PurSleep Product Safety

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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StillAnotherGuest
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Next Time Just Say So

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:06 pm

aromatherapy n. A form of alternative medicine that uses volatile liquid plant materials, known as essential oils (EOs), and other aromatic compounds from plants for the purpose of affecting a person's mood or health.

distraction therapy n. Something entirely different.

If all you're trying to do is hide noxious odors or change the focus of attention, there's a pile of simpler, cheaper and even more effective ways to do that besides the arbitrary use of essential oils. For instance
-SWS wrote:..that Bubble Gum aroma you mentioned earlier in the thread, for instance, may not work primarily at the biochemical level. Surprisingly, I found that Bubble Gum aroma to be one of the more relaxing aromas, once I managed to get the concentration down.
Simple mask tolerance using "smells good" technique is easily accomplished by using a product specifically designed for that purpose. This product, interestingly, just happens to have a "Bubble Gum" scent:

Maskuum

And a very common method of hiding mask odors, especially in children (as in preparing for the application of anesthesia masks) is to stroke on a little Chapstick with whatever your flavor de jour might be (even I won't try to stretch the risk of exogenous lipoid pneumonia with that one, particles jumping out of the mask and into your lung!)

Avon's product is good for this, I'll try to find some on sale, usually some circulating on EBay.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Presenting SAG 'n Sleep IV

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:06 am

At this point it might be beneficial to allow this thread to divide into two arms:

1. The complementary and alternative medicine practice of aromatherapy (AT); and

2. Diversion therapy (DV)(hey, may as well give it an acronym), classically presented in a medical context in the following anecdote:
A man walks into a doctor's office and says "Doctor, my head hurts."

The doctor takes a 7-pound sledge hammer and, in a mighty swing, smashes the guy's foot.

The patient, screaming in pain, yells "What did you do that for?"

The doctor replies, "I'll bet you forgot all about your headache!"
If all we're trying to do is find something to divert attention or disguise noxious odors, this can certainly done a heckuva lot cheaper than what has been presented thus far. And perhaps a heckuva lot safer.

In the hospital setting, DV has been utilized for years, attempting to come up with a solution to the "I hate that mask" issue, specifically, anesthesia masks. Speaking of interesting anecdotes, one early solution tended to give monitoring equipment a little diversion of it's own:

I Think My Mass Spect Caught A Buzz

But since "a little" of the ol' spirits is probably OK:
ozij wrote:I'm sure you know that some people are given the recommendation to drink a glass of red wine daily
and probably not a lot of the "self-monitoring" crowd are using mass spectrography, that shouldn't be an issue.

Interestingly, the company noted in the aforementioned study is still alive and doing quite well, thank you, and if we want to look at DV instead of AT, perhaps we need to change our search criteria to "candy oils":

LorAnn Oils

So now the ol' SAG noggin starts to really smoke, and he goes to Muffy's baking supplies shelf and there's a whole treasure trove of fruit and flavoring extracts! And y'know what? They're all way past the "GRAS" category- they're food! The grocer's shelves are full of this stuff!

Or you can also get 'em from

Betty's Place

I believe that this should be the next cpaptalk "Product Challenge" - LorAnn Oils (dab in the mask) vs PurSleep (lot of extra junk).

And SAG will personally reimburse anyone who tries the LorAnn Oils (the $1.09 size). Simply send a SASE and $2.09 to help cover shipping and handling costs.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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ozij
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Moniitoring red wine intake

Post by ozij » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:00 am

Let's see if I have this right:
A drop of expensive EF on a diffuser pad near you cpap may harm you lungs.
A dab of Vaseline on your nasal pillow mask may cause exogenous lipoid pneumonia
And a dab of Lorann's extra strength candy oils on your mask is OK?


O.

_________________
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And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.
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StillAnotherGuest
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It's From "A Higher Authority"

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:05 am

ozij wrote:And a dab of Lorann's extra strength candy oils on your mask is OK?
Obviously, since
LorAnn flavors are certified Kosher by Star-K
SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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ozij
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Ban dihydrogen monoxide

Post by ozij » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:22 am

http://www.dhmo.org/
Frequently Asked Questions About Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO)
What is Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.
For more detailed information, including precautions, disposal procedures and storage requirements, refer to one of the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) available for DHMO:

Kemp Compliance & Safety MSDS for DHMO
Chem-Safe, Inc. MSDS for Dihydrogen Monoxide
Applied Petrochemical Research MSDS for Hydric Acid
Original DHMO.org Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Dihydrogen Monoxide (html)
<snip>
Should I be concerned about Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Yes, you should be concerned about DHMO! Although the U.S. Government and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) do not classify Dihydrogen Monoxide as a toxic or carcinogenic substance (as it does with better known chemicals such as hydrochloric acid and benzene), DHMO is a constituent of many known toxic substances, diseases and disease-causing agents, environmental hazards and can even be lethal to humans in quantities as small as a thimbleful.

What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:
Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Machine: Resmed AirSense10 for Her with Climateline heated hose ; alternating masks.
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Good advice is compromised by missing data
Forum member Dog Slobber Nov. 2023

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StillAnotherGuest
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Re: Ban dihydrogen monoxide

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:36 am

ozij wrote:http://www.dhmo.org/
Frequently Asked Questions About Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO)
What is Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.
For more detailed information, including precautions, disposal procedures and storage requirements, refer to one of the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) available for DHMO:

Kemp Compliance & Safety MSDS for DHMO
Chem-Safe, Inc. MSDS for Dihydrogen Monoxide
Applied Petrochemical Research MSDS for Hydric Acid
Original DHMO.org Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Dihydrogen Monoxide (html)
<snip>
Should I be concerned about Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Yes, you should be concerned about DHMO! Although the U.S. Government and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) do not classify Dihydrogen Monoxide as a toxic or carcinogenic substance (as it does with better known chemicals such as hydrochloric acid and benzene), DHMO is a constituent of many known toxic substances, diseases and disease-causing agents, environmental hazards and can even be lethal to humans in quantities as small as a thimbleful.

What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:
Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.
What Does That Have To Do With The Price of Cheese?

Unfortunately, none of the other discussion points, concerns, white papers or other evidence are dismissed quite as easily.

SAG
Image

Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

-SWS
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by -SWS » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:59 am

wikipedia article wrote:The dihydrogen monoxide hoax involves listing negative effects of water under an unfamiliar scientific name, then asking individuals to help control the seemingly dangerous substance. The hoax is designed to illustrate how the lack of scientific knowledge and an exaggerated analysis can lead to misplaced fears


Kind of reminds me of my former client (now retired) who once commented that she had a chemical sensitivity to chlorinated tap water. At the time she headed up a biochemical and behavioral consulting firm, so I didn't bother to question her comment in passing. But I do remember thinking something along these lines: "Boy, that must be pretty darn rare... otherwise municipalities would quit placing chlorine in the tap water." So even tap water can be dangerous for some of us. And chlorine descriptions along with medical anecdotes can justifiably sound pretty horrific as well.

But getting back to ozij's intended humorous example about exaggerated scientific analysis. Whether it's exaggerated analysis or flat out wrong analysis, it's guaranteed to happen a lot. And I believe that's why statistics and empiricism eventually became so important to science. Despite statistical/empirical disciplines in science such as epidemiology, John P. A. Ioannidis contends that the human mind is still pretty darn good at getting it wrong:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1182327

And Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman tells us that even genuine experts tend to heuristically draw plenty of incorrect conclusions along the way as well:
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/econ ... ecture.pdf
(thanks to ozij who provided me a link to that paper some weeks ago)

I don't think there's enough scientific information presently available for anybody to empirically claim that nightly exposure to PurSleep is largely safe or unsafe on a long-term health basis. I've read plenty of great health and science related threads by SAG. But I have to admit that rhetoric makes this thread read much more like a biased shotgun presentation----aimed specifically at condemning PurSleep. And despite the guise of science in this thread, I don't think the quality of science is anywhere as sound or unbiased as I have read here on so many occasions. And I think that just may have been ozij's point in citing the above DHMO text.

But I will very gratefully accept SAG's repeated and valid point of concern that long-term nightly EO exposure is an empirical unknown. I think his heart and intentions are definitely in the right place.

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ozij
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by ozij » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:32 pm

Speaking of the guise of science.... A fascinating book about the guys* of science is "Opening Pandora's Box" by G. Nigel Gilbert and Michael Mulkay -- and I have just discovered it is there on the net - to be read for free! Highly recommened.
http://www.soc.surrey.ac.uk/books/OPB/prelim.htm
The research reported in this book was conceived when a scientist friend showed us a copy of a letter written by a biochemist which seemed to indicate by its tone that there was a raging and, so we thought, sociologically interesting controversy going on in an area of biochemistry called 'oxidative phosphorylation'. Like other sociologists of science, and like our scientist friend, we assumed that part of the job of the sociologist was to strip away the formal side of science, and show what was really going on; an area of lively debate would, we thought, be an excellent site for such investigations
*No typo...

O.

Edit: dropped "L" from end of link

_________________
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Last edited by ozij on Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Good advice is compromised by missing data
Forum member Dog Slobber Nov. 2023

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StillAnotherGuest
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For The High End User...

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:55 pm

BTW, did you know that LorAnn Oils also has "food grade" essential oils?

Obviously, quite a bit more expensive, but for those "discerning" users who are really concerned about quality:

LorAnn Food Grade Essential Oils

Although I wonder how you get to "food quality". Must have something to do with the FDA. I mean, is there like a limit to contaminants? Some sort of quality control? No stamping of the lavender leaves with bare feet? Or at least, wipe your feet before you jump in the tub?

SAG

-SWS
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Re: For The High End User...

Post by -SWS » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:19 pm

StillAnotherGuest wrote:Although I wonder how you get to "food quality". Must have something to do with the FDA.

Apparently it entails what Bret mentioned on page one about how he selected PurSleep oils (the underlined part about FDA GRAS designation):
SleepGuy wrote:I prefer to stand by Tisserand's Essential Oil Safety and the FDA list of essential oils that are "Generally Recognized as Safe" for human consumption.

Ozij, if you don't mind I've included your fixed link below:
ozij wrote:Speaking of the guise of science.... A fascinating book about the guys* of science is "Opening Pandora's Box" by G. Nigel Gilbert and Michael Mulkay -- and I have just discovered it is there on the net - to be read for free! Highly recommened.
http://www.soc.surrey.ac.uk/books/OPB/prelim.htm
Enjoyed the "guys" play on words as well as the link. And "Opening Pandora's Box" sure seems to confirm what Aristotle thought:
Man is by nature a political animal.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Is It Safe?

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:17 am

-SWS wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:Although I wonder how you get to "food quality". Must have something to do with the FDA.

Apparently it entails what Bret mentioned on page one about how he selected PurSleep oils (the underlined part about FDA GRAS designation):
SleepGuy wrote:I prefer to stand by Tisserand's Essential Oil Safety and the FDA list of essential oils that are "Generally Recognized as Safe" for human consumption.
Y'know there, -sws, and as noted by other posters, the I don't think that the "GRAS" designation alone guarantee safety. What does that really mean? When you think about it, does "generally regarded as safe" really inspire confidence? Especially as it relates to long term inhalation exposure?

Perhaps the next step in the "search for safety" is to try to get some standards together. Given the "standards" presently in aromatherapy, creating our own standards are probably good as any.

Whoa! Let's hold off on "food-grade" for now. Although LorAnn seems to have provided product for medical research and has a great track record, looking at some grading methods for EO (gleaned elsewhere):
The Four Grades of Essential Oils:

Grade A ~ pure therapeutic quality and made from organically grown plants, distilled at correct temperature, time, pressure and harvested at proper season.
Grade B ~ food grade, probably contain synthetics, pesticide, fertilizers, extenders, or carrier oils.
Grade C ~ perfume grade, probably contain same type of adulterating chemicals as food grade oils. Usually contain solvents which are used to gain a higher yield of oil per harvest.
Floral Water ~ a byproduct of the distillation process and is very high quality IF it comes from Grade A distillation process.
So I guess you CAN be stompin' in the "food grade" EO vat with athlete's foot! Ewww!!!

When I get back (out at seminar again)(Clue: It's 60 degrees this AM, so I ain't up there!) I think I'll give LorAnn a call in my "official" capacity and try to get some low-down and recommendations.

Regardless, maybe we should stick with "therapeutic grade" as a start. Getting MSDS sheets might be a good chore for later.

Meanwhile, note that the the recommendation in my sig was by a Qualified Health Care Professional, and she's not particularly bothered by the threat of witches or shotguns.

Nor am I.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

-SWS
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by -SWS » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:35 am

SAG, I don't think FDA GRAS designation is sufficient to earn "food grade" either. It seems to me that logically the FDA criteria for "food grade" must entail prohibiting EO's that fail to meet GRAS designation. While Googling the terms "FDA" and "food grade" I noticed there were food handling materials such as rubbers and plastics that can earn the FDA designation of "food grade".

So please let us know what you discover. As it stands, I have to guess it entails GRAS criteria as prerequisite. I sure could be wrong about that. But I'm guessing other logical food-grade criteria might entail adherence to manufacturing controls along the lines of safe handling materials & procedures (minimizing contamination risk), statistical controls or inspections...

Wouldn't you get a chuckle if LorAnn replied: "Well, the main thing is that factory employees are legally bound by the FDA to wipe their feet before entering the tub."


On Edit-- Essential oil grading criteria was also discussed in this post:
viewtopic/t18473/viewtopic.php?p=158416 ... 7b#p158500

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Georgio
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by Georgio » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:39 am

As long as it doesn't contain Georgia Peanut Butter I'm OK with it!
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-SWS
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by -SWS » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:44 am

Georgio wrote:As long as it doesn't contain Georgia Peanut Butter I'm OK with it!

On the serious side of that issue, here's the current recall list: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/p ... /index.cfm


Here's sleepyhead63's post from the above link:
sleepyhead63 wrote:This is the article I found on www. aromanotes.com that talks about essential oils:

What You Should Know About Essential Oils


Unfortunately, not all essential oils are created equal. Most of the essential oils on the market are what is called "perfume quality" or "fourth & fifth quality" oils. This includes oils found in health food stores.

To maintain all of the therapeutic qualities, it must be extracted by steam distillation using extremely low pressure & low heat so as not to defile the quality of the oil.

Many people think that when they buy an oil that is labeled as "pure" they are getting good oils. This is far from true.


There are 4 levels of therapeutic oils:

! PURE - This means the oil was not diluted with a lesser quality essential oil. For example: lavender oil is often cut with lavendin, which has very little therapeutic quality. "Pure" does not mean it has no chemicals added to it. In the U.S., all you need is 5% of essential oil in the bottle in order to label it "100% pure."

! NATURAL- This means the oil was not adulterated with vegetable oils, propylene glycol, SD Alcohol 40 or other chemicals.

! COMPLETE - This means the oil was distilled at low heat & low pressure so that all the therapeutic properties are there. They have not been rectified or purified (which means stripped or redistilled.) Essential oils are often redistilled to make a small amount of oil go farther. They can make more profit that way. The problem is, when you redistill the oil you lose the therapeutic properties. It's like using a tea bag over & over again. An example: France is the number one producer of lavender oil. In 1997 they produced 25 tons of lavender and 67 tons were shipped to the U.S. alone. What is wrong with this picture?

! GENUINE or GRADE A - These are the cream of the crop. Great care is taken at every step of the process. Seeds- not from hybrids, soil- organic soil that never has chemicals put on it. Chemicals are never used on the plants in the field. Distillation by steam at low pressure & low temperature in upright containers & no chemicals are ever used in the process. Must have clarity of definition (one plant could have 200 species.) The time in the distiller is also important- cypress oil needs to be distilled for 24 hours. Many companies will distill at higher temperature for a shorter time. This will destroy the quality of the oil. The distiller must be no more than 50 miles away from the sight where the plants were harvested.

They must have Gas Chromatograph readings with an embossed seal that does not come from their own lab.
Then & only then can they have the words "Grade A" on the label.

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Songbird
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by Songbird » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:43 am

-SWS wrote:rubbers .... that can earn the FDA designation of "food grade."
Just to clarify, -SWS, you DID mean something like "various types or grades of rubber," didn't you?

(Glad to see you're back among the living, BTW.)

Marsha
Resp. Pro M Series CPAP @ 12 cm, 0 C-Flex, 0 HH & Opus 360 mask (backup: Hybrid) since 8/11/08; member since 7/23/08
A good laugh and a long sleep are the best cures in the doctor's book. ~ Irish Proverb