O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

when, after about about year, the "wonderful" socialized medicine over there still hadn't treated her breast cancer. She was diagnosed in a couple of months, but then nine months later, she still hadn't been treated. So, they came back here so she could be treated.

I know this is just one story, but I've heard so many, from people I know, from friends of friends, this and other forums, from Canada and the UK.

Unless that was with in the last 6 months then you have old anecdotes that are totally invalid kind of comparison. Both countries health care are constantly in change to deal with waiting times. Plus often the patient is their own worst enemy.

Why don't you check out the "how can we afford it" thread that just started?

Over 33,212,696 people are getting adequate to excellent free health care in Canada - so far there have been scary stories about maybe a dozen people - I think those are pretty good customer service stats.

Just the auditing alone will add millions to the cost of health insurance. Doctors records will be audited on a constant basis

Most universal health plans work like this : doctor checks if the diagnosis and treatment are in the billing options - if yes it gets done if no then they check with other options.
Auditing means spot checking occasionally - it doesn't mean check and verifying every invoice received. Bloody hell your income tax can be audited but it isn't audited for every single return for every claim!

one section gives 30 million non-citizens (including illegal aliens) free health care. Guess who picks up the bill? The taxpayer of course.

All those illegal aliens are working providing services to you and paying income tax - not paying tax is the quickest way to get caught.
You are getting all the benefits and none of the inconveniences. Get rid of illegal aliens and your economy will collapse, they do all the jobs you don't want to do at a salary you won't accept - your food costs will double.

You guys are nothing but a bunch of wimps running around like chickens without heads screaming "the sky is falling" while you are being plucked naked by the fat cat insurance companies who are pointing up saying "look look"!

If these provisions are enacted does it sound like Hitler's policies . . . or the freedom we have in the USA?

My parents lived under Hitler, my father was in his slave camps - I find this totally reprehensible, stupid and ignorant. Any one who compares universal health care to to Hitlers regime doesn't have a brain worth saving or anything worthwhile to say.

If a 25 year old and a 65 year old have alife threatening disease. Since the 25 year old has many more portential years of life ahead of him he should receive preferential treatment.

ALL organ replacements list use those criteria, all ER decisions use those criteria. Get a brain.

You are all right. I was too extreme in my comparison. When I pulled it up this morning, I realized it should have gone with my first choice. . I originally wrote draconian. but . . . I sincerely regret including it.

FDr Emanuel also wrote in the Lancet on January 31, 2009 (edited for length) If a 25 year old and a 65 year old have alife threatening disease. Since the 25 year old has many more portential years of life ahead of him he should receive preferential treatment.

In the America I know, both a 25 year-old and a 65 year old man who have a life threatening disease can receive the best of care. A life threating disease can be anything from pneumonia to cancer or beyond that. What is wrong with both receiving treatment?


] If these provisions are enacted

[/quote]

To everyone who reacted to this statement, did your eyes see the word . . if . .. If can be used in a sentence to indicate the circumstances that would have to exist in order for an event to happen. I wrote IF IF, IF, IF these provision are enacted!!!!!!!!.

Do you personally want his evaluations of who shall get guaranteed care, and who should not get guaranteed care enacted???? IF------------ these provisions are enacted?[/color] Jan

SaltLakeJan wrote: [4040] If these provisions are enacted does it sound like Hitler's policies . . . or the freedom we have in the USA?[/color] Jan

To everyone who reacted to this statement, have you lost your ability to read? I wrote IF IF, IF, IF these provision are enacted!!!!!!!!.

Do you personally want his evaluations of who shall get guaranteed care, and who should not get guaranteed care enacted???? IF these provisions are enacted. Jan

No, I haven't lost my ability to read.

First, you're quoting things out of context (and you haven't provided any links as yet to back up those quotes). Second, he didn't make that statement regarding Hitler. YOU did. The "IF" doesn't matter. You compared healthcare reform to Hitler's policies, and I'm sorry, but that's just wrong (and totally offensive to me, personally, as a Jew of eastern European descent).

Neither "if" or "but" will count in those kind of statements.

I have friends who lost their entire extended families in those camps. The only reason they are alive is someone else claimed them as their kids. I grew up hearing the stories of "for every Nazi that died they shot 10 Dutch people randomly selected off the street so we made sure to bury them under the roses in the park".

By the way our health care system has to deal with those that survived the camps - they do that by turning the bathrooms into spa like setting because the sight of a regular shower sends the seniors into hysterics.

In the America I know, both a 25 year-old and a 65 year old man who have a life threatening disease can receive the best of care. A life threating disease can be anything from pneumonia to cancer or beyond that. What is wrong with both receiving treatment?

No where ever it is any different - there is a finite amount of MONEY for ANY system, finite number of CAREGIVERS, a finite number of ORGANS, a finite amount of TIME. It doesn't matter where you go even if you have billions you still go on a waiting list for organs, for a surgeon and someone younger will get that organ first.

.
Oh no, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Whatever shall I do?!?!

Sorry, couldn't help myself!!

A person does not have to be fearful and hiding in a corner with a box over their head just because they don't believe something will work. As I've stated, I'm not fearful. I'm concerned. Fear accomplishes nothing; concern can spur a person to make a difference in a situation that they think is wrong.

Who here has actually read OUR bill (and by "OUR" I mean the U.S.'s bill). My friend has, and has been sharing many interesting things that have spurred us both to be more vocal in our disagreement with the bill. She's not sharing her interpretation, but having me read certain parts and we're discussing them. (She has a medical background and experience both professionally and personally.) I am going to start reading it today; something I should have done long before now.

Again, I reiterate. The U.S. government handling this will be a fiasco. What U.S. government PROGRAMS are running great and smooth, and are like they were supposed to run when initially started? How many programs were started with one objective and possibly a timeframe, and then were completely changed ?

I wouldn't live anywhere else, but that doesn't mean I think it doesn't need improvement. And I thank God that I live in a country where I have the freedom to express my mind, my concerns, my disapproval, and can speak and rally for change, against change, or against a change that's no good!

BleepingBeauty wrote:
A little common sense would go a helluva long way in this country. But we have a population that gobbles up whatever propaganda is being fed to them and then regurgitates it all over the place as if it's factual. How sad.

I agree wholeheartedly. Many people on BOTH sides of an issue do this to try to make their point if they can't provide any factual proof. But I also believe that people who disagree on an issue can both have factual information but still be on different sides of the fence on an issue. And sometimes that's where the real "fighin'" occurs! They agree on a fact, but one side just can't believe the other side thinks that particular fact is okay. (Clear as mud, huh?)

Propaganda: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person. Ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect.

Until I read this definition, I thought propaganda was always misleading or false information, but I guess that's not necessarily so.

I believe it's SO important that citizens read, read, read for themselves, something that in the past I'm ashamed to say I've not been good at doing. I haven't been involved enough. Once you read something or research something for yourself, then you can decide intelligently whether what a person or group is saying is fact or false information.

PST wrote: I find it much easier to believe that those whose political and economic interests will not be served by heath care finance reform are willing to lie about what this bill does, and rely on the ill-informed and credulous to repeat it, than I am to believe that monsters exist in such numbers who would destroy the fabric of our society for no benefit to themselves. So, what's the web site?

I also believe the "other side" would, could, and does do the same thing. Whenever there is an issue, especially one as large and life-changing as this one, there are folks on BOTH sides of the fence that will always feel the need to lie or try to mislead others about what something does or does not do.

I feel I need to mention again, I'm not rich and I'm about to lose my healthcare.

This is my apology to everyone one. I have no excuse for being so insensetitive and stupid. When I got up this morning and read my comments and the impact of what I had done hit me, I decided it was so egregious to the forum and its members that the only sacrifice I can make to show my sincerity is to withdraw from posting on Cpaptalk.com.. Not forever, I couldn't stand that, but for a period of time.. Since I found cpaptalk.com in January of this year; outside of my family & friends, CPAP has become a cherished element in my life. I love the forum, I love the help and support I have received here. I feel to saddened to do more Jan.
I have been asked for my sources. I did list most of them. I hope I have included everything.

Jan

B.B while you were posting me I was sending personal pm apologies to you and others. I have no excuse for such an lapse of good sense. As I said in the pm to you I have followed Muffy's sleep schedule almost to the letter. And starting going to bed around 9 pm to 9:30. I have only stayed up late one night since early May. Last night The more I read the more I became upset. and I made the horrible mistake of comparing what I thought was going to happen to Universal Health Care to Hitler rather than use the word draconian. I couldn't stand it in my post, and I edited it out. Unfortunately my words live in in the quotes of others. I was beyond tired, I was exhausted, and obviously was not thinking clearly . . it is no excuse I know. I feel too upset to want to excuse myself . . . I can't put into words how upset I am.

I was quoting from his 1996 Hastings Center Article, where he is a Fellow. . it is long & I only quoted part of it. I said in the post that I could not find evidence that he has denied any of his remarks. Last night I listened to Dr Emanuel speaking on a video and he referred to the article, It was while he was with the N.I.H. ( I have no idea where I found the video)
(Dr Emanuel quote from HastingsCenter.

The civic republican or deliberative democratic conception of the good provides both procedural and substantive insights for deleveloping a just allocation of health care resorces. Procedurally, it suggests the need for public forums to deliberate about which health services should be considered basic and should be socially guaranteed. Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the poliity-those that ensure future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations-are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Conversely services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason.

On Rationing care, I referred to the N.Y. Post 7-24-2009, Deadly Doctors.

But Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of their patients and consider social justice, such as whether the money could be better spent on somebody else.

I referred to his analogy of the 25 year-old and 65 year old where both have a life threatening disease. Dr Emanuel said in his article in the Lancet, 1-31-2009 "Since the 25 year old has many more potential years of life ahead of him, he should receive preferential treatment: Many diseases, even life-threatening ones can be treated. I asked why in USA both could not be treated

Again I apologize. Jjan

Jan, you apologized, sincerely apologized. Everyone here probably at one point (or more) in their lives has said something they regret in the heat of a discussion or disagreement.

This topic is a hot-button issue to so many people on both sides and sometimes we can get carried away with how we express things. Sometimes a person means harm in the heat of the moment, and then later regrets the comments deeply. Sometimes no harm is intended, but thinking wasn't clear in the midst of debate. I know you didn't intend harm. (And sometimes people say hurtful and awful things, and never think twice about it.) I've run into them all in my 50 years, and unfortunately been on the "apologizing" side many times as well.

Please stay and post. I've read a lot of comments on this forum since I joined (over two years) that I really feel should have been apologized for, but never were. (Not to or about me personally.) And many people have apologized for things posted and later regretted. You've apologized to those who were offended, publicly and privately.

Please stay.

SaltLakeJan wrote:This is my apology to everyone one. I have no excuse for being so insensetitive and stupid. When I got up this morning and read my comments and the impact of what I had done hit me, I decided it was so egregious to the forum and its members that the only sacrifice I can make to show my sincerity is to withdraw from posting on Cpaptalk.com.. Not forever, I couldn't stand that, but for a period of time.. Since I found cpaptalk.com in January of this year; outside of my family & friends, CPAP has become a cherished element in my life. I love the forum, I love the help and support I have received here. I feel to saddened to do more Jan.

As I said in my PM to you, I very much appreciate your sincere apology, Jan. (And I'm betting anyone else who took offense does, too.) I hope you don't leave the forum (even for a little while), but I'll understand if you feel the need to do so. (I did that myself, recently, when my therapy was going so badly that I couldn't read posts from anyone referencing their good CPAP experience without wanting to punch my pc in frustration. Depression was beginning to settle over me, so I just backed away for a couple of weeks. Then I regrouped and started reading posts here again, albeit selectively.)

I love this group (as I know you do, too). Take a little time away if you feel it's the best course of action for you right now. But do come back soon, as I (and I'm sure many others) would miss you around here.

Oh, and P.S.: I wouldn't rely on anything written in the NY Post.

SaltLakeJan and BleepingBeauty,

We all need time off sometimes and we certainly deal with fatigue and....well, between the three of us we have most ailments covered. I just want you two to know that once a triplet, always a triplet. I refuse to be un-triplet-ed. You guys have been a big help to me. We all need to do what is best for our mental, physical, and emotional welfare...that has to come first. But know that this forum and "triplet mar" is here (except when she needs to take a CPAPtalk vacation once in a while too).

mar

robertmarilyn wrote:SaltLakeJan and BleepingBeauty,

We all need time off sometimes and we certainly deal with fatigue and....well, between the three of us we have most ailments covered. I just want you two to know that once a triplet, always a triplet. I refuse to be un-triplet-ed. You guys have been a big help to me. We all need to do what is best for our mental, physical, and emotional welfare...that has to come first. But know that this forum and "triplet mar" is here (except when she needs to take a CPAPtalk vacation once in a while too).

mar

Thanks, mar. I was going to post something similar, referencing our "triplet" status around here.

Ditto from me to you and Jan. One for all and all for one.

BlackSpinner wrote:All those illegal aliens are working providing services to you and paying income tax - not paying tax is the quickest way to get caught.
You are getting all the benefits and none of the inconveniences. Get rid of illegal aliens and your economy will collapse, they do all the jobs you don't want to do at a salary you won't accept - your food costs will double.

You guys are nothing but a bunch of wimps running around like chickens without heads screaming "the sky is falling" while you are being plucked naked by the fat cat insurance companies who are pointing up saying "look look"!

Some of those statements have been bugging me.......so I did some Googling.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/arch ... t_151.html

http://fetchingjen.blogspot.com/2008/03 ... efore.html

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/freedo ... 60321.html

http://news.findlaw.com/prnewswire/2009 ... 91011.html


Seems to me that if that WERE true, California would be awash in money instead of being bankrupt.

Yeah, we're being plucked, alright......by too many hands. We've had too many stupid people trying to run things they have no expertise in or getting involved with.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/a_camel_i ... _committee



Den

WearyOne wrote:.What U.S. government PROGRAMS are running great and smooth, and are like they were supposed to run when initially started? How many programs were started with one objective and possibly a timeframe, and then were completely changed ?

Medicare. If you tried to get rid of it, you would have a revolution on your hands. Furthermore, the only reason private eployment-based health insurance works at all is Medicare. Imagine what this country would be like if everyone lost his or her coverage at retirement, just as their need for medical care was increasing.