Wasting away again in ketogenic-ville

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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:32 am

leptic wrote:snip ....

I will give some background that might sound like bragging but is really meant to show how far I had fallen. In my youth (teens, early 20s) I was a nationally ranked competitive athlete, and later entered a very competitive police service including intensive physical/paramilitary training (was among top 2 in academy for physical including running, swimming, circuit). I think this experience bred a kind of arrogance that made me feel like I could eat whatever I want, based on a naive feeling of invincibility and CICO logic. By the time I hit my mid 20s I outgrew the risk/thrill/glamour seeking phase and went back to school, later achieving some success in academia (which my recent health issues have threatened to negate). Now I mostly just want to be a decent parent, spouse, and teacher. By May of this year I had so much visceral fat that tying my shoes was difficult and I was getting out of breath climbing one flight of stairs (even though I have a large frame and didn't 'look' overweight other than getting a bit jowly). I am 'only' 51, and have young kids who will in their 20s when I'm in my 60s.

The trajectory I saw for myself was really dire, and I am very glad to be finally addressing this. It was a big step to overcome my arrogance/denial and admit that I was allowing myself to get old, fat, and (perhaps most upsetting) slightly senile...

... snip
You really need to find the web interviews and presentations of Peter Attia .... you will find a very similar history to your own and perhaps even the future that you seek.

This guy is absolutely amazing. He grew up as an all star athlete and went to college to become an aerospace engineer. After completing his engineering degree he changed his mind and went to medical school and became a surgeon and specialized in surgical oncology. Then like you, he noticed that the conventional wisdom of our modern health system wasn't working for him and so he changed paths again into the field of nutrition. Now he is more focused on the science of longevity.
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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by BlackSpinner » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:36 am

I am sort of stalking you on this "way of eating" Until I was in my 50's I could eat anything and was always closer to under weight then over weight. I was was physically active (I too, cycled across Mt Royal to work at one point in my life) but not an athlete. 50 years of not considering food is a hard habit to break.

I am back to having my eating under some sort of control after the weekend from hell. I want my body back. I am also finding that my desire for food is waning now.

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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:18 am

jnk... wrote:snip ...

@DreamStalker: Dude! Go easy on us hillbillies!! Robust self-sustaining mountain farmers have traditionally been some of the most gifted day-to-day scientists of our age. Just sayin'.
Like I sez. I gots no hate towards Hill Billys. In fact my main priority for the last 2 or 3 years now has been to become a robust self-sustaining hill billy farmer scientist. I've already earned three, count'em 3 ... permaculture design certificates -- and I'm working towards "life in the soil" certification over the next couple of years (currently I'm still learn'in to use my brand spank'in new soil microscope). Unfortunately, time is scarce for me as I still has to work cuz I don't have enough savings to liberate myself from the serfdom ... errr I mean system -- but hopefully, before the whole dang thing collapses, I'll be safe in dem der hills gifted with a traditional way of life.


AN UPDATE to OT links of the day ...

Neuroscientist Shows What Fasting Does To Your Brain & Why Big Pharma Won’t Study It

Larry Santoyo Podcast on Permaculture Design

Get Your Zika War On With A Low Budget
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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by leptic » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:42 am

Thanks again DS and others - need to catch up on reading posts as it was a holiday here in QC and went kayaking with kids yesterday. Felt the benefits of all the stuff I'm doing, as for once I was not obsessing about how long until we'd get to the snack bar... (and how soon I could be horizontal). The improvements in energy level and mental state (from whatever combination of cpap and diet) have been life-changing.

I also started reading Jason Fung's book, which is very well written/researched and resonates quite strongly. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I thought I might have had keto flu during an earlier diet in which I lost a fair bit of weight. I now think (after reading the account of caloric restriction studies in Fung's book) that I was experiencing the decrease in body temperature that accompanies caloric restriction.

During this latter diet, I essentially reduced breakfast and lunch from 'hearty' to 'negligible' as well as eliminating all alcohol (which I believe led to reduced portion sizes at dinner). At work during the day, I had horrible chills which I thought of as 'flu-like'. My co-workers were commenting on my shivering (in our over-ac'ed offices) and I had a stash of sweaters and fleeces that still weren't enough - I was so uncomfortably cold and had such malaise that it was difficult to work.

The above symptoms are *eerily* similar to Fung's description of 'semi-starvation' studies done after WW2. Thus far with my LCHF diet the only thing I've felt were some similar feelings that went away after I started taking supplements (and I am not restricting calories now - just avoiding carbs). My caloric restriction chills from a couple of years ago lasted almost an entire summer. Can't remember what caused me to fall off the wagon - suspect it was just the arrival of fall (kids' school starting, university semester).

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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by DreamStalker » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:02 pm

I had an interesting experience today. I did an HIIT workout at the gym on a stationary bike ... it's been over 2 months since I last did an HIIT workout. Well first I did a warm up with a quick 15 minute circuit training on the weight machines with four upper body push and pull exercises along with some leg presses (heart rate got up to aerobic threshold in low 130's and stayed there). Then I took a few minutes to rest and allow HR back to low 100's before getting on the stationary bike for a 15 minute high intensity interval training session (3 x 30 second intervals with 4.5 minute slow aerobic recoveries). For the slow aerobic recovery portions I would try and keep HR in the 120's and for the lactic anaerobic high intensity portions I gave it all I had for 30 second intervals.

The interesting thing is that I was maxing my HR into the upper 180's to lower 190's for the high intensity intervals. Considering my age, my max HR is supposed to be at 169 ... so my heart now seems to be conditioned to what my max HR should have been about 20 years ago.

I did have a nuclear stress test done about a year and a half ago, a couple of months before my heart ablation procedure, and they managed to get my HR to 186 on the treadmill ... but I was panting and gasping for air like I was going to die and it took like 10 minutes for them to gradually get me to that point. They did say at the time that my heart was as strong as a horse.

Anyway, today's workout got my HR above the stress test 3 times in less than 30 seconds with half the panting and gasping for air. My only explanation is that I have achieved a fairly decent ketogenic adaptation. I checked 15 minutes before the workout and had ketones of 1.2 mmol/L and glucose of 86 mg/dL as I was well into 24 to 25 hour fast. When I got back home about 20 minutes after workout, I rechecked and ketones were 0.5 mmol/L and glucose was 94 mg/dL ... so my workout was mostly sourced on fat and ketone energy and I'm developing very good heart rate variability (a sign of good heart health). As I recall, Dr. Veech had stated that a heart well adapted to ketosis is like 28% more efficient than a heart adapted to glucose. My workout experience today seems to bear that out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that since going deeper into ketosis using intermittent fasting and a couple of week-long fasts during the last couple of months has made my workout routines somewhat easier on the heart. So if you're still trying the ketotic diet, keep at it and I think you will see some improved physical performance.
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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by leptic » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:45 am

DreamStalker wrote:I had an interesting experience today. I did an HIIT workout at the gym on a stationary bike ... it's been over 2 months since I last did an HIIT workout. Well first I did a warm up with a quick 15 minute circuit training on the weight machines with four upper body push and pull exercises along with some leg presses (heart rate got up to aerobic threshold in low 130's and stayed there). Then I took a few minutes to rest and allow HR back to low 100's before getting on the stationary bike for a 15 minute high intensity interval training session (3 x 30 second intervals with 4.5 minute slow aerobic recoveries). For the slow aerobic recovery portions I would try and keep HR in the 120's and for the lactic anaerobic high intensity portions I gave it all I had for 30 second intervals.

The interesting thing is that I was maxing my HR into the upper 180's to lower 190's for the high intensity intervals. Considering my age, my max HR is supposed to be at 169 ... so my heart now seems to be conditioned to what my max HR should have been about 20 years ago.

I did have a nuclear stress test done about a year and a half ago, a couple of months before my heart ablation procedure, and they managed to get my HR to 186 on the treadmill ... but I was panting and gasping for air like I was going to die and it took like 10 minutes for them to gradually get me to that point. They did say at the time that my heart was as strong as a horse.

Anyway, today's workout got my HR above the stress test 3 times in less than 30 seconds with half the panting and gasping for air. My only explanation is that I have achieved a fairly decent ketogenic adaptation. I checked 15 minutes before the workout and had ketones of 1.2 mmol/L and glucose of 86 mg/dL as I was well into 24 to 25 hour fast. When I got back home about 20 minutes after workout, I rechecked and ketones were 0.5 mmol/L and glucose was 94 mg/dL ... so my workout was mostly sourced on fat and ketone energy and I'm developing very good heart rate variability (a sign of good heart health). As I recall, Dr. Veech had stated that a heart well adapted to ketosis is like 28% more efficient than a heart adapted to glucose. My workout experience today seems to bear that out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that since going deeper into ketosis using intermittent fasting and a couple of week-long fasts during the last couple of months has made my workout routines somewhat easier on the heart. So if you're still trying the ketotic diet, keep at it and I think you will see some improved physical performance.
Thanks for sharing - I am a big fan of HIIT. It's good to know that the diet is helping with physical performance; I am experiencing this too - I think it goes beyond the weight loss (I'm now down to 210 from 220 about four weeks ago). Mental clarity also seems to be improving, probably a combination of CPAP and diet. The area where I notice this most is driving - I didn't realize it but I was starting to drive like a 90yr-old.

I've done some fairly serious endurance sports as a youth (multi-day bicycle stage races, xc-ski loppets at 50km+) and while I loved those activities, I now find the time commitment and monotony of prolonged endurance training to be intolerable. I resolved quite a while ago that any exercise I do is going to have to be some combination of 1) fun; 2) intense/short duration; 3) useful/save money (like biking to work). These days I do a daily 15 min circuit workout with 15lb dumbbells (cycling through muscle groups with 15 reps each, no rests) and do Parkour with my 9yr old son (my version is basically to run around the gym like crazy while vaulting over obstacles and climbing - I'm not as stylish as the teenagers but it's an absolute blast and a great workout). I also go out for walks with my sons and we call surprise sprints for landmarks around the neighbourhood - way more fun than 'jogging'.

Just finished Fung's book, and was quite impressed. Have been ramping up with skipping some unnecessary meals, and will definitely give some fasting a shot. I also noticed that Fung's philosophy is more flexible regarding food types - the real focus is on total elimination of refined carbs, with de-emphasis/moderation on other carb sources. This may make it easier with my wife, who has made it clear she's not prepared to stop eating bread, pasta, or whole grains. She is also extremely skeptical/concerned about the replacement of carb calories with fat calories - I've been eating Mediterranean yoghurt (in moderation) and putting cream in my coffee and I don't think she can shake the notion that this is lunacy.

Still monitoring my blood ketones - have been steadily above 1 and as high as 1.7 mmol/L.

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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by DreamStalker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:01 am

I'm more into HIT strength training. I know it's good to mix things up but I had avoided HIIT for the past year and a half due to my heart arrhythmias. I found myself in the ER for pericarditis just last December ... so I've been slow to try out the HIIT again (I did a mild to moderate session back in April). But yesterday, I did a short but full-on high intensity session and I didn't end up in the ER.

Glad the ketotic diet is working out and yes intermittent fasting may be more tolerable to your wife so it seems.
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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by leptic » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:31 pm

DreamStalker wrote:I'm more into HIT strength training. I know it's good to mix things up but I had avoided HIIT for the past year and a half due to my heart arrhythmias. I found myself in the ER for pericarditis just last December ... so I've been slow to try out the HIIT again (I did a mild to moderate session back in April). But yesterday, I did a short but full-on high intensity session and I didn't end up in the ER.

Glad the ketotic diet is working out and yes intermittent fasting may be more tolerable to your wife so it seems.
The heart disease has to be scary - not there yet. I don't seem to be able to get my pulse above 120 (I am 51 years old). I have zero doubt that I was heading for an ER at the rate I was going with my apnea, weight, and insanely stressful life. The other piece for me has been (in addition to diet and cpap) to manage stress and I have resolved to prioritize my silly job after health and happiness. Needless to say my bean-counting bosses are going to hate it... Coming out the fog has been interesting...

I suspect that we have a few things in common.

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Re: Started ketogenic diet without initial fast - updates...

Post by leptic » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:37 pm

Ketogenic (or as my wife would say 'weird') things I have done so far:

- have not eaten bread in a month

- have not eaten rice in a month

- taken my kids to McDonalds and ordered burger with no bun/ketchup

- got Thai takeaway, chucked the rice, and ate curried chicken over a bed of spinach

The thing that strikes me so far is that I feel great, but really don't feel like I am sacrificing anything. I would describe it as 'travelling in a different country where the food is different but surprisingly good'.

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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by DreamStalker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:41 pm

leptic wrote:The heart disease has to be scary - not there yet. I don't seem to be able to get my pulse above 120 (I am 51 years old). I have zero doubt that I was heading for an ER at the rate I was going with my apnea, weight, and insanely stressful life. The other piece for me has been (in addition to diet and cpap) to manage stress and I have resolved to prioritize my silly job after health and happiness. Needless to say my bean-counting bosses are going to hate it... Coming out the fog has been interesting...

I suspect that we have a few things in common.
Either you don't push yourself very hard or you may already have a heart condition if you're unable to reach 120 bpm.

The classic formula for estimating maximum heart rate is 220 – age. However, that formula was developed long ago using younger adult male subjects and somewhat underestimates the maximum heart rate for older guys like us (I'm 57.5 yo). The more correct formula is 207 – (0.7 x age) developed by a much more age inclusive study with a correlation p value of <0.001 as recently as 2007. The other way to find out your maximum heart rate is to have a heart stress test done … where you are in a hospital lab setting and you're hooked up to electrocardiogram, heart rate, oximeter, and blood pressure monitors while running on an inclined treadmill.

For HIIT, the target heart rate is 80 to 95 percent of your maximum heart rate. So for you, that would be between 137 and 163 for the high intensity part of the HIIT … that is the lactic anaerobic threshold which causes a person to become winded and short of breath during extreme physical exertion.

So if you're getting winded at 120, you may already have a heart condition with the heart function of an 85 year old. We're all a bit different of course and you may have some extra headroom if your resting heart rate is lower than average. The average resting heart rate for athletically active adults is between 40 and 60 – the resting heart rate measured when you first wake up and before getting out of bed (mine currently varies between 50 and 53 … although when the idiot cardiologist had me on the Metropolol beta-blocker a couple of years ago, my resting HR was in the mid 20's – I swear those fricken clowns were doing their best to kill me).

Anyway hopefully you meant that you rarely exert yourself into the lactic anaerobic threshold and not that you get winded before 120.
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Re: Considering ketotic diet with initial fast - advice please?

Post by leptic » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:18 pm

DreamStalker wrote:
leptic wrote:The heart disease has to be scary - not there yet. I don't seem to be able to get my pulse above 120 (I am 51 years old). I have zero doubt that I was heading for an ER at the rate I was going with my apnea, weight, and insanely stressful life. The other piece for me has been (in addition to diet and cpap) to manage stress and I have resolved to prioritize my silly job after health and happiness. Needless to say my bean-counting bosses are going to hate it... Coming out the fog has been interesting...

I suspect that we have a few things in common.
Either you don't push yourself very hard or you may already have a heart condition if you're unable to reach 120 bpm.

The classic formula for estimating maximum heart rate is 220 – age. However, that formula was developed long ago using younger adult male subjects and somewhat underestimates the maximum heart rate for older guys like us (I'm 57.5 yo). The more correct formula is 207 – (0.7 x age) developed by a much more age inclusive study with a correlation p value of <0.001 as recently as 2007. The other way to find out your maximum heart rate is to have a heart stress test done … where you are in a hospital lab setting and you're hooked up to electrocardiogram, heart rate, oximeter, and blood pressure monitors while running on an inclined treadmill.

For HIIT, the target heart rate is 80 to 95 percent of your maximum heart rate. So for you, that would be between 137 and 163 for the high intensity part of the HIIT … that is the lactic anaerobic threshold which causes a person to become winded and short of breath during extreme physical exertion.

So if you're getting winded at 120, you may already have a heart condition with the heart function of an 85 year old. We're all a bit different of course and you may have some extra headroom if your resting heart rate is lower than average. The average resting heart rate for athletically active adults is between 40 and 60 – the resting heart rate measured when you first wake up and before getting out of bed (mine currently varies between 50 and 53 … although when the idiot cardiologist had me on the Metropolol beta-blocker a couple of years ago, my resting HR was in the mid 20's – I swear those fricken clowns were doing their best to kill me).

Anyway hopefully you meant that you rarely exert yourself into the lactic anaerobic threshold and not that you get winded before 120.
I would not be astonished if I had some heart issues at 51 after the various abuses of the last few years... on the one hand I am doggedly doing some fairly strenuous activities (hilly cycling and running). On the other I have really slowed down - might be partly psychological. I do push to the extend of getting winded, but unless my monitor is off I'm not getting much above 120. I ran some studies with VO2max in elderly adults a few years ago and found that the 'laboratory' VO2max depended hugely on motivation and psychological factors. This is partly determined by the skill of the person administering the tests (it wasn't me).

I should probably ask my doc about heart tests - have had the usual blood panel, but nothing off the charts there (did a stress test a few years ago). Thanks for pointing that out...

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Re: Started ketogenic diet without initial fast - updates...

Post by DreamStalker » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:20 am

It's possible that your heart rate monitor is off or not making good electrical conductance. Try and check the calibration with a treadmill, elliptical trainer, or stationary bike at a gym and see if that's your problem.
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Re: Started ketogenic diet without initial fast - updates...

Post by leptic » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:10 pm

DreamStalker wrote:It's possible that your heart rate monitor is off or not making good electrical conductance. Try and check the calibration with a treadmill, elliptical trainer, or stationary bike at a gym and see if that's your problem.
It's a Fitbit, which uses an optical transducer. I have a feeling that there's some kind of low-pass filtering of the heart-rate recording and that transient increases are affected. Actually not sure at all of the accuracy of Fitbit, but it has some interesting features.

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Re: Started ketogenic diet without initial fast - updates...

Post by leptic » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:11 pm

Uh oh - wife is very firmly insisting that we will eat lentils tonight. Will try to moderate portion size...

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Re: Started ketogenic diet without initial fast - updates...

Post by Janknitz » Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:53 am

Hope you took some post prandial blood sugars so you could see for yourself the effect of lentils. And show your wife.
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