monday...I went from the Mirage Liberty which leaked like crazy around the nasal pillows area and started using the newer Quattro FX by Resmed which sits real comfortable on my face...

I'll try to remember to post those graphs on here when I get home this evening. Thanks for your help!
Nah, don't waste the time if your mask change has made that much difference. I would just keep watch on the leak line to make sure it stays satisfactory. If my leak problem were solved as yours is, and I were still seeing data with that many obstructives, that's when I would up my own pressure again. (I'm not a doc, so I can't tell you what's best for you.) I see you're already at 12.0cm H20. If cranking it from 11 to 12 produced a drop from 80 to 20 AHI, I imagine going up another level might be even better. You'll notice that if your pressure is set too high that your AHI will start climbing again. The idea is to find the sweet spot where pressure gives the best AHI.

One thing to note -- unless you have a huge number of Obstructive apneas and see a drastic change from one night to the next (80 down to 20), it has been suggested on the forum to leave the pressure setting as it is for at least a week or so to get an average AHI at that pressure. If I were still seeing an AHI of just under 20 at an AHI of 13, I would wait a while before changing the pressure. Why? Your body is still getting used to just using a mask at all. I noticed with my pressure constant at 9.0 when I first started my CPAP journey, my AHI steadily reduced over a month from 30 in the first couple nights to 6 per hour at the end of the month. Then down to 3 two months later. That was without any change in pressure. Since I knew I wanted to get it lower, that's when I started fiddling with pressure. Your situation merit different tactics though - and I applaud what you've done so far. Once you've found you're in the 'sweet-spot' neighborhood, it's time to slow down how fast you change your pressure.

If you're able to get an S9 Autoset, you could take a different tac, but the one your taking right now with the machine you have is very much what I would have done in your situation. Here's hoping for an excellent nights sleep tonight for you.

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DoriC
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by DoriC » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:54 am

Alex, I'm sure you're aware by now, but just wanted to point out that you're a lucky man to have these experts taking care of you. I'm still always amazed when I see them "in action" on a difficult case. I can't wait to see your AHI in a week or two!!

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AJimen05
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by AJimen05 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:10 am

DreamDiver wrote:
AJimen05 wrote:Hey DreamDiver,

Recently no leaks since I changed the mask on monday...I went from the Mirage Liberty which leaked like crazy around the nasal pillows area and started using the newer Quattro FX by Resmed which sits real comfortable on my face...

I'll try to remember to post those graphs on here when I get home this evening. Thanks for your help!
Nah, don't waste the time if your mask change has made that much difference. I would just keep watch on the leak line to make sure it stays satisfactory. If my leak problem were solved as yours is, and I were still seeing data with that many obstructives, that's when I would up my own pressure again. (I'm not a doc, so I can't tell you what's best for you.) I see you're already at 12.0cm H20. If cranking it from 11 to 12 produced a drop from 80 to 20 AHI, I imagine going up another level might be even better. You'll notice that if your pressure is set too high that your AHI will start climbing again. The idea is to find the sweet spot where pressure gives the best AHI.

One thing to note -- unless you have a huge number of Obstructive apneas and see a drastic change from one night to the next (80 down to 20), it has been suggested on the forum to leave the pressure setting as it is for at least a week or so to get an average AHI at that pressure. If I were still seeing an AHI of just under 20 at an AHI of 13, I would wait a while before changing the pressure. Why? Your body is still getting used to just using a mask at all. I noticed with my pressure constant at 9.0 when I first started my CPAP journey, my AHI steadily reduced over a month from 30 in the first couple nights to 6 per hour at the end of the month. Then down to 3 two months later. That was without any change in pressure. Since I knew I wanted to get it lower, that's when I started fiddling with pressure. Your situation merit different tactics though - and I applaud what you've done so far. Once you've found you're in the 'sweet-spot' neighborhood, it's time to slow down how fast you change your pressure.

If you're able to get an S9 Autoset, you could take a different tac, but the one your taking right now with the machine you have is very much what I would have done in your situation. Here's hoping for an excellent nights sleep tonight for you.
I've been pressing them about the Autoset and it seems they are not too keen on the idea...nor is my DME. I will keep an eye on the leak line...How do you know when it is in a good position? Below the red line, correct? How do you read that graph correctly?

I'll see how the therapy works on a setting of 13 pressure and EPR of 2 and study it for a week.

P.S. for those of you wondering what my doctor/tech said when he called and left me a message this morning?...message said that the Dr. suggested that I continue using the settings and machine as it is since I JUST SWITCHED MASKS...and report back to him in a week.

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AJimen05
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by AJimen05 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:14 am

DoriC wrote:Alex, I'm sure you're aware by now, but just wanted to point out that you're a lucky man to have these experts taking care of you. I'm still always amazed when I see them "in action" on a difficult case. I can't wait to see your AHI in a week or two!!
Hey Dori,

I am the luckiest man in Miami right now. I'm so grateful to have found such a forum site like this and have so many friends on here from everywhere pointing me in the right direction and giving me such great advice. Too all of you, I am forever in your debt!!!

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Lizistired
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by Lizistired » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:23 am

AJimen05 wrote:

....Dr. suggested that I continue using the settings and machine as it is since I JUST SWITCHED MASKS...and report back to him in a week.
Because he sleeps fine.

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AJimen05
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by AJimen05 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:31 am

Lizistired wrote:
AJimen05 wrote:

....Dr. suggested that I continue using the settings and machine as it is since I JUST SWITCHED MASKS...and report back to him in a week.
Because he sleeps fine.

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DreamDiver
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by DreamDiver » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:40 am

AJimen05 wrote:I've been pressing them about the Autoset and it seems they are not too keen on the idea...nor is my DME. I will keep an eye on the leak line...How do you know when it is in a good position? Below the red line, correct? How do you read that graph correctly?

I'll see how the therapy works on a setting of 13 pressure and EPR of 2 and study it for a week.

P.S. for those of you wondering what my doctor/tech said when he called and left me a message this morning?...message said that the Dr. suggested that I continue using the settings and machine as it is since I JUST SWITCHED MASKS...and report back to him in a week.
When looking at the leak graph, ideally what you want to see is a flat line at the bottom of the graph. If there are a few spikes here and there, no big deal. If you see lots of erratic graph just below the red line, you're still leaking, and it's worth figuring out how to arrange your mask so it doesn't leak as much. If spikes go above the red line for just a second or two during the night, it's not a big deal. It's just a maximum pressure for your session that night. If it's above the red line for a continuous period like a few minutes or half an hour, you're not really getting therapy during that time. That's bad.

The DME is going to press not for an Auto because they're much more expensive for the same cost to you. I wish you the best luck with Apria. I found my local Apria to be adversarial at every turn.
Things to look out for:
1. Make sure you are 'compliant' -- no less than four hours of mask time per night every night. More if you can make it happen. This is important when it comes to making sure the insurance pays.

2. Make a spreadsheet of your out-of-pocket costs for the machine for every month you're paying for it through Apria. Don't forget to include the amount of out-of-pocket you'll pay beginning next January when your Out-of-pocket expenses start fresh. Chances are, you'll pay more out of pocket with Apria than if you just bought the machine outright from CPAP.com. (You pay more at Apria because they wrap RT-associated billing costs in with your price instead of billing the RT as a separate specialist, so if like the local contact with your DME, the trade-off may be worth the extra cost.)

3. Whatever the DME says, make it clear to your doctor you would really like an Autoset. If you are pleasant but persistent, and you seem competent, the doctor will hopefully allow it. The DME has to give you what he prescribes. Keep the original prescription from your doctor and give a copy to your DME. Don't give away your original prescription, in case you want to order something on line.

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DreamOn
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by DreamOn » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:07 pm

SleepingUgly wrote:If you have periods of dense events, and then periods of no/low events, I would wonder about positional apnea or REM-dependent OSA. But we can't tell that yet.
I've been thinking along those same lines, SU.

Image

In this chart, I had noticed how the duration of the apneas increased in the middle of the session, and wondered if that may be related to sleep position or REM. There are many 40-second apneas, and some are even longer because they go off the chart. It's very difficult to tell what's going on with such a limited number of hours. I'm not even sure when Alex is sleeping or awake. Things may look quite a bit clearer when there are more hours recorded in one night, as sleep-cycle patterns will become more obvious.

There have been so many excellent suggestions here! To summarize, some things to consider are pressure adjustments, EPR, leak rate, and sleeping position. You are very fortunate to have found a mask that's comfortable, with few leaks! That's a big hurdle for most of us. Change things one at a time, so you know what works. It's generally recommended that you stay at one setting for a week or so since there can be nightly variation, but your case may be a little different since your treated AHI has been so high. Be sure to keep good records, recording things like pressure, EPR, mask used, sleep position, hours of use, AHI, AI (obstructive and any centrals), and leaks. It will be helpful to have this information as you tweak things.

Regarding sleep position, it can be very difficult to know whether you're rolling onto your back during the night. There are some ways to try to prevent that, such as filling a small backpack with something heavy or sewing a tennis ball(s) into the back of a tight shirt. There are a few commercial products too.

My own solution was cheap (free, actually). I made a homemade tennis ball setup to discourage myself from back sleeping. I cut a hole in the bottom of a tube sock, guided an old belt through the sock, put in two tennis balls, and secured the tennis balls in place with three rubber bands. I wore it wrapped around my upper body, just under my armpits, with the tennis balls on my upper back. It may not work very well wearing this around your waist because it would fit into the small of your back. Effectiveness may also depend on how soft your mattress is.

Regarding machines, if your insurance bills by code (most do!), an APAP and a CPAP do use the same billing code (E0601). That means that the insurance shouldn't care which machine you get. The DME may care because they make less profit on a CPAP. A doctor may care because he may want to see you more often (more money) and/or he is associated with a sleep center (more studies if you're not doing well). You may need to push the doctor/DME very hard for an APAP. Do that within the first 30 days. APAP should make self-titration easier, but you can do it with a CPAP if you have to. Another thing, if insurance is involved they will have a minimum number of hours that you need to use the machine per night in order for them to continue to pay for it. That's another reason to work on increasing your mask time.

Alex, you're doing a terrific job figuring this out! You have some of the most experienced people helping you on this thread, so you're in good hands. We are like family around here. But I hope you can develop a good relationship with your doctor too. I commend you for taking an active role in your therapy. It is absolutely essential, especially in a case like yours. I'm also impressed that you have such a wonderful sense of humor and clarity of mind! I would be a cranky basket case.
Last edited by DreamOn on Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AJimen05
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by AJimen05 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:31 pm

DreamOn wrote:
SleepingUgly wrote:If you have periods of dense events, and then periods of no/low events, I would wonder about positional apnea or REM-dependent OSA. But we can't tell that yet.
I've been thinking along those same lines, SU.

Image

In this chart, I had noticed how the duration of the apneas increased in the middle of the session, and wondered if that may be related to sleep position or REM. There are many 40-second apneas, and some are even longer because they go off the chart. It's very difficult to tell what's going on with such a limited number of hours. I'm not even sure when Alex is sleeping or awake. Things may look quite a bit clearer when there are more hours recorded in one night, as sleep-cycle patterns will become more obvious.

There have been so many excellent suggestions here! To summarize, some things to consider are pressure adjustments, EPR, leak rate, and sleeping position. You are very fortunate to have found a mask that's comfortable, with few leaks! That's a big hurdle for most of us. Change things one at a time, so you know what works. It's generally recommended that you stay at one setting for a week or so since there can be nightly variation, but your case may be a little different since your treated AHI has been so high. Be sure to keep good records, recording things like pressure, EPR, mask used, sleep position, hours of use, AHI, AI (obstructive and any centrals), and leaks. It will be helpful to have this information as you tweak things.

Regarding sleep position, it can be very difficult to know whether you're rolling onto your back during the night. There are some ways to try to prevent that, such as filling a small backpack with something heavy or sewing a tennis ball(s) into the back of a tight shirt. There are a few commercial products too. My own solution was cheap (free, actually). I made a homemade tennis ball setup to discourage myself from back sleeping:

Image

I cut a hole in the bottom of a tube sock, guided an old belt through the sock, put in two tennis balls, and secured the tennis balls in place with three rubber bands. I wore it wrapped around my upper body, just under my armpits, with the tennis balls on my upper back. It may not work very well wearing this around your waist because it would fit into the small of your back. Effectiveness may also depend on how soft your mattress is.

Regarding machines, if your insurance bills by code (most do!), an APAP and a CPAP do use the same billing code (E0601). That means that the insurance shouldn't care which machine you get. The DME may care because they make less profit on a CPAP. A doctor may care because he may want to see you more often (more money) and/or he is associated with a sleep center (more studies if you're not doing well). You may need to push the doctor/DME very hard for an APAP. Do that within the first 30 days. APAP should make self-titration easier, but you can do it with a CPAP if you have to. Another thing, if insurance is involved they will have a minimum number of hours that you need to use the machine per night in order for them to continue to pay for it. That's another reason to work on increasing your mask time.

Alex, you're doing a terrific job figuring this out! You have some of the most experienced people helping you on this thread, so you're in good hands. We are like family around here. But I hope you can develop a good relationship with your doctor too. I commend you for taking an active role in your therapy. It is absolutely essential, especially in a case like yours. I'm also impressed that you have such a wonderful sense of humor and clarity of mind! I would be a cranky basket case.
Hey you,

I'm not such a great side sleeper...i'm usually on my back but i've noticed that with my machine its easier to sleep halfway on my side.
You know, I've been pretty pushy with my Dr. and DME the past 3 days and they still haven't budged. (I even stopped by and dropped off printouts of the last 4 days of graphs and quality data) But I'm at the point that as long as I can manually titrate the pressure that I need and I can consistently get good numbers, I might just stay with the cpap. I'm a pretty easy going guy and why add so much stress over this now? I did call my insurance to see about their policies on replacing this machine. And you're right, there has to be an alloted amount of time under the mask each day before they even think about replacing the unit...plus I just past the 30 days a few days ago.

And thanks on the compliments on my mental state. Meditation/Tai Chi helps alot but even with that...I would notice how my body and mental awareness were breaking down.

You guys are the best and its great to have some new familia!

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DreamOn
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by DreamOn » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:03 pm

Hey, you. Yes, additional familia is always good! This is the most supportive and helpful forum I have ever been involved with!!! You're fitting right in too.

I have mild/moderate sleep apnea, so my situation isn't quite the same as yours, but I've done just fine using straight CPAP. I was also unable to convince my doctor that I needed an APAP machine! I tried numerous times and finally gave up. I was fortunate that I got good results from my S8 Elite II CPAP, but I still wanted to try APAP. So, 7 months into therapy I purchased a new S9 Autoset with my own money from a private seller (at that time, it was okay to sell ResMed equipment at cpapauction.com, but now it's not allowed).

Anyway, I've been using the S9 Autoset for 9 months now. At first, I used it as an APAP. I found that didn't work well for me at all. So I eventually returned to CPAP. I think I've found my own sweet spot pressure at 7.8 (titrated pressure was 6). I've had many zero-AHI nights (last night was one of them), and most of the time my AHI is 0.5 or less. Most important, I sleep like a log and I feel great! And I don't regret purchasing the S9 Autoset out of pocket in the least. It's a fabulous machine, and I love the heated ClimateLine hose! The APAP capability may come in handy if my pressure needs do change over time. And I like to experiment from time to time.

In your own case, I think you might do better with APAP, since it can vary pressure according to your needs throughout the night. But we do what we can. Perhaps some time in the future you can purchase an APAP on your own. It can be done. And it doesn't need to be a sleep doctor who writes the prescription either. CPAP.com (who provides this wonderful forum for us!) will accept prescriptions from a variety of health professionals, including:
  • Medical Doctor
  • Doctor of Osteopathy
  • Psychiatrist
  • Physicians Assistant
  • Nurse Practitioners
  • Dentist
You have an excellent machine that's capable of reporting all the data. That's what's most important. I look forward to following your progress. I think you're going to do great!

P.S. I don't know when your avatar photo was taken, but you look so awake and cheerful! I would look like death warmed over with an AHI as high as yours was. I'm glad you're taking good care of yourself.

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AJimen05
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by AJimen05 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:22 pm

Thanks DreamOn. I feel so alert right now, I haven't felt like this in a very long time. Actually, that picture was taken on Christmas last year...in that pic, I added 10 lbs from what I usually weigh. Lbs I attribute to my OSA. I look forward to shedding that off soon.

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Pugsy
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by Pugsy » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:48 pm

AJimen05 wrote:I feel so alert right now, I haven't felt like this in a very long time.
I am so glad that you can say that you are feeling better. I kinda figured you would have a "hallelujah" day if you could get some relief to what you were experiencing. I envy you in that regard but alas, my daughter is older than you and I just have more baggage to sort through at my age.

I know this has been hard and frustrating for you but it will get better, it will get easier and you have a lifetime to reap the rewards of finding this early and learning how to deal with it.

Yeah, bummer about the DME and doc being stubborn about the APAP but like you say it is workable now.
Maybe later when money permits and you decide to have a backup machine, you can maybe get the APAP later.

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DreamOn
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by DreamOn » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:02 pm

AJimen05 wrote:Thanks DreamOn. I feel so alert right now, I haven't felt like this in a very long time.
I imagine you do! Just think what you'll be feeling like once your AHI is even lower and you're getting a full night's sleep! I have a feeling that your body's going to be telling you that it needs lots of sleep soon. To the extent you can, indulge in sleep. You have a lot of "sleep debt" to make up for.

Sleep apnea-related weight gain is a problem for a lot of us. It can really mess up our hormones and metabolism -- and lack of sleep also deprives us of needed energy and motivation. The first improvement I noticed is that I began to be able to think more clearly. I felt like I was living in a fog before, and I had great difficulty with logical thinking, word recall, and concentration. About a month into therapy, I no longer had to get up during the night to go to the bathroom. That was nice. I eventually felt more energetic. Anxiety and depression are common side effects of untreated sleep apnea, and many people find relief from that. About 9 months into therapy I noticed other positive changes, as I began to sleep even more deeply. Anyway, you have a lot to look forward to!

* * *

Pugsy, it's good to see you here again! I haven't been posting very often for quite some time (busy with many projects!), but I do read posts and I know that you were away for quite some time.

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Pugsy
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Re: Someone please help this Newbie!

Post by Pugsy » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:47 pm

DreamOn wrote: Pugsy, it's good to see you here again! I haven't been posting very often for quite some time (busy with many projects!), but I do read posts and I know that you were away for quite some time.
Thank you,
Yes I sort of took a vacation from the internet for quite a while. It is good to be back and see the same people and all the new people.
I will also probably have some projects as soon as the weather warms up a bit. I have lots on my "to do" list here at the farm. Right now a bit too dreary and cold to get all worked up about going outside..

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