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Dunno what the hell you are babbling about here.

roster wrote:

BlackSpinner wrote:
Yes you only have to read the history of Victorian Unionism to see that. There was a reason for the union movement (and socialism) If you don't want to read history just read Dickens. Most of today's regulations come about over the dead bodies of worker and consumers to temper the greed of corporations and individuals.

Why do you leave out the government? The government was in a very primitive state of denying individual rights at that time. Males who did not own property could not vote. Women could not vote, sue, or own property.

In divorces, men always took custody of the children. In cases of adultery, a husband only had to prove his wife's adultery. A woman had to prove her husband had not only committed adultery but also incest, bigamy, cruelty or desertion. This was the state of government regulation.

Homosexuality was illegal. Homosexual acts were a capital offence until 1861.

What does that have to do with her comments?

roster wrote: Wikipedia has a nice summary paragraph that says a lot about free markets:

The Victorian Era began with the elite in total control of society and its politics. The Elite class was made up of 300 families which were firmly established as the traditional ruling class. However, the development of new types of values, such as individualism, introduced changes throughout the Victorian Era. The idea of the self-made man became dominant in the middle class. Similar to the American Dream, the idea is that, if they work hard enough, all men can become wealthy.

"The Elite class" operated as a government. This government had control over the market.

The great gains of the Victorian era were the move toward a government that protected individual rights and that included the right to own a business, run it as you see fit, and compete in a free market.

The freeing up of markets during the Victoran age was an early and important step in the globalization of free markets that led to the greatest prosperity in world history. A prosperity in which we still live today. A prosperity in which individuals refuse to work in bad conditions and refuse to let their children work at all. Only through the prosperity brought by free markets and capitalism have we arrived at this position.

Yes, we do need limited government to protect our rights and in the U.S. we are very fortunate to have an established Republic with a God-inspired Constitution to protect us from the government. Now we need to elect leaders who take their oath to the Constitution seriously.

Everyday we vote "for" or "against" individual businesses with our dollars. Please go to the voting booth and vote to keep this inalienable right. Government has control of politics, if government also gets control of the economy, tyranny follows quickly.

And today's "Elite class" are the corporate CEOs and they control the so called "free-market" through OUR government.

Our constitution works fine if people would just go out and vote without influence from corporate media advertisements and vote from the ground up (ie. local politics influences the upper levels of politics) and vote independent of political party.

Everyday, our vote gets diluted with corporate business dollars. Please do go to the voting booth and vote for candidates (not political parties who get their funding from corporations). Corporations have control of OUR government, the future threat of tyranny will be from the corporate oligarchy -- free-markets imply survival of the fittest -- A God-inspired "do unto others before they do unto you" -- and corporations can do a whole lot more to you than you can do to them ... just ask the "small people" along the northern Gulf Coast.

I go along with much of what you are saying but mostly I go along with get out and VOTE! Make sure your candidate is on the same wavelength as you are and if it turns out that he/she is not VOTE THEM OUT at the next opportunity. There have been a few recalled over the years as well. We can also vote with our dollars and with our feet. Stop donating to that candidate or that party. Stop patronizing that corporation.

The right of the People to keep and bear arms in our Second Amendment had many reasons, not the least of which was the intention of the creators of the Constitution to enable "We the People" to protect ourselves against tyranny. Was it not the tyranny in Europe that gave that initial boost to our great land in its formative years? Yet, looking around yourself you will find (a) the majority of Americans wish to keep that Second Amendment right of the People to keep and bear arms intact, and (b) it has taken dozens of years and much hard work by "We the People" to regain that right after WWII. What I am suggesting is the "We the People" do have strength in numbers with our government if we only excercise it.

BTW, with all due respect to the anti-gun lobby out there - what we have seen since the right to keep and bear arms has been restored by the state governments and now reinforced by the SCOTUS is that the violent crime rate has dropped dramatically nationwide. And I cry for all of those that have been murdered, raped, etc., during the Brady period of "guns are bad" - Luby's Cafe in Texas, all of those school massacres, rest stop rapes galore, etc. ad nauseum.

Off on a tangent.... sorry. Large corporations are not exempt from the law - they just have the dollars to adjust the laws to their benefit. But always remember that it is "We the People" who have the votes to counter those dollars and we need to make our voices heard.

What ever happened to the laws against price fixing and restraint of trade? They used to have teeth.

Does anyone else think that this might be the sort of thread that could start to get a little political if everyone isn't careful?

Might?

Like if someone were to ask something like, um, how nationalised healthcare would fix pricing even worse?

Yeah, that would be stupid to even ask such a question.

So far, it would seem that politics hasn't entered into the discussion. Besides, when we were talking about dentistry last week, I think it might have taken a few days, but things have severely calmed down since then.

roster wrote:

BlackSpinner wrote:
Yes you only have to read the history of Victorian Unionism to see that. There was a reason for the union movement (and socialism) If you don't want to read history just read Dickens. Most of today's regulations come about over the dead bodies of worker and consumers to temper the greed of corporations and individuals.

Why do you leave out the government? The government was in a very primitive state of denying individual rights at that time. Males who did not own property could not vote. Women could not vote, sue, or own property.

First of all government is not about individual rights, never was and never will be. Government is about - surprise! running the country and protecting its citizens from harm.

The great gains of the Victorian era were the move toward a government that protected individual rights and that included the right to own a business, run it as you see fit, and compete in a free market.

Um well that existed under the Romans you know,( I think even Jesus had something to say about it happening in the temple), and during medieval times - even women could run businesses under the "sole femme" rulings.

The freeing up of markets during the Victoran age was an early and important step in the globalization of free markets that led to the greatest prosperity in world history. A prosperity in which we still live today. A prosperity in which individuals refuse to work in bad conditions and refuse to let their children work at all. Only through the prosperity brought by free markets and capitalism have we arrived at this position.

Laughing my head off - I come from 3 generations of union organizers - this came from the work done by unionists. My grandmother went to work at 6 yes they were that prosperous.

Yes, we do need limited government to protect our rights and in the U.S. we are very fortunate to have an established Republic with a God-inspired Constitution to protect us from the government. Now we need to elect leaders who take their oath to the Constitution seriously.

Your constitution outlaws religious influence and comes from Native American and ancient Greek sources (ie pagan)

Everyday we vote "for" or "against" individual businesses with our dollars. Please go to the voting booth and vote to keep this inalienable right. Government has control of politics, if government also gets control of the economy, tyranny follows quickly.

That only works when you have choices. Remember Hitler was voted in and so was Stalin. You have no clue what "tyranny" is like. Tyranny is when they put 10 random people against the wall to shoot because you objected to something - like made this thread.

Rooster wrote:The great gains of the Victorian era were the move toward a government that protected individual rights and that included the right to own a business, run it as you see fit, and compete in a free market.

BlackSpinner wrote:Um well that existed under the Romans you know,( I think even Jesus had something to say about it happening in the temple), and during medieval times - even women could run businesses under the "sole femme" rulings.

The reason that Jesus turned the tables in the Jewish Temple had nothing to do with the government. The Israelite government at the time permitted the money-changers. After all, they stood to gain by the practice. They were the religious elite, which, at that time, were the government. In ancient Israel (if memory serves - from reading, not from being there, LOL), the Kings could not be Priests and vice versa. But in Jesus's time (500 years into the Exile), there was no King on the throne. So the people were ruled by the religious class (Pharisees, mostly). Jesus's temper flared because of what the "religious" were doing to his Father's house, even quoting Scripture to say so.

As for women running businesses in medieval times, I can't speak to that.

Roman Hokie wrote: The reason that Jesus turned the tables in the Jewish Temple had nothing to do with the government. The Israelite government at the time permitted the money-changers. After all, they stood to gain by the practice. They were the religious elite, which, at that time, were the government. In ancient Israel (if memory serves - from reading, not from being there, LOL), the Kings could not be Priests and vice versa. But in Jesus's time (500 years into the Exile), there was no King on the throne. So the people were ruled by the religious class (Pharisees, mostly). Jesus's temper flared because of what the "religious" were doing to his Father's house, even quoting Scripture to say so.

As for women running businesses in medieval times, I can't speak to that.

Correct - it had nothing to do with the government - which was the point I was making.

who wrote:Does anyone else think that this might be the sort of thread that could start to get a little political if everyone isn't careful?

"Who" do you think started this thread?

The same guy who constantly posts threads here to incite political conflict (actually he just parrots Glen Beck views like a windmill over and over).

And I for one (and others too), try and make sure he stands corrected ... or falls or whatever.

Good call, BlackSpinner. I guess I just wanted to hear myself talk.

who wrote:Does anyone else think that this might be the sort of thread that could start to get a little political if everyone isn't careful?

Just in case it does, I've got a supply of microwave popcorn and beer ready.


Den

While I find all this polictal bickering real exciting and would love to join in , I must return this back (some what) to the OP topic with a question.
I am not sure that I fully understand this post since I am in a constant fog. I am wondering how all this will affect me getting a CPAP machine through my ins. I was looking real close at a S8 Elite. (I'm not 100% sure that I will even need to get one yet but am doing research just in case.)

I was started on a Resmed S8 Elite in Oct of 06 and used it faithfully until I was switched to a bi-level in Mar 08. I LOVED that Elite - so much so that I INSISTED on a Resmed VPAP Auto when I was switched to a bi-level. The lady who bought it from me LOVES it as well. She had intended it as a backup PAP but having once used it it became her primary PAP - AND her travel PAP as well. She is a licensed CKC and AKC dog show judge and is on the road many weekends a year for judging assignments.

Roman Hokie wrote:Yeah, BlackSpinner, but now we have union greed going on. I live in a small town and one of the teachers (the state has "tenure" for school teachers here...) makes six figures. About 5% more than the school principal.

Of course, California's teachers are complaining, too, and the average income of those teachers in Capistrano is about 81k. Funny, cuz when they strike, they say, "It's not about the money."

I can understand factor-based unions. But not public service unions.

Just for the record, the government education system in the U.S. is performing very poorly and in many states, unions and government administrators have transformed the purpose of the education system into providing jobs and benefits for state-licensed teachers and administrators.

The big problem is that poorly performing teachers are never fired. This is not all teachers - there are plenty of good teachers. The good teachers would like to see the system changed and the poor performers fired.

The solution is in how the money is moved. Currently, taxes are collected and the money is transferred to the schools. This is a system that will fail by design.

The solution is to transfer the money to the students (in the form of vouchers). Then let the market work. Government schools can continue to exist. Unions can continue to exist. Let the students (parents actually) decide whether they want to go to a government school, a unionized school or a private school. Things will be straightened out in a hurry. The government schools and unions will change quickly or be out of business. Parents will take care to spend their kids' vouchers at schools that are educating and not at ones that are into all the silliness and incompetence we have today.

Here is a fascinating and depressing documentary on the education "cartel" - http://www.moviewatchlist.com/movie-the_cartel

Yeah, in New York, it takes only 2 years for a public school teacher to get "tenure" as long as it's in the same district for those two years. Then they can suck and keep their jobs.

Of course, in New York, they cannot strike and still have to work without a "union contract" which means they keep their jobs and only don't get increases. But in this economy, that's still a pretty good thing have happen.