Non-Grounded Outlets

A couple things to possibly consider. 1. ain't no such thing as a "3 way ground". ( Look it up) 2. Not all 2 prong plugs/receptacles are created equal. There exists both polarized and non-polarized ones. The newer (polarized) ones have different widths to ensure that items are connected with hot and neutral on the correct sides of the circuit/flow. (Wide & narrow blades) Old 2-hole receptacles will not accept the modern, polarized type of plugs. However, my S-9's power block doesn't care about polarity as both blades on the plug are the same width. If your wiring is old school "BX" with metal sheathing, it's sometimes possible to obtain a grounded outlet if you can bond the cable to both the box and the panel. Then, jumper from box to receptacle.

Gasper62 wrote:A couple things to possibly consider. 1. ain't no such thing as a "3 way ground". ( Look it up) 2. Not all 2 prong plugs/receptacles are created equal. There exists both polarized and non-polarized ones. The newer (polarized) ones have different widths to ensure that items are connected with hot and neutral on the correct sides of the circuit/flow. (Wide & narrow blades) Old 2-hole receptacles will not accept the modern, polarized type of plugs. However, my S-9's power block doesn't care about polarity as both blades on the plug are the same width. If your wiring is old school "BX" with metal sheathing, it's sometimes possible to obtain a grounded outlet if you can bond the cable to both the box and the panel. Then, jumper from box to receptacle.

So there is no chance for the OP to get a working surge protector in the 2 holes before his CPAP equipment? which is more expensive than most peoples TVs or computers/modems these days. I suppose you would just have to be happy to have the machine working and take a tiny bit of risk of an adverse power issue.

Uncle_Bob wrote:

Gasper62 wrote:A couple things to possibly consider. 1. ain't no such thing as a "3 way ground". ( Look it up) 2. Not all 2 prong plugs/receptacles are created equal. There exists both polarized and non-polarized ones. The newer (polarized) ones have different widths to ensure that items are connected with hot and neutral on the correct sides of the circuit/flow. (Wide & narrow blades) Old 2-hole receptacles will not accept the modern, polarized type of plugs. However, my S-9's power block doesn't care about polarity as both blades on the plug are the same width. If your wiring is old school "BX" with metal sheathing, it's sometimes possible to obtain a grounded outlet if you can bond the cable to both the box and the panel. Then, jumper from box to receptacle.

So there is no chance for the OP to get a working surge protector in the 2 holes before his CPAP equipment? which is more expensive than most peoples TVs or computers/modems these days. I suppose you would just have to be happy to have the machine working and take a tiny bit of risk of an adverse power issue.

what makes you think that a working surge protector requires a ground?

perhaps you should look into how surge protectors work.

palerider wrote:
what makes you think that a working surge protector requires a ground?

perhaps you should look into how surge protectors work.

You like a wikipedia link so here is a quote from one...

A surge protector (or surge suppressor or surge diverter) is an appliance or device designed to protect electrical devices from voltage spikes. A surge protector attempts to limit the voltage supplied to an electric device by shorting to ground any unwanted voltages above a safe threshold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

Are you now claiming to be an electrical expert?

Uncle_Bob wrote:A surge protector (or surge suppressor or surge diverter) is an appliance or device designed to protect electrical devices from voltage spikes. A surge protector attempts to limit the voltage supplied to an electric device by shorting to ground any unwanted voltages above a safe threshold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

Are you now claiming to be an electrical expert?

well, I know a lot more than you, mr 100 years and no changes in British electrical code.

here's an example of a typical surge protector circuit:

note the MOVs between line and neutral, line and ground, as well as neutral to ground.

the actions of the MOV are to short when higher than desired voltages are presented, whether they're between line and ground, neutral and ground, or, LINE AND NEUTRAL. therefore, a surge protector can protect without a ground pin, as much as it would protect otherwise... and, if you know anything *AT ALL* about modern wiring standards, you'll realize that the ground and the neutral are bonded together at the power distribution panel.

palerider wrote: LINE AND NEUTRAL. therefore, a surge protector can protect without a ground pin, as much as it would protect otherwise...

With no ground you still have the one between line (hot) and neutral. But treat it as a one-shot.

Uncle_Bob wrote:My parents house in the UK was built over 100 years ago, same three prong sockets, with true on/off switches, no codes required for updates since the day the house was built.

Highly unlikely

The "IEC Type G" 3 pin socket was only standardised in the UK circa 1947 (BS 1363 standard), and the previous UK round pin standards (BS 546, BS 372 and BS 317 ) were all also introduced considerably after 1916

palerider wrote:well, I know a lot more than you,

it is universally known that you feel that way about yourself
with all that charm and charisma
who would correct all the misinformation on the internet if we didnt have you

palerider wrote: note the MOVs between line and neutral, line and ground, as well as neutral to ground.

Pay attention to everything even in your picture. A ground connection must be low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth. Not to wall receptacle safety ground. E stands for earth ground.

Furthermore, only assumed was a type of current that is irrelevant to surges. That incoming surge current can be incoming on any or all three AC wires. And outgoing to earth via some other path. That (and not a current incoming on hot; outgoing on neutral) is a surge that typically does damage.

Protectors at a wall receptacle do not claim and do not have numbers for effective protection. Its near zero joules only protect from surges that are typically made irrelevant by equal or more robust protection already inside every appliance.

Effective protection makes a low impedance (ie wire has no sharp bends) connection to earth ground. That means it is located at the service entrance to also protect everything else. Then protection in all appliances is not overwhelmed. With numbers that even claim protection from direct lightning strikes. That typically costs about £1 per protected appliance.

Your picture shows an earth ground; not wall receptacle safety ground. Best protection for a CPAP is also necessary to protect a dishwasher, refrigerator, recharging electronics, clocks, TVs, LED bulbs, furnace, RCD, central air, and the most critical appliance if a surge exists - smoke detector. A protector, if connected low impedance to an item that actually does protection (earth ground), means all appliances are protected. Safety ground in a receptacle is not the ground that does that protection even of a CPAP on a two wire receptacle.

Guest wrote:

palerider wrote:well, I know a lot more than you,

it is universally known that you feel that way about yourself
with all that charm and charisma
who would correct all the misinformation on the internet if we didnt have you

only to an idiot such as yourself.

however, there are a multitude of things that I don't comment on, because I realize the limits of my knowledge on that subject, so, unlike uncle_bob, and yourself, I just stay quiet.

not that the truth has *ever* influenced your opinion on anything.

westom wrote:

palerider wrote: note the MOVs between line and neutral, line and ground, as well as neutral to ground.

Pay attention to everything even in your picture. A ground connection must be low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth. Not to wall receptacle safety ground. E stands for earth ground.

oy vey, not you again.

westom wrote:lots of irrelevance

westom wrote:With numbers that even claim protection from direct lightning strikes.

nothing protects from a direct lightning strike.

of course, to summarize, your dead horse, that you've beaten before, "plug in surge protectors are useless" (take note, uncle_bob) and the only even somewhat effective surge protector is a large expensive one at the mains connection to the dwelling.

right?

Hyper Active poster with ADHD, not unlike Donald Trump's.

[quote="paleriderhowever, there are a multitude of things that I don't comment on, because I realize the limits of my knowledge on that subject, [/quote]
And also comment because your knowledge is so limited that you do not even know how little you really know. Foolish is to assume a surge is a voltage between two wires. Especially when destructive surges are current sources; not voltage sources as you only assumed. That means learning concepts even taught to 1st semester engineers. Your knowledge never got that far.

How surges do damage was explained in layman terms in a previous post. You did not even know simple concepts such as various modes of electricity (ie transverse, longitudinal). Rather than ask to learn, you lashed out emotionally. Posting insults does not make one knowledgeable. Simplest electrical knowledge means you knew how little you really know. Then would not post bogus recommendations for near zero joule protectors.

This is where you choose to become curious and informed. Or lash out again in an emotional tirade. Your choice.

Nothing protects from direct lightning strikes? So why do telephone COs suffer 100 surges with each storm. And your town still has uninterrupted phone service? Why do electornics atop the Empire State Buiolding suffer 23 direcxt strikes annually without damage? Why do munitions dumps routinely suffer direct strikes without explosions. One technique now used in homes was pioneered in munitions dumps. Why do you not know that? At what point do you admit propaganda has easily deceived you? Please learn well proven science, numbers, and how electricity works before posting bogus myths.

A protector too close to an appliance can even compromise existing robust internal protection. Why do I know? Because decades ago, we even traced those destructive current paths. Decades? I was probably doing this stuff before you were born.

Effective protection is distant from appliances (to increase protection) and connected low impedance (ie a meter) to earth ground. Not safety ground as advertising promotes. A ground in that wikipedia article is "earth ground".

Your picture has an 'E' on that ground. You even ignored that letter. Effective solutions connect low impedance (ie wire not inside metallic conduit) to single point 'earth' ground. That is not wall receptacle safety ground.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That best protection works for all appliances on two wire or three wire circuits. To even protect near zero joule plug-in protectors. And CPAP machines.

billbolton wrote: no codes required for updates since the day the house was built.

Bill I made a mistake with that statement. The correct time frame would have been since my parents purchased the property probably about 35 years ago. Obviously we have no idea what code changes were required or enforced prior to that.

westom wrote:

palerider wrote:however, there are a multitude of things that I don't comment on, because I realize the limits of my knowledge on that subject,

And also comment because your knowledge is so limited that you do not even know how little you really know.

here, let me fix your quotes for you.

westom wrote: Especially when destructive surges are current sources; not voltage sources as you only assumed.

please provide reliable documentation of these mythical 'current surges' you allude to.

I did find a reference to 'current surge stopper:

"Linear Technology's LTC4380 low quiescent current surge stoppers protect loads from high voltage transients. Overvoltage protection is provided by clamping the gate voltage of an external N-channel MOSFET to limit the output voltage to a safe value during overvoltage events such as load dump in automobiles." -- digikey

I can see where you're confused.

my four watt night light bulb is pulling approximately .03 amps @ 120volts, it doesn't matter whether i put that on a circuit capable of delivering 20 amps of current in a sustained manner, or 200 amps, or 2000 amps. it's only going to allow .03 amps through, ever heard of ohm's law? "current surge"

westom wrote:lots more noise

I note you didn't refute my summation of your blatherings on surge protection.