OT: Government Caused The Current Recession

track wrote:.......

Funny thing is I consider this forum for the most part all of those things you say you don't like. ......

I don't know what that means and I never mentioned one thing that I dislike about the forum

track wrote:.......

.....it's all our faults for allowing the excesses that we have lavished in the last 15 years.

I don't buy into this collective guilt crap. The way I have handled my finances, my responsibility as a father and a husband, paying my taxes, obeying the laws, not defrauding anyone, preparing for the future, supporting charities, and not infringing on others' rights is something I would not change in retrospect.

And I have the feeling that you and many others here have been very responsible. Track, Get rid of that left-leaning, touchy-feely, collective guilt.

TSSleepy wrote: ......... And that's what unchecked capitalism will do.............

How would you know? For at least the last 70 years we have had a mixed socialist/capitalist system and one of the most regulated business environments on the globe.

track wrote:
.......

Funny thing is I consider this forum for the most part all of those things you say you don't like. ......

I don't know what that means and I never mentioned one thing that I dislike about the forum

You said you wouldn't come to the forum if it was sterile and didn't talk about politics etc...thus....things you wouldn't like...sterile,no politics,etc. My point was I consider this forum relatively sterile when compared to the forum I spend most of my free time at. ..we have different perspectives based on different experiences.

Liberal? No...actually a registered republican in the republican state of Kansas. Fiscal conservative and social progressive....but then labels don't mean much now days as the pubs were in power for most of the last 8 years and they certainly weren't fiscally conservative...running up the biggest deficits in our history. Blaming the government for all our problems is just being nieve...in my humble opinion. THere were millions that profited from the excesses ...perhaps you were not one of them and in that case you get a free pass. I didn't profit much either so let's both take a free pass.

rooster wrote:For at least the last 70 years we have had a mixed socialist/capitalist system and one of the most regulated business environments on the globe.

Yeah. And Social Security is the biggest "Ponzi scheme" ever contrived.......however, I've wondered about the concept of "insurance", too.

Lots of blame to go around in what's transpiring now......public and private sectors (businesses and individuals), stock markets, banks.....you name it.

The thing I wonder when I hear something like "Trillions of dollars of value wiped out....(lost or whatever)", I wonder.....Where did it go?......or did it ever exist (in fact) to begin with?

What a mess!!! And, I'd rather not speculate where and how this is all going to end up.....it's too scary to think about.

Den

Cost of people is coming home to roost.
We all caused this... imo.
Everyone wants gubmint handouts.. despite the pricetag attached.
(witness Obama going after a bill to cap the salaries of ceos of banks who applied for gubmint handouts. gubmint is the camel with the nose in the tent.)

Lots of blame to go around in what's transpiring now......public and private sectors (businesses and individuals), stock markets, banks.....you name it.

True dat

The thing I wonder when I hear something like "Trillions of dollars of value wiped out....(lost or whatever)", I wonder.....Where did it go?......or did it ever exist (in fact) to begin with?

A Hummer was worth a lot more when gas was a dollar a gallon than it is when gas cost 5 dollars a gallon. The same applies to stocks, housing, etc....they are worth more in a growing economy than they are in a down economy because companies make money in a growing economy and often lose money in a down economy.

What a mess!!! And, I'd rather not speculate where and how this is all going to end up.....it's too scary to think about.

Not to worry...all recessions end...some sooner than others. As long as there are people trying to make money, money will be made and that's what makes economies and the market rebound.

And, I believe that the oil prices last year were being manipulated more by the commodities brokers than the OPEC members.
(which, seems to me, was another contributing factor in the economic collapse)

Yep. Things are only "worth" what they can be sold for. (regardless of what they cost to make)

By the way......I think these Off Topic threads can be of benefit for many hoseheads to be able to share ideas and frustrations about many things.....as long as we can keep the discussions civil.
I've seen some pretty heated debates over the years......ummmmm....."Vaseline" comes to mind.


Den

as long as we can keep the discussions civil.

No problems on that count here. I learned long ago not to take too serious internet discussions. Look at it as cheap entertainment.

track wrote:

as long as we can keep the discussions civil.

No problems on that count here. I learned long ago not to take too serious internet discussions. Look at it as cheap entertainment.

Yep. That's the way I look at it. Especially when I see "thedean" posting in a thread.


Den

track wrote:Good job sleepy. Don't forget ...people who couldn't afford a house got one, people who could afford a house got a bigger one, Real estate sales people made money, builders prospered, subcontractors,suppliers, congressmen that pleased their contributors, investors,those in the market...401Ks....everyone prospered...that's the nature of good times. Now everyone suffers...that's the nature of the business cycle and it's been going on for over a 100 years. The more the excesses the more the pain.

Track, I can't quite go along w/that. It wasn't just the buyers and the lenders stupidly getting or making unwise loans - I've had a little money stashed in a few mutual funds since about 1985. And since 1985 I've watched the financial industry come up w/more and more inventive ways to suck more and more out of the investors, i.e. back end loads, whereas they used to pay for the advertising and promoting of the funds from their portion of the management fees they convinced SEC to allow them to foist those fees off on the investors while at the same time increasing their fees for managing the fund. I could go on and on if I could even remember all the inventive ways financial managers managed to find more ways to shift costs to the investors whilst increasing their own "take" from the fund. And I so got a kick out of the funds wanting my "proxy vote"! They very seldom got it!

Fortunately, I never saw my house as an investment, or even as an asset, I always considered it my HOME. I was THRILLED the day we paid it off and it became OURS, free and clear except for the property taxes. And the pay off was an interesting experience in itself. We got notice that our "savings & loan" was being taken over by another "financial institution" and since we had enough savings to pay off the remaining mortgage we opted to do so. Two months after doing so we got a notice from the new "financial institution" that we were in default and they were starting repossession procedures. If you ever wanted to see a woman mad as a wet hen light into a financial institution you missed a good one!

Today is NOT a good day. The power company sent a tree cutting service down our road and they "think" they are going to cut down a red oak I've got 39 years of growth invested in down. I've been thru this battle once before. They can trim branches but they are NOT cutting that tree down w/o one h*ll of a battle on their hands! This is the same power company that let the power pole rot to the point that it came down at the base and missed my husband's brand new truck by 6 inches!! Then the idiots put in a new pole that is TALLER than the downed one! For sure if this one came down it WILL get ANY vehicle parked in front of the garage and quite possibly the garage itself! This is the same power company that every few years just tops the crimson king maples growing directly under the power line all along the frontage of the "new" township cemetery.

resisting....urge....to...talk...politics.

Johnny

johnnygoodman wrote:resisting....urge....to...talk...politics.

Johnny

Hurts, don't it?

Oh, go ahead.....it's YOUR forum.

Den

Thanks, Johnny. Two pages is enuff, huh? Okay. No more posts from me in this thread. Your tolerance is appreciated.

Eh, screw it.

1. Read the Constitution. Its an elegant, brilliant document. American's today pay it lip service but do not live by it.

2. Avoid Debt. Those holding your debt exert influence and control over you. This is true on an individual and a national level.

3. Keep Government Small. A strong dog is loyal, friendly and good for home defense. A strong lion is not.

4. Stop Pointing Fingers. Stop lobbying, stop picketing, stop telling others what they should do. Be the change you want to see in the world.

5. Live Within Your Means. If you want to compromise 1-4 for short term gain, know that you do it at the expense of your nation and probably also your family.

Johnny

The power company sent a tree cutting service down our road and they "think" they are going to cut down a red oak I've got 39 years of growth invested in down. I've been thru this battle once before. They can trim branches but they are NOT cutting that tree down w/o one h*ll of a battle on their hands!

Good luck Slinky....I will be rooting for you and your red oak.