ResMed Adapt SV vs. Respironics Auto SV

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dsm
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Re: Does A Headache Mean Too Much CO2?

Post by dsm » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:37 pm

StillAnotherGuest wrote:
-SWS wrote:By the way, that's the real reason for wanting a proximal sensor tube: inspiratory curve-slope measurement becomes more accurate.
I am of the belief that the proximal pressure pressure line only serves to calculate system resistance during Learn Circuit and then monitor for disconnects (Low Pressure Alarm). I have attempted to employ dsm's testing methodolgy (wearing AdaptSV to bed with the proximal pressure line isolated and having my wife stay up all night with a notepad and a "torch") but the only result I got was that I woke up with a "Ray-O-Vac" logo on my forehead and a beam of light coming out of my navel.

Will use alternative testing methodologies tonite.

SAG
LOL

DSM

PS, I'd never do that, well, not unless I had 2 Vpap SVs in a tandem push-pull config with a uni-directional reversing mechanism linking the two proximals & some sort of self-adjusting pressure overflow venting sidevalve (perhaps the airvalve removed from a Bipap). Hmmmmm, yeees (need to think that thru a bit further)

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Skewed Gas Kinetics

Post by -SWS » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:21 pm

...And yet no one here has had the courage to mention the REAL "real" reason for wanting that proximal sensor line in the ASV design: a much dreaded potential for data skewing, by that well-known yet seldom-acknowledged flatulence factor.

There! I said it!
Last edited by -SWS on Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dsm » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:07 pm

-SWS wrote:And yet no one here has had the courage to mention the REAL "real" reason for wanting a proximal sensor line in the ASV design: the potential for data-skewing by the well-known yet seldom-acknowledged flatulence factor.

There! I said it!
But, If we know exactly how much air down to the ml, was pumped in AND we know exactly how much air (to the ml) was mask vented, AND we know the accurate accidental leaking volume (from data supplied as varying static-line (proximal) pressure at the mask minus known venting via accurate tables) we can deduce exactly to the ml what air went 'elsewhere'. So not just the factor but the volume. The missing measurement would be the 'quality'.

DSM
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Post by -SWS » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:11 pm

dsm wrote: But, If we know exactly how much air down to the ml, was pumped in AND we know exactly how much air (to the ml) was mask vented, AND we know the accurate accidental leaking volume (from data supplied as varying static-line (proximal) pressure at the mask minus known venting via accurate tables) we can deduce exactly to the ml what air went 'elsewhere'. So not just the factor but the volume. The missing measurement would be the 'quality'.

DSM
I must have skipped class that day.

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Post by -SWS » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:17 pm

Regarding the advantages of using a proximal sensor tube, Resmed VCS Design Team wrote:A more robust, easier to assemble, patient circuit with a single pressure sensing line that connects proximal to the mask. This improves sensitivity, minimises errors due to leaks, and allows the patient to easily detach their air circuit without disrupting the fit of their mask.
http://www.designawards.com.au/applicat ... ionID=1819

That first reason mentioned is the "ground floor" reason for the proximal sensor line in my opinion. That sensitivity specifically has to do with crucial curve slope measurement. If you're working with phase-related reference-point-driven minute volumes and a sliding F value, then rate-of-change calculations are absolutely crucial to the algorithm.

DSM is also correct about minimizing measurement and calculation errors due to leaks. Leak-introduced errors skew the heck out of that same crucial phase-related curve-slope data mentioned in the paragraph above. And thanks to DSM for originally providing us with that Australian design award link so many eons ago.


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Post by dsm » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:55 pm

Humour aside - I just had a call back from a Resmed doctor (I had placed a call a couple of days ago asking if the new Adapts had been released in Aust).

The doc said that they were in the process of being released at the moment although had not seen one of the new ones yet.

I chatted to this doc about me using a BP330 & having played with the Vpap IIIs & got into some discussion of self having lots of hypopneas & slowed breathing but no concrete evidence of centrals.

Interestingly, this doc basically said to me point blank that the Vpapt Adapt might not be the right machine for me based on my own descriptions & that staying with a Bilevel may be the best bet (I kind of know this which is why I never bought a Vpap Adapt SV & don't plan to )

The doc said the machine was best suited to people who did not have a high level of OSA but did have brief periods irregular breathing. (Rested Gal, this was pretty much exactly what you had said elsewhere). The doc also said it would not really suit someone who went into long periods of shallow breathing because the 90% target algorithm would tend to keep them there. Again, a Bilevel based machine would be a better therapy.

This doc also said that the Vpap CS2 machine which was sold as a machine for Cheynes-Stokes sufferers, and had been around for close on 2 years, was in fact the same machine as the Adapt SV (again, I think we here knew that, although there were a few doubts raised at one point).

It was an interesting discussion & this doc was very very helpful and honest. The doc & I discussed who my primary RT was & Doc said that this RT had never recommended an Adapt SV to any of his patients - I said that in my case I advised him what I wanted to use & he went along with it (and I still pay him the fat fee ).

It seems Resmed will rent out the Adapt SV for $AUD150 / month but even here in Aust they will only do so with a Dr's script. The doc said they prefer people to try it even if they initially want to buy outright. The Aust price (RRP) is $AUD 3999 (about $US3600).

DSM

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Post by -SWS » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:06 pm

Good info!

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Where's the Beef?

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:22 am

-SWS wrote:
Regarding the advantages of using a proximal sensor tube, Resmed VCS Design Team wrote:A more robust, easier to assemble, patient circuit with a single pressure sensing line that connects proximal to the mask. This improves sensitivity, minimises errors due to leaks, and allows the patient to easily detach their air circuit without disrupting the fit of their mask.
Good find there, dsm and -SWS! I'm certainly convinced now! Except for:

The ResMed VCS Design Team didn't write that fluff, Paul Hogan or the Australian Tourist Board did.

It's not more robust.

It's not easier to assemble. Than what, anyway.

A single pressure tube? Instead of what, no pressure tube?

All circuits allow the patient to disconnect the circuit from the mask.

And that still doesn't prove that the improved sensitivity and abiliity to monitor leaks is due to anything more than being able to calculate system resistance with a greater degree of accuracy.
dsm wrote: But, If we know exactly how much air down to the ml, was pumped in AND we know exactly how much air (to the ml) was mask vented, AND we know the accurate accidental leaking volume (from data supplied as varying static-line (proximal) pressure at the mask minus known venting via accurate tables) we can deduce exactly to the ml what air went 'elsewhere'. So not just the factor but the volume. The missing measurement would be the 'quality'.

DSM
I think it's time to put the Bong away.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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Post by dsm » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:29 am

Bong ?, Bong ?.

SAG for someone with a renowned dry sense of humor, I figured you would be able to see it (the humor that is) but all you seem to see is bongs (apparently with unnecessary proximals attached to the main spout)



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OIC

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:50 am

dsm wrote:Bong ?, Bong ?.

SAG for someone with a renowned dry sense of humor, I figured you would be able to see it (the humor that is) but all you seem to see is bongs (apparently with unnecessary proximals attached to the main spout)



DSM
Oh, HUMOR!! So that's what that was!

Actually, I'm more of a "There once was a man from Nantucket" kinda guy.

Could you go back and highlight the "humorous" part? I have trouble understanding those "calculation of airway leak" punch lines.

But what the hey, let me give it a shot:

"There once was a man from Nantucket."
"Whose varying static-line (proximal) pressure at the mask minus known venting via accurate tables was..."

Whoa, that's gnarly.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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Post by -SWS » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:05 am

Okay. Let's take a quick peek at why that added sensitivity offered by the proximal sensor line is important to the ASV algorithm. First let's review text from the ASV Fact Sheet (with an emphasis on the underlined parts):
Resmed Technology Fact Sheet wrote:To determine the degree of pressure support needed, the ASV
algorithm continuously calculates a target ventilation. Based on
respiratory rate and tidal volume, the target is 90% of the
patient’s recent average ventilation—that means that ventilation
can vary gradually and naturally over the course of the night.

The algorithm uses three factors to achieve synchronization
between pressure support and the patient’s breathing.
1. The patient’s own recent average respiratory rate—including
the ratio of inspiration to expiration and the length of any
expiratory pause.
2. The instantaneous direction, magnitude, and rate of change of
the patient’s airflow, which are measured at a series of set
points
during each breath.

3. A backup respiratory rate of 15 breaths per minute.

To ensure ventilatory support is synchronized to the patient’s effort,
the VPAP Adapt SV relies on factors one and two.
When a central
apnea/hypopnea occurs, support initially continues to reflect the
patient’s recent breathing pattern. However, as the apnea/hypopnea
persists, the device increasingly uses the backup respiratory rate.
From the above disclosure we know that the ASV algorithm relies heavily on measuring and comparing set points with respect to instantaneous direction, magnitude, and rate of change. Now that's what the ASV algorithm does by design. So please don't confuse that disclosure with the issue of whether SAG approves or disapproves of those algorithmic steps, or which Resmed employee SAG thinks released that information to the public.

The ASV algorithm is comparing a series of reference points that look something like this:
Image

Now here's a nice chart recently posted by SAG that shows significant degradation of a flow signal measured at the machine (flow2) compared with that same patient flow signal more accurately measured at the mask (flow1):
Image

So the left two signal humps look similar because they are comprised largely of machine effort rather than human effort. But look at those right two humps. They differ quite a bit. The top hump in particular, flow1, is comprised from significant human inspiratory effort. That top hump much better reflects human inspiratory instantaneous direction, magnitude, and rate of change that the ASV algorithm relies on for its comparative calculations.

It's human inspiratory effort that the ASV tries to accurately baseline, compare, and correct on an as-needed basis. And if you're working with a series of flow-curve reference point comparisons (minute volume) and your algorithm is design-bound to compare those points, then the top signal via a proximal sensor line is really what you want---because signal processing itself manages to retain many more of those crucial comparison reference points. Now if your algorithm endeavors to slide respiration rate (also known as patient-variable "F") back and forth, preservation of those signal processing sample points becomes even more mathematically crucial.

So let's take yet another look at that bottom-right signal hump labeled flow2. It's flat. How is the ASV algorithm going to determine its top-most three crucial reference points with that signal source? Now sample at the mask with a proximal sensor line and you get that more-suitable top-right signal hump labeled flow1. With that signal source the ASV algorithm can now more readily ascertain samples for its three top-most reference points (in order of appearance): 1) early mid-inspiration, 2)peak flow (top- and center-most reference point), as well as 3) late mid-inspiration. Some of the other reference points now sample and signal-process more accurately as well. You can see how this reference-point-driven ASV algorithm really needs that extra transient-signal sensitivity achieved via a proximal sensor line at the mask.

By contrast Respironics compares only peak flow (the top of each signal hump). And unlike Resmed, Respironics does not attempt to adjust patient-variable "F" (Respironics only endeavors to back up respiration).That means no need to compare instantaneous direction or rate of change of the flow curve itself. That also means no need for a proximal sensor line in the Respironics case. As a side note, fixed or constant impedance can be algorithmically baselined without a proximal sensor line--very satisfactorily. Narrow-diameter proximal sensor lines are always about increasing sensitivity to dynamics or transients embedded in a signal stream.

Thanks to SAG who originally provided us with the above Resmed text and two graphs.


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Post by dsm » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:12 pm

SAG

At times you are an enigma wrapped in a mystery

The humor began with your post that contained this

"I have attempted to employ dsm's testing methodology (wearing AdaptSV to bed with the proximal pressure line isolated and having my wife stay up all night with a notepad and a "torch") but the only result I got was that I woke up with a "Ray-O-Vac" logo on my forehead and a beam of light coming out of my navel. "

Then a quick series of posts followed in your humor vein but it now appears you missed that. There was the tandem push-pull vpaps then the flatulence post (SWS's theme) followed by y post about the inability to measure the quality of that lost air.

So how do we decide when you are being humorous and we can join in ?. When you suddenly declare the posts are no longer humor, you need to give us some warning so we can adjust the tone

Following your state of mind isn't always easy. Perhaps you are having a few late nights & working hard - if yes then its time for a break

DSM
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Post by dsm » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:27 pm

SWS,

That last post of yours certainly provides a good explanation - it works for me.

Thanks

DSM
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Post by StillAnotherGuest » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:12 am

OK, having recovered somewhat from my prior "experiment" by taking a couple of Nuprin and "the passing of the torch", as it were, I decided to try a somewhat more basic (albeit safer) approach.

Now, as much as all this sounds very logical:
-SWS wrote:Okay. Let's take a quick peek at why that added sensitivity offered by the proximal sensor line is important to the ASV algorithm. First let's review text from the ASV Fact Sheet (with an emphasis on the underlined parts):
Resmed Technology Fact Sheet wrote:To determine the degree of pressure support needed, the ASV
algorithm continuously calculates a target ventilation. Based on
respiratory rate and tidal volume, the target is 90% of the
patient’s recent average ventilation—that means that ventilation
can vary gradually and naturally over the course of the night.

The algorithm uses three factors to achieve synchronization
between pressure support and the patient’s breathing.
1. The patient’s own recent average respiratory rate—including
the ratio of inspiration to expiration and the length of any
expiratory pause.
2. The instantaneous direction, magnitude, and rate of change of
the patient’s airflow, which are measured at a series of set
points
during each breath.

3. A backup respiratory rate of 15 breaths per minute.

To ensure ventilatory support is synchronized to the patient’s effort,
the VPAP Adapt SV relies on factors one and two.
When a central
apnea/hypopnea occurs, support initially continues to reflect the
patient’s recent breathing pattern. However, as the apnea/hypopnea
persists, the device increasingly uses the backup respiratory rate.
From the above disclosure we know that the ASV algorithm relies heavily on measuring and comparing set points with respect to instantaneous direction, magnitude, and rate of change. Now that's what the ASV algorithm does by design. So please don't confuse that disclosure with the issue of whether SAG approves or disapproves of those algorithmic steps, or which Resmed employee SAG thinks released that information to the public.

The ASV algorithm is comparing a series of reference points that look something like this:
Image

Now here's a nice chart recently posted by SAG that shows significant degradation of a flow signal measured at the machine (flow2) compared with that same patient flow signal more accurately measured at the mask (flow1):
Image

So the left two signal humps look similar because they are comprised largely of machine effort rather than human effort. But look at those right two humps. They differ quite a bit. The top hump in particular, flow1, is comprised from significant human inspiratory effort. That top hump much better reflects human inspiratory instantaneous direction, magnitude, and rate of change that the ASV algorithm relies on for its comparative calculations.

It's human inspiratory effort that the ASV tries to accurately baseline, compare, and correct on an as-needed basis. And if you're working with a series of flow-curve reference point comparisons (minute volume) and your algorithm is design-bound to compare those points, then the top signal via a proximal sensor line is really what you want---because signal processing itself manages to retain many more of those crucial comparison reference points. Now if your algorithm endeavors to slide respiration rate (also known as patient-variable "F") back and forth, preservation of those signal processing sample points becomes even more mathematically crucial.

So let's take yet another look at that bottom-right signal hump labeled flow2. It's flat. How is the ASV algorithm going to determine its top-most three crucial reference points with that signal source? Now sample at the mask with a proximal sensor line and you get that more-suitable top-right signal hump labeled flow1. With that signal source the ASV algorithm can now more readily ascertain samples for its three top-most reference points (in order of appearance): 1) early mid-inspiration, 2)peak flow (top- and center-most reference point), as well as 3) late mid-inspiration. Some of the other reference points now sample and signal-process more accurately as well. You can see how this reference-point-driven ASV algorithm really needs that extra transient-signal sensitivity achieved via a proximal sensor line at the mask.

By contrast Respironics compares only peak flow (the top of each signal hump). And unlike Resmed, Respironics does not attempt to adjust patient-variable "F" (Respironics only endeavors to back up respiration).That means no need to compare instantaneous direction or rate of change of the flow curve itself. That also means no need for a proximal sensor line in the Respironics case. As a side note, fixed or constant impedance can be algorithmically baselined without a proximal sensor line--very satisfactorily. Narrow-diameter proximal sensor lines are always about increasing sensitivity to dynamics or transients embedded in a signal stream.

Thanks to SAG who originally provided us with the above Resmed text and two graphs.
it still remains a syllogism:

Measuring proximal airway pressure more accurately reflects patient airflow.
AdaptSV has a proximal airway pressure line.
Therefore, AdaptSV more accurately reflects patient airflow.

And the Paw actually contributes something.

But other than the patent (which speaks of generalizations), I can find no documentation that says that the proximal airway line is responsible for any of the above. Which I thought was a little odd. I figured the marketers would make this a great selling point - "The only machine that measures Paw in waveform analysis".

And if that was it's function, then it would also be on Malibu, which, it is claimed, has the same breath support as AdaptSV.

However, let us not confuse breath support (patient is still generating effort) with breath generation once the AdaptSV starts sending in controlled breaths to overcome a central apnea. At that point, from patient perspective, the system changes from a largely negative pressure to a positive pressure one, and waveform duplication becomes meaningless.

So anyway, if what -SWS implies is correct, then it would seem that jamming the Paw signal would really create some havoc now, wouldn't it?

I mean, one would think that in this scenario, at least some of the AdaptSV monitored parameters (pressure, tidal volume, minute ventilation, leak, rate, target and/or flow) would be affected, wouldn't they?

Coming up next: "Sweetheart, I set the alarm clock to wake you up every 15 minutes. Could you look over and write down all the ResControl parameters?"

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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Re: Does A Headache Mean Too Much CO2?

Post by Banned » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:53 am

StillAnotherGuest wrote: I am of the belief that the proximal pressure pressure line only serves to calculate system resistance during Learn Circuit and then monitor for disconnects (Low Pressure Alarm).
SAG
SAG must be correct, disconnecting the Paw only leads to an annoying alarm and 'Low Pressure - Check Circuit' message.

Cheers
AVAPS: PC AVAPS, EPAP 15, IPAP Min 19, IPAP Max 25, Vt 520ml, BPM 10, Ti 1.8sec, RT 2 (Garage)
BiPAP Auto SV: EPAP 9, IPAP Min 14, IPAP Max 25, BPM 10, Ti 2sec, RT 2 (Travel Machine)
VPAP Adapt SV: EEP 10.4, Min PS 4.4 (Every Day)
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