O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

rooster wrote:

Wulfman wrote:Splitting hairs.......

It can't be bought if it ain't for sale......and, it can't be sold if there ain't a market for it......or the money with which to pay for it.
You think that these companies don't have a place in their accounting ledgers for "Political Contributions"?
These political parties NEED money to perpetuate their existences......and they know where they can go to get it. These companies contribute to BOTH parties to cover all their bases.


Den

I will continue to disagree with you on this point. It is not splitting hairs. Where you believe the problem is should logically determine how you address the problem.

There are three possibilities for the location of the problem:

1. Politicians are wrong to sell their votes and favors.
2. Organizations are wrong to buy politicians' votes and favors.
3. A system is wrong if it allows politicians and organizations to buy and sell votes and favors.

The problem should not be addressed at point 1. Given the opportunity, out of a thousand people, 999 will sooner or later sell votes and favors. The "one honest man" theory. Addressing the problem at point 1 will only slow down the process and lead to more people in prison over the years. Not a good situation.

The problem should not be addressed at point 2. Given the opportunity, out of a thousand people, 999 will sooner or later buy votes and favors. The "one honest man" theory again. Addressing the problem at point 2 will only slow down the process and lead to more people in prison over the years. Again, not a good situation.

The problem should be addressed at point 3. If the system does not give anyone the power to sell votes and favors, then no one will have the power to buy votes and favors. It may take a political and social upheaval, or at least a Constitutional revival, to get us out of this mess the Founders so greatly feared.

The human race cannot be cured of suboptimized self-interest. Utopia will never be achieved in this world.

I really don't see any disagreement. The political history of this country has had many, many corruption scandals.....although in more recent times, it seems like it's getting worse.....and worse.

I believe that much of this stuff IS illegal......as evidenced by the number of legislators and lobbyists who have gone to prison. Unfortunately, they wrote/left too many other loopholes in the legislation that's supposed to prevent it. It's hard to imagine that they would write and vote for more legislation that would kill the goose that's laying their golden eggs.


Den

BlackSpinner wrote:...You're afraid you're too incompetent organize a rescue mission for the 47,000,000 people without health care?...

Agree 100%... Americans have been sold a bill of goods by the fat cats. Why we're so afraid to call them greedy..er, ahem, folks (yes that's a nice word for them, much nicer than what I really think of them and y'all should realize that I understand a business is in business to make a profit) is beyond my comprehension. Are we so incapable of believing that we can and will do what is necessary, what sort of mindless creatures have we become that Orwell's double-speak is now acceptable? Push Americans just so far and we become aggressive: it took the Sputnik for us to quit arguing and organize, it took Kennedy's challenge to get us to the moon, it took the Great Depression to reform financial institutions (thanks Congress for undoing all those protections in the 90s)...what will it take now, haven't we already hit rock bottom? Can we not see how desperately we need infusions of cash into millions of small to medium companies to get Americans back to work (esp since American companies took American industries and jobs out of the country) and that bank bailout failed miserably (I'm thinking throw the money-changers out of the temple)? Can we not understand that corporate welfare to the multi-nationals is backrupting the economy? Can we not understand that the tax policies since the 20s of shifting the tax burden from the super-rich to the middleclass has helped decimated the middleclass (am I the only 1 who remembers what the top tax rate for individuals used to be before we became an of the rich, for the rich, by the rich nation)? Can we not understand that as long as companies practice medicine (insurance companies, HMOs, big phama) that healthcare deliverors will not be compensated fairly while the fat cats live high on hog laughing all the way to the bank as they profit from our healthcare dollars? Shame on us.

That number is now estimated to be about 80M; the 47M number has been in circulation for at least a decade.

Well Muse-inc

Watch out Atlanta, if your politicians have town hall meetings regarding health care, and Muse-Inc speaks, Prepare to hear the truth. She will blister the ears of the political fat cats with the truth.

Muse-Inc wrote:(am I the only 1 who remembers what the top tax rate for individuals used to be before we became an of the rich, for the rich, by the rich nation)? Can we not understand that as long as companies practice medicine (insurance companies, HMOs, big phama) that healthcare deliverors will not be compensated fairly while the fat cats live high on hog laughing all the way to the bank as they profit from our healthcare dollars? Shame on us.

I have been watching TV commentators who favor the President's desire for health reform. As they comment on Town Halls and Public Meetings where the people speak their mind and do so with emphasis. Where they yell and call out their feelings. The commentators call the protestors rude and disruptive. They do not want to hear that the American Public is sick and tired of "Fat Cat" politicians who take care of their health care. The American People are getting the Spirit our founding fathers had when they rebelled for freedom. We want health care costs brought down. We want to pay reasonable rates for our PRIVATE insurance. We want the a way to eliminate the ridiculous law suits - yet allow the medical law suits with merit. When the wrong kidney is taken out - you should have the right to sue. When one reconstructed breast isn't as perky as its mate, tough luck.

Our T V commentator should be congratulating the American Public for speaking out - showing how passionately they want to be treated fairly by Congress, and the President. Not sold a bill of goods -

Jan

With regard to my previous post......here's a couple of links to lists of names and categories.

http://politicalgraveyard.com/special/t ... grace.html

http://politicalgraveyard.com/trouble/


Den

Wulfman wrote:

BlackSpinner wrote:

Putting the government in charge of health care frightens me to no end.

You're afraid?
The country that faced down the British empire, the Alamo, cleared the countryside of hostile indigenous peoples, raised a flag on Iwa Jima?
And you're afraid?

BlackSpinner, It's is good you are pleased with Canadian Health Insurance. As I mentioned before I had friends from Western Canada who were seriously displeased with it.
Den, Wearyone, Dream Stalker & Muse-Inc have answered your questions from the point of view of U.S. Citizens
A good many of our politicians are bought & paid for by special interests. See Rooster's thread A lot of them are the old hacks who has "served" for 20 or more years.

Wulfman wrote:The biggest "PROBLEM" (actually there are multiple problems) is that the people who would be voting on this legislation have been bought off (huge campaign contributions) by the special interest groups......trial lawyers, drug companies, medical associations, insurance groups, equipment manufacturers and suppliers, etc., etc.

As "kittystar" alluded to, tort reform would also need to take place. Problem is, how do you "reform" it? (edited for length)
To me, the term "healthcare reform" would have to deal with all of the problem areas at once......legal, medical, manufacturing, insurance and controlling costs.
In my opinion, there are no legislators who are willing to take on all or even any of these areas......so, I predict that either nothing will be accomplished or whatever legislation IS passed will be to the benefit of the entities that are part of the problem.......and not to benefit of the people who actually NEED it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention three other areas which would need to be addressed/controlled......waste, fraud and abuse. Den

Jan

I was serious when I started this thread and we have great ideas. There have also been lights spots and WearyOne's post deserves a chuckle

WearyOne wrote:In all my other posts, I'm not even sure I answered Jan's original question!
Do I think we ever WILL have health police? Don't know, leaning towards yes.
Do I think we ever COULD have health police? You bet I do.

And considering my answer, I better restart that diet today and take the nearest pizza place off speed dial!

Pam

Jan

SaltLakeJan wrote: I have been watching TV commentators who favor the President's desire for health reform. As they comment on Town Halls and Public Meetings where the people speak their mind and do so with emphasis. Where they yell and call out their feelings. The commentators call the protestors rude and disruptive. They do not want to hear that the American Public is sick and tired of "Fat Cat" politicians who take care of their health care. The American People are getting the Spirit our founding fathers had when they rebelled for freedom. We want health care costs brought down. We want to pay reasonable rates for our PRIVATE insurance. We want the a way to eliminate the ridiculous law suits - yet allow the medical law suits with merit. When the wrong kidney is taken out - you should have the right to sue. When one reconstructed breast isn't as perky as its mate, tough luck.

Our T V commentator should be congratulating the American Public for speaking out - showing how passionately they want to be treated fairly by Congress, and the President. Not sold a bill of goods -

Jan

Jan, WONDERFULLY said!!

I would like to applaud alnhwrd,
For the intelligent & brilliant analysis of the ideas posted here to obtain better health care in the USA..

alnhwrd wrote:The intelligence, wisdom, courtesy and humor prevalent throughout this very thorny topiced thread indicates that a great many people here are getting excellent CPAP therapy! IMHO if the members of this forum could be placed in charge of forging a solution we could come up with something much better and less costly that that which our supposed leaders have designed.

Jan

BlackSpinner, It's is good you are pleased with Canadian Health Insurance. As I mentioned before I had friends from Western Canada who were seriously displeased with it.

Of course nobody is satisfied, it would be a very dangerous thing to sit back and not hassle the system for improvement. Any system run by humans needs a eagle eye on it.

Besides which everyone is greedy - we want the best treatment from the best doctor, we want to be first in line for anything going, no waits and to be treated as if we were the only patient in the place. It ain't gonna happen unless your Bill Gates. From a patient point of view we want there to be an endless pot of gold, from a tax payers perspective we want the least spent as possible. those views are incompatible and a compromise will all ways leave people howling for blood.

At 84 my dad is not going to get a new heart, he complains but if it came to having to make the choice of some young person getting that heart or him, he wouldn't take it(but we would never hear the end of it) However Thursday night my mother fell and shattered her shoulder, yesterday she had an MRI and they operated and replaced the shoulder - no waiting- she will be in the hospital for up to 3 months and get phsio- they won't have to go bankrupt, or sell the house or any thing like that. The fact she has diabetes and a pace maker didn't affect the treatment they can afford. No one was there to tell dad to sign away the house or she won't be helped beyond emergency treatment.

"No one was there to tell dad to sign away the house or she won't be helped beyond emergency treatment." as blackspinner wrote.
glad to see that the hippocratic oath is still taken seriously somewhere. too bad a government has to force it!

Well Friends, I went to House of Rep. Web Site, and pulled up the proposed Bill Hr 3200. It is hard to understand, but I found a web site that clearified some of the sections. For example. I did look up Sect 123, page 30. It does state the will be a government committee to decide what treatment you can have & what your benefit will be.

I found other sections that said they had the right to ration (allot) Health care.

The Web site wrote that one section gives 30 million non-citizens (including illegal aliens) free health care. Guess who picks up the bill? The taxpayer of course. It's free to the 30 mil. non-citizens.

But our Govt. will have direct access to all your bank accounts to compel you to pay any out-of-pocket expense - they will just slip it right out of your account. If you are over-drawn, too bad. You get more bank fees.

The government will have access to all our records and they are goin' to have to hire tons of auditors. We are going to have to account for all our prescriptions before we can get another. Auditors will be checking what we spent last year against what we are spending now. Hope you don't need surgery. You might get it, you might not.

Just the auditing alone will add millions to the cost of health insurance. Doctors records will be audited on a constant basis.If this Bill is passed it will be far worse than anything Canada has.

Let's rally to fight against this during August. Call your Representatives. Write them a dozen letters. Let them know you are mad as heck, and you aren't going to take it any more. Did you know the middle-class citizens forstalled Hillary's Health Care in 1996. We can do it now.

Jan

SaltLakeJan wrote:Well Friends, I went to House of Rep. Web Site, and pulled up the proposed Bill Hr 3200. It is hard to understand, but I found a web site that clearified some of the sections. For example. I did look up Sect 123, page 30. It does state the will be a government committee to decide what treatment you can have & what your benefit will be.

I found other sections that said they had the right to ration (allot) Health care.

The Web site wrote that one section gives 30 million non-citizens (including illegal aliens) free health care. Guess who picks up the bill? The taxpayer of course. It's free to the 30 mil. non-citizens.

But our Govt. will have direct access to all your bank accounts to compel you to pay any out-of-pocket expense - they will just slip it right out of your account. If you are over-drawn, too bad. You get more bank fees.

The government will have access to all our records and they are goin' to have to hire tons of auditors. We are going to have to account for all our prescriptions before we can get another. Auditors will be checking what we spent last year against what we are spending now. Hope you don't need surgery. You might get it, you might not.

Just the auditing alone will add millions to the cost of health insurance. Doctors records will be audited on a constant basis.If this Bill is passed it will be far worse than anything Canada has.

Let's rally to fight against this during August. Call your Representatives. Write them a dozen letters. Let them know you are mad as heck, and you aren't going to take it any more. Did you know the middle-class citizens forstalled Hillary's Health Care in 1996. We can do it now.

Jan

Jan, what is the website that clarified things? I would be really interested.

Something I heard about today and watched part of: In Dallas on August 4, AARP was going to have a "listening meeting" as they called it, to inform its members what AARP was doing on its members' behalf regarding this health bill, and to listen to what its members wanted to say. She (AARP rep) didn't get two sentences out before the audience started voicing their disagreement with what she was saying. She ended up leaving before the meeting even started because AARP members kept disagreeing with what she was saying. One gentleman said he didn't remember ever being polled or asked what he, as an AARP member, wanted regarding healthcare. My husband is a member (and thus I am, although I never use anything they offer). But I do get their e-mails. Just last week received one with a link to a form to fill out that they were going to add to a list that was showing support for the bill. (I opted out of future e-mails from them as my response.)

I spoke to an acquaintance today and she relayed an incident regarding a person she knows who lived in England for 20 years (she and her husband). They were born here, moved to England, and then came back---when, after about about year, the "wonderful" socialized medicine over there still hadn't treated her breast cancer. She was diagnosed in a couple of months, but then nine months later, she still hadn't been treated. So, they came back here so she could be treated.

I know this is just one story, but I've heard so many, from people I know, from friends of friends, this and other forums, from Canada and the UK.

What we have needs fixing, not made worse by a plan that's doomed from the start, and one to which a great majority of Americans are strongly starting to voice their opposition.

Have you heard of Dr. Dr Ezekiel Emanuel, he is a White House Advisor to Pres Obama? He is also an M.D., PHD, Dept Head at N.I.H., & Cancer Researcher. He sounds like the perfect person to advise the Pres. He is also a controversial figure. He has said he thinks we need change in how we apply health coverage. Doctors try too hard to apply the Hipprocatic Oath to everyone as equally as possible, which drives up costs. He thinks we need to ration basic guaranteed care to only those who can fully participate in society. (I can find no record of him denying his 1996 Hastings Center Article)
To

[color=#0040BF ensure health future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full & active participation by citizens in public deliberations are to be socially guaranteed as basic][/color]

These lucky people have full reasoning skills, they are guaranteed health care.

converserly, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and SHOULD NOT BE GUARANTEED. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is the guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learn disabilities can learn to read and learn to reason.

anyone in this group does not get health services.
Dr Emanuel's policy as health care advisor to President Obama,appears that patients with dementia and the young who cannot learn to read or reason fully should be sacrificed for the common good. They will not get health services. Obama has said there will be difficult decisions in health care.

Page 85 line 7 of House Bill 3200 provides specifics to benefit levels for all health plans, giving the government the right to ration everyone's health care. It also basically rations the health care of every senior citizen in the USA.
I have not personally read page 85 line 7 of House Bill 3200.

Woops, did we forget Presidents, their families, ex presidents & their families. Congressmen and their families and ex congressmen have MANDATED a special health plan for themselves.

Dr Emanuel also wrote in the Lancet on January 31, 2009 (edited for length) If a 25 year old and a 65 year old have alife threatening disease. Since the 25 year old has many more portential years of life ahead of him he should receive preferential treatment.

If these provisions are enacted does it sound draconian to you . Too Harsh . . . or the freedom we have in the USA? Jan

SaltLakeJan wrote:If these provisions are enacted does it sound like Hitler's policies . . . or the freedom we have in the USA?
Jan

I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but I find this comment so offensive that I had to say so.

Comparing anything regarding the proposed healthcare reform in the U.S. to Hitler's policies is ludicrous and constitutes a bigger leap than the giant one that Neil Armstrong took for mankind in 1969 when he stepped onto the surface of the moon.

A little common sense would go a helluva long way in this country. But we have a population that gobbles up whatever propaganda is being fed to them and then regurgitates it all over the place as if it's factual. How sad.

SaltLakeJan wrote:Well Friends, I went to House of Rep. Web Site, and pulled up the proposed Bill Hr 3200. It is hard to understand, but I found a web site that clearified some of the sections. For example.

Jan, lets have the URL for the web site please so we can all evaluate the quality of the information. I find it much easier to believe that those whose political and economic interests will not be served by heath care finance reform are willing to lie about what this bill does, and rely on the ill-informed and credulous to repeat it, than I am to believe that monsters exist in such numbers who would destroy the fabric of our society for no benefit to themselves. So, what's the web site?

I'm never going to start a thread like this one, but I find it too difficult to simply let vile accusations pass. I wish I could. When the comparisons to Hitler start to fly, a forum can degenerate fast. I'm an old-time usenet user and I've seen it before. People who have a lot to offer one another on a particular area of common interest may have deeply felt differences on other questions. For a while we kept emotions in check in this thread, but that won't last long when you start invoking Hitler. This thread has come to illustrate Godwin's Law.