American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

spitintheocean · Post by **spitintheocean** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:04 pm

The published rules seem recognize CPAP as a necessary device (for whatever reason) and indicate that we are probably better off carrying it separately from anything else.

Do you have a copy of (or can you link) that ruling; is it an FAA regulation or some airline specific policy? Because I was getting the impression that this was just a favourable interpretation of the general rules governing medically necessary devices.

Ruby Vee · Post by **Ruby Vee** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:48 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:
How many of us actually need the cpap for use during flight?
It is not about that - it is about the fact that the airlines do not guarantee that you checked baggage will arrive in one piece within 24 hours of your arrival. Do you want to receive your cpap machine 3 days after it has been run over by a truck? Your checked luggage get THROWN in and out of the cargo hold, it sits on top of an open cart that races across the tarmac to hopefully the right plane and often when it makes a quick turn the baggage rolls off!

Plus the insurance is about $500 to $1000 - that's it. I don't know about you but that won't cover half of the cost of a new machine or my shoes for that matter. But my shoes are not a life necessity.

I haven't checked any luggage since 2001 when Delta lost my suitcase containing some irreplaceable (to me) items. It's still lost. We've been to Europe three times since then and across the country numerous times, all with one rolling carry-on and a backpack -- my two carry-on items. I don't expect the necessity of carrying a CPAP machine around to make me suddenly decide to check my baggage. The issue for me is that if the airline loses my luggage again, I cannot just go to the mall and buy myself enough clothes to last through my trip. I'm a plus-sized woman, and I couldn't even find appropriate underwear without going to Lane Bryant. (Yes, I know I should lose weight -- and I'm working on it with somewhat more enthusiasm since I'm now sleeping through the night at least half of the time.) I don't require a lot of "toys" in the cabin -- just my paperback books (2 of them usually, since I read fast) and my Palm. I can even get by without the food. But I don't want my rolling carry-on checked through because I don't want to deal with not having anything when I arrive at my destination.

And the money I got from Delta for losing my bag did not begin to pay for the sentimental value of losing the dress I wore to our wedding reception (taken along because we were celebrating our anniversary) or the perfect pair of jeans that fit just right and always made me feel special.

spitintheocean · Post by **spitintheocean** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:44 am

Here's a partial answer to my own question above. From the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) website:
http://www.tsa.dhs.gov/travelers/airtra ... index.shtm

"CPAP machines & respirators"

are specifically identified as

"Disability-related items permitted through the security checkpoint"

Unfortunately, this simply addresses the security implications and not the obligation of any airline to provide additional in-cabin storage. On the FAA website http://www.faa.gov/passengers/prepare_fly/baggage/ it states that the airlines are the authority on how many carry-on bags (if any) will be allowed within the cabin:

Plan to check more of your baggage and carry on less.
Check with your airline before packing to determine its carry-on guidelines regarding the number of items you may carry on and the maximum size of those items.
In certain situations the airline may require most or even all of your bags to be checked, so be prepared to do so.

I did find this interesting travel website that quotes the law and provides a chart of most domestic airline carry-on limits.
http://thetravelinsider.info/travelacce ... wances.htm

The Relevant Law and its Implications

The relevant law controlling passenger carry-on baggage is found in Title 14 of the US Code of Federal Regulations, (Aeronautics and Space PART 121—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS
Subpart T—Flight Operations
§ 121.589 Carry-on baggage.

(a) No certificate holder may allow the boarding of carry-on baggage on an airplane unless each passenger's baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program in its operations specifications. In addition, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the carry-on baggage program in the certificate holder's operations specifications.

(b) No certificate holder may allow all passenger entry doors of an airplane to be closed in preparation for taxi or pushback unless at least one required crewmember has verified that each article of baggage is stowed in accordance with this section and §121.285 (c) and (d).

(c) No certificate holder may allow an airplane to take off or land unless each article of baggage is stowed:

(1) In a suitable closet or baggage or cargo stowage compartment placarded for its maximum weight and providing proper restraint for all baggage or cargo stowed within, and in a manner that does not hinder the possible use of any emergency equipment; or

(2) As provided in §121.285 (c) and (d); or

(3) Under a passenger seat.

(d) Baggage, other than articles of loose clothing, may not be placed in an overhead rack unless that rack is equipped with approved restraining devices or doors.

(e) Each passenger must comply with instructions given by crewmembers regarding compliance with paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d), and (g) of this section.

(f) Each passenger seat under which baggage is allowed to be stowed shall be fitted with a means to prevent articles of baggage stowed under it from sliding forward. In addition, each aisle seat shall be fitted with a means to prevent articles of baggage stowed under it from sliding sideward into the aisle under crash impacts severe enough to induce the ultimate inertia forces specified in the emergency landing condition regulations under which the airplane was type certificated.

Commentary
You'll note that these regulations do not specify sizes or weights. But they do say the airline must enforce its own policies.

Update March 2009
Some more tweaks and changes to airline policies. While some airlines have predictably tightened up on their carry-on policies, others have become more liberal. The table below has been updated accordingly.

Personal Items

The standard allowance typically provides for a bag of up to a certain size plus one 'personal item'.

What is a personal item? Some airlines give examples, and suggest that a personal item may be :

Briefcase

Camera

Handbag/Purse

Laptop (in carry bag)

Other items not exceeding 36" in total dimension

Reading Matter

Small book-bag style backpack

Umbrella

raylo · Post by **raylo** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:51 am

spitintheocean wrote:
The published rules seem recognize CPAP as a necessary device (for whatever reason) and indicate that we are probably better off carrying it separately from anything else.
Do you have a copy of (or can you link) that ruling; is it an FAA regulation or some airline specific policy? Because I was getting the impression that this was just a favourable interpretation of the general rules governing medically necessary devices.

I have previously quoted American's policy, here is the link:

http://www.aa.com/aa/i18nForward.do?p=/ ... owance.jsp

Here is Continental's policy:

http://www.continental.com/web/en-US/co ... ators.aspx

Here is something from the TSA, that would seem to indicate the government feeling:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... index.shtm

spitintheocean · Post by **spitintheocean** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:27 am

Sorry raylo, I missed your earlier reference to AA's policy.

Based upon Bill Bolton's links viewtopic/t42879/CPAP-on-aircraft--Supp ... -Info.html, it seems that since May 13, 2009 airlines must allow cpap machines to be included as carry-on baggage and even allow their use in flight when carrying an FAA sticker.

It seems pretty clear that cpap equipment is deemed to be an assistive device and the airlines must allow them to be carried on board in addition to the normal carry-on baggage limitations if there is absolutely no non-medical supplies included in the bag.

Section 382.121 – Stowage of Mobility Aids and Other Assistive Devices in the Cabin

44. When may a bag containing an assistive device be counted towards a passenger’s carry-on bag limit?

Answer: An assistive device is any piece of equipment that assists a passenger with a disability to hear, see, communicate, maneuver, or perform other functions of daily life, and may include medical devices and medications. A carrier may count toward a passenger’s carry-on limit a carry-on bag containing items other than an assistive device. For example, a bag containing both medications related to the passenger’s disability and toiletry items or one in which a back brace and clothing are packed would be subject to the carry-on limit even though the medications and back brace meet the definition of assistive device. To the extent possible, all of a passenger’s assistive devices should be included in one bag. When making a determination as to whether an item qualifies as an assistive device, the carrier may ask the passenger how the item assists the person in performing a function of daily life

Your earlier advice about packing the cpap separately is absolutely correct.

LinkC · Post by **LinkC** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:45 am

Although I've been shown where AA's policies include CPAP as an "assistive device", this reg seems to suggest that's not a mandatory interpretation. I still do not see how it "assists a passenger with a disability to hear, see, communicate, maneuver, or perform other functions of daily life". Maybe on an overnight flight where you planned to USE your CPAP inflight. Otherwise, it clearly leaves it up to the airlines to decide whether it counts as a carryon.

But I second the advice that you not co-mingle items. You're just asking to get turned down...

raylo · Post by **raylo** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:22 am

LinkC wrote:Although I've been shown where AA's policies include CPAP as an "assistive device", this reg seems to suggest that's not a mandatory interpretation. I still do not see how it "assists a passenger with a disability to hear, see, communicate, maneuver, or perform other functions of daily life". Maybe on an overnight flight where you planned to USE your CPAP inflight. Otherwise, it clearly leaves it up to the airlines to decide whether it counts as a carryon.

But I second the advice that you not co-mingle items. You're just asking to get turned down...

I'm thinking that sleeping is a function of daily life. Sorry for the wise crack, but some of the other assistive devices and/or exceptions to the limits aren't meant for use on the flight, some may or may not be used on the flight. Landing hundreds or thousands of miles from home at what can be odd hours without checked bags, getting delayed at a stopover airport, etc. could be pretty big problems for some CPAP users. The TSA clearly believes and states that CPAPs should go be allowed through security after screening. This is highly suggestive of them being allowed as a carry-on. The FAA doesn't seem to specify CPAP in lists of devices that must be allowed on board, using more general terms. They also don't mention many other assistive devices by name. However, on other parts of their regulations and clarifications they mention CPAP as a such a device, particularly about how CPAP can be used when necessary. There would seem to be no guidance or language about who decides if you might need to use the CPAP or not, or how the decision is to be made (that is what length or time schedule for a flight). It just says that airlines must permit use of CPAP (http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation ... o09006.pdf)
I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, but it would seem fairly obvious that if the use of a device must be permitted, than the device must be permitted.

All of this would make me believe that CPAP is regarded by the regulators as one of the assistive devices that must be permitted and the language about mixing medical stuff and non-medical stuff would seem to suggest that such items are intended as an extra allowed item (maybe to prevent discrimination claims).

But anyway, most of the airlines, themselves, have written their policies to specifically include CPAP devices as exceptions to the cary-on baggage limits. I would be reluctant to think that these policies were written and published without legal review.

Paul56 · Post by **Paul56** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:33 am

Well, the way things are with baggage and the airlines... I don't believe one should push the system to the point you end up waving printed copies of regulations at the boarding agents and getting involved in arguments at the gate.

No one is going to disallow ONE carry-on that meets the size guidelines. In that carry on go the essentials... leave the kitchen sink at home.

raylo · Post by **raylo** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:58 am

Paul56 wrote:Well, the way things are with baggage and the airlines... I don't believe one should push the system to the point you end up waving printed copies of regulations at the boarding agents and getting involved in arguments at the gate.

No one is going to disallow ONE carry-on that meets the size guidelines. In that carry on go the essentials... leave the kitchen sink at home.

I absolutely agree, that one shouldn't bring on more than they need to. I also believe that for some trips it should be silly to check a bag (if common sense were to rule the world). And the purpose for some of these regulations is so that people don't have to make a choice of what to check based on CPAP.

I also think it is reasonable that when one is carrying less than the airline's own published guidelines that they should be yelled at, insulted, and/or be told they are in violation.

I have been on several flights where if that one carry will not fit below the seat, it is being checked if the bins are full.

The airlines need to update their guide lines and re-evaluate pricing plans to avoid the chaos that is present day airplane boarding.

Shouldn't the airline personnel know their own regulations, and the FAA and TSA regulations. Shouldn't the people at the main counters and gates know what is going to happen once you step foot on the plane? Shouldn't they develop policies and procedures to deal with the havoc they have wrought?

The published guidelines and government rules were fine within the long tradition of checked bags being included in the price. The pricing changes (without planning to deal with the results) brought this on - not passengers who are trying figure this all out.

The passengers are paying customers and more and more we are having dumb policies crammed down upon us.

billbolton · Post by **billbolton** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:41 pm

spitintheocean wrote:Based upon Bill Bolton's links viewtopic/t42879/CPAP-on-aircraft--Supp ... -Info.html, it seems that since May 13, 2009 airlines must allow cpap machines to be included as carry-on baggage and even allow their use in flight when carrying an FAA sticker.

There is some non-trivial wriggle room regarding use in flight, so an all-inclusive "must" is too strong a statement of the position.

The Department recognizes that foreign carriers operate under a variety of laws and regulations. We have revised section 382.133 to clarify that foreign carriers need to permit the carriage and use of a ventilator, respirator, CPAP machine and POC only if among other things, the device can be stowed and used in the passenger cabin consistent with applicable TSA, FAA, and PHMSA regulations and the safety or security regulations of its government. In addition, section 382.9 allows a foreign carrier to petition the Department for a waiver of compliance with any provision in Part 382, including section 382.133, if an applicable foreign law or regulation precludes a foreign carrier from complying with that provision.

(Rule in effect beginning May 13, 2009 - "73 FR 27614, May 13, 2008, as modified by Correction Notice of 74 FR 11469, March 18, 2009. This document includes the modifications from the Correction Notice." - http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/Pa ... 2-2008.pdf )

Cheers,

Bill

Muse-Inc · Post by **Muse-Inc** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:37 pm

Hey, all you airline travelers, given the reduced air pressure in the cabin at cruising altitude -- do you get sleepy? Drink more caffeine? Walk around? Break out the xPAP and sleep? Not an issue? I read an article that said airline travel was..hmm, let me remember how they phrased it...more dangerous for people with apnea because of the reduced pressure. Just curious.

My 'travel' consists of driving downtown to haul me, my buddy, and all our stuff over the Labor Day holiday down to the Hyatt to check-in for the four days of Dragon*Con, a huge scifi-horror-fantasy convention (45,000 people/day). I've been amazed since I got my CPAP how many other folks have xPAPs and show up at the Handicapped Services booth to get a medical sticker for their badges stating they have sleep apnea & listing any drugs they take -- that sticker entitles the person and any accompanying 'helper' to get back into the hotel where they are checked in (when the Sheriffs closes off one of the hotels for overcrowding) and alerts EMS folks to our condition....pretty cool practice for a convention. That and my medic alert 'bracelet' surprisingly make me feel more confident in case of accident.

billbolton · Post by **billbolton** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:44 pm

Muse-Inc wrote:Not an issue?

Not an issue for me.

Cheers,

Bill

ThatMaskedMan · Post by **ThatMaskedMan** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:39 am

Raylo wrote:

I also think it is reasonable that when one is carrying less than the airline's own published guidelines that they should be yelled at, insulted, and/or be told they are in violation.

Say what?

Bearded_One · Post by **Bearded_One** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:56 am

ThatMaskedMan wrote:Raylo wrote:
I also think it is reasonable that when one is carrying less than the airline's own published guidelines that they should be yelled at, insulted, and/or be told they are in violation.
Say what?

I think that there was an implied /s tag at the end of Raylo's post -- it was sarcasm.

Silver Pelt · Post by **Silver Pelt** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:21 am

Muse-Inc wrote:Hey, all you airline travelers, given the reduced air pressure in the cabin at cruising altitude -- do you get sleepy? Drink more caffeine? Walk around? Break out the xPAP and sleep? Not an issue?

I get sleepy as soon as I sit in the airplane seat while still at the gate; I think that's a combination of years of conditioning/practice and learning to take catnaps when appropriate as a way to cope with my (undiagnosed) OSA. I'll have to see if that changes now that I'm getting restful sleep every night. Still, sleeping is a great way to kill time on a boring flight. It's not like I'm going to miss any great food or wonderful movies. I don't notice any problems at altitude. In fact, I don't snore while sitting upright or slightly reclined, so using xPAP in flight isn't an issue.

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American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

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Re: American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

Re: American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

Re: American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

Re: American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

Re: American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

Re: American Airlines took my medical equipment bag

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