OT: Government Caused The Current Recession

What governments did and the results:

1. Drove the price of oil through the roof therby wrecking the household budgets of most consumers.
Today's petroleum problem is not a shortage of energy resources but a surplus of government. Oil is not the problem, government control of oil is. America is not "addicted" to oil; too many oil-rich countries are addicted to socialism and nationalism, by which problem-solving entrepreneurship is hampered or criminalized. You know the worst offenders, Russia, Venezuela, Arabian peninsula – all oil is produced and controlled by governments.

The United States has a government energy problem too. Witness our folly in mandating quotas for inferior energies and blocking access to (government owned) hydrocarbon-rich areas offshore and in Alaska. Also the boutique gasolines required by many states drive up the production cost of gasoline and drive down capacity and supply.

2. Drove up the price of food therby severely impacting the household budgets of most consumers. U.S. government subsidies for inefficient ethanol converted “food acreage” to “energy acreage”. Ethanol would not be used if it had to compete without subsidies. Government also prohibits the import of cost-effective ethanol from Brazil. The massive farm bill provides payments to wealthy farmers and stifles competition thereby increasing prices of food.

3. The U.S. government caused an unnatural boom in the housing market by forcing lenders to make risky loans to consumers who could not afford the loans nor the houses.

There is plenty more; you know it better than I do.

Government is not your friend. The Constitution is. Support it.

Poster Rooster writes...Government is not your friend. The Constitution is. Support it.

Well, as someone who worked for the "government" for 30 years I'm in a position to comment on your comment...

You are essentially correct.

Generally speaking (and there are many exceptions) local government is more responsive to folks than is state, while state is more responsive than federal.



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Unemployment, recession, fuel costs, inflation, the only solution is for every American to buy a 2009 car and not drive it. Jim

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Don't you just love it when those quote Rush "I hope he fails" totally out of context and conveniently forgets the premise that if this was leading to socialism, then he hopes he fails.
Context is of little interest to the KOOL AID drinkers and bash away.

We are about to pass a very dumb bill that has to be repaid at some point with no idea of where the money comes from or how it will be repaid.

Acorn will likely get @5 BILLION even though they are under criminal investigation in 9 or more states.

The construction projects will benefit big labor, not the common folks who really need work.
Back in 1990, the Mustang ranch was siezed for tax problems and the Govt had to run it.
It failed and was closed.
Now we are trusting our entire financial future to a bunch who could not even run a whorehouse and sell liquuor.
Comforting, ain't it.

For those who love socialism, these are great times.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have" - Thomas Jefferson
Pass the KOOL AID.

Might I suggest http://forums.delphiforums.com/bully/start for all those who feel the need to express their political view points....perhaps a better place than on a sleep apnea forum. The site is free and you can discuss the pros and cons of your political ideology with others of both similar and opposite points of view.

Track,'Might I suggest you ignore those postings that do not interest you.
Nothing requires you to opine on issues that do not interest you.

Thanks for your unsolicited and gratuitous suggestions.

Quite the contrare Tomjax..politics does interest me and that's why I posted a link where you can discuss politics to your hearts content ... instead of broadcasting your political point of view on a forum that has no connection to politics...thus the title.."cpaptalk"..not "political talk". I have watched other forums where productive internet relationships are soured by political discussions and the unavoidable squabbles that follow such discussions. The tone of your reply is proof of my point. Of course I am not a moderator on this forum so continue on as you please...it's just my opinion...you are free to disagree. I promise to not let my disagreement with your politics effect how I react to you on the forum. I consider Rooster one of my cpap friends...even though I could take issue with his opening statement....so no worries.

Thank you track for making my point.

This is an eclectic group with different interests.
There are MANY topics that do not interest me that are exclusively PAP related.
I simply ignore them and you could do the same.
Maybe you should go to other PAP forume that do not tolerante any OT discussions and removes them.
Of course over at sleepnet.com . The moderator has succeeded in getting less than 3 daily postings with only the dumbest people replying.
They are nice, but everyone has left over there.

Maybe you would fit in better over there.

Rooster, you failed to allow for the Iraqi war contributing to the use of oil and building materials.

Unfortunately, we can't blame the governement for the sudden huge demand for building materials after Katrina.

And we can't blame the government for the stupidity of the architechs who designed, the contractors who built and the stupidity of the buyers for the ugly, pretentious houses being built w/more angles than a snake track. Every extra angle adds a greatly elevated cost to the cost of building a house.

Then too one must consider the stupidity of couples w/2 children insisting on buying a house large enough for a family of 16. Michigan has been severely hit by this depression and I haven't seen a nice, starter home built in our area of the state for a good 10 years. The only houses I see being built, especially in new subdivisions, are the ugly, pretentious, uber-angled monstrosities. The only attractive thing about most of them are the new siding materials, some of which are gorgeous colors and materials.

Young couples want and expect to have all the things their parents worked years for NOW, IMMEDIATELY and they are/were willing to take on horrendous debt to have them NOW, IMMEDIATELY. Most of my generation rented when they first got married, eventually bought a starter home and maybe bought a somewhat larger or smaller home attractive to their taste eventually. Some of us bought a vacation trailer, some even started w/tents and eventually worked up to buying a vacation home. The thing is we started small as we could afford it and gradually worked up to bigger and better AS WE COULD AFFORD IT. We didn't expect to have every thing our parents had w/in 1-2 or even 3 years of getting married.

Thank you for the informative post, tomjax. I was not familiar with sleepnet nor was I aware of the fact that the success of this forum is due to it's eclectic/political threads. If that's the case then please continue on and discuss politics to your heart's content, because I certainly don't want this forum to go the way of sleepnet.

track wrote:.......I consider Rooster one of my cpap friends...even though I could take issue with his opening statement....so no worries.

Hey good buddy Track,

Once this forum becomes sterile, no politics, no economics, no bashing, no sociology, no psychology, no inane humor, no fiery controversy, then you will be missing a friend - I will be out of here. Telling people to "check their leaks, be compliant always, don't trust your bricks-n-mortar DME, get a data capable machine, your mouth is leaking you need a FF mask", by itself is not nearly interesting enough to hold me here.

Regards,

Once this forum becomes sterile, no politics, no economics, no bashing, no sociology, no psychology, no inane humor, no fiery controversy, then you will be missing a friend - I will be out of here.

Funny thing is I consider this forum for the most part all of those things you say you don't like. My 15 years on the golf forum where politics, economics, bashing, humor, and controversy are the themes of each and every day, perhaps has effected my perspective.We even have a seperate folder titled "The Futility Folder" where politics is discussed. I hear so much of that stuff on that forum that I don't seek it on other forums. Perhaps that is where we differ.

Now to government being the problem...it's ONE of the culprits in a VERY LONG LIST of culprits that have put us in our current economic position. It's inaccurate to blame just the government or just the greedy or just the business community or just anyone.....it's all our faults for allowing the excesses that we have lavished in the last 15 years.

I believe the current American recession was caused by greed. Yes, there's definitely some greed in government, but the main culprits were the financial industry.

Consumer: "Wow, I can buy a huge house for no money down. Because it will be worth 20% more in a few months!"
Mortgage Broker: "Wow, I can make a few bucks by helping people get into mortgages that they may or may not actually be able to pay!"
Mortgage Lender: "Wow, I can rake in huge money in mortgage fees, then bundle my loans and sell them to Wall Street!"
Wall Street: "Wow, I can buy billions in loans and sell them to investors!"
Investors: "Wow, look at the great returns on these low risk mortgage-backed derivatives! I should use them as collateral to borrow even more money and buy even more of them!"

What could possibly go wrong? Simple, the whole house of cards was completely unsustainable.

House prices got stupidly high. And not just in a few regional markets, but across the entire nation.
As soon as the skyrocketing housing market stalled, mortgages started to fail. Not just in a few a few regional markets, but across the entire nation.
The mortgage derivative model was based on the idea that pooling mortgages from many markets would lower risk. But when a nationwide slowdown arrives, it is quickly realized that these models are wrong.
Suddenly, a lot of financial institutions see their assets plummeting and they are hanging way out there with credit.
Creditors start to realize that many of their customers, from the lowly individual with a mortgage all the way up to the bank across the street, may not pay them back.

The anarchist in me wants to let it all burn. But that will be a long and painful road.

And the only real alternative is a stimulus/investment package from the government.

Lower taxes? Well, sure...I'd like to get more money back! Will I spend it? No. I will hold onto it in case I'm laid off. And so will a lot of other Americans. So where's the economic stimulus?

The governement is the only entity capable of spending money in a way significant enough to create huge amounts of jobs and hopefully jolt us out of this downward spiral. We need to put Americans to work building the American infrastructure.

And in the future, we need government to pay closer attention to the financial industry, with more rules and regulations. Yes, more rules and regulations from the government! Because people WILL strip-mine the economy if allowed to do so. That's essentially what happened. And that's what unchecked capitalism will do. The American economy was strip-mined.

Good job sleepy. Don't forget ...people who couldn't afford a house got one, people who could afford a house got a bigger one, Real estate sales people made money, builders prospered, subcontractors,suppliers, congressmen that pleased their contributors, investors,those in the market...401Ks....everyone prospered...that's the nature of good times. Now everyone suffers...that's the nature of the business cycle and it's been going on for over a 100 years. The more the excesses the more the pain.