Wanted - Lab Rats...

[Hose_Head]

I did not measure the solution temperature, but the air temperature coming out of my hose is around 70 F,
Each run was long enough to collect about an ounce of condensate.

And how long was that? As well, I still don't understand what you are collecting. Condensate can only come from the condensation of water vapour, which cannot have any salt in it. Are you observing and collecting an actual flow of liquid water? Can you see this water travelling along your hose? Or are the water droplets too small to see?

Is the path from humidifier uphill, downhill, or something in between (e.g. what role does gravity have in this transport)?

During the experimental run, do you observe agitation of the water that's in your humidifier? I've checked my PRSystem One at 8 cm/H2O pressure and no water agitation is visible. What pressure are you using?

Humidifier level was half full.
Yes. I regularly clean my equipment and, for fun, measure how well I do. This has allowed me to come up with a cleaning method that is minimal but still effective.
My cleaning involves filling a bucket half full of water, adding a drop or two of Palmolive soap and swishing the hose and mask in it. I then rinse with tap water, followed by a rinse in distilled water. I check the final rinse to see how well I did.
The meter calibration is checked daily and it is rinsed in distilled water after every test.
Yes. The measurement involves submersing probes into the test solution. If you have enough of a test sample to wet the probes you get a reading, otherwise you get nothing.
No. The head gear did not come into contact with the condensate, nor did my fingers or other body parts.
Leak rate does not apply because I wasn't wearing the system. For the reduced air flow test the nasal pillows were closed off so the total leak amount was through the vent in the mask.

It appears that we have some confusion resulting from conflicting terminology from different cpap manufacturers. I see that you are using a Resmed and it is my understanding that Resmed refers to leak rate as the airflow that exceeds the normal discharge (through the vents) of a mask. I use a Respironics xpap where leak rate is reported as the combination of these two leaks.

To find the air flow rate in your experiment, you need to look up the leak rate for your mask at your pressure. I believe on Resmed publishes these numbers. Did you achieve a good seal on your nasal pillows?
[/quote]

[HoseCrusher]

xena, an eyeball estimate should be fine.

[HoseCrusher]

Hose Head, The first test was done with the machine running and no mask attached. In this configuration there is visible signs of movement of the water in the humidifier. I believe someone posted a link to a video of this earlier in this thread.

The second test was done with the mask attached and the nasal pillows taped close. During this test the only air flow was through the vent in the mask. I did not notice visible movement of the water in the humidifier during this test.

The machine was set in CPAP mode with a pressure of 10.6.

[HoseCrusher]

I didn't time the length of time needed to collect the condensate. I will have to go back and run the test again to determine how long it took. From the best of my recollection, the time was around a couple of hours.

The set up had the machine on a low shelf with the hose running up to the bed. There is an elevation change of about 2 feet from the machine to the bed. It is running up hill.

In order to collect the condensate, I had to get it to condense. I took a glass, cleaned it out and rinsed with distilled water. I placed this glass in an ice water bath and set the hose (or mask) to blow the air from the CPAP machine into the bottom of the glass. The cold bath made any moisture from the air stream condense inside the glass. I have a cover on my hose, so I didn't see any moisture in the hose. In general, I don't see any moisture inside my hose.

The leak rate doesn't apply. During the first test, there was no mask attached, so it was all leak. During the second test there was no flow other than that through the vent in the mask, so in this case there was no leak. I don't believe my machine provides leak information.

Silicon is difficult to get tape to stick to it. I ended up doing a complete wrap. it is possible that there wasn't a complete seal, but there was no indication of air flow holding the mask up to my fact and checking for any air flow on my lips. This is reasonably sensitive, but not a perfect indication of leaks.

You keep saying that water vapor can't have salt ions in it, but something is getting through. My best guess is that it is salt ions, because I only have distilled water and salt in the humidifier tank. Regardless of how it is getting through, it is getting through.

I think if you stop a minute and compare a glass of water sitting on the counter and compare that to a CPAP humidifier that disperses somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 ml of water a night, you should realize that there is more going on with the CPAP machine than a simple evaporation process. Another interesting test would be to determine the temperature the humidifier heats the water to, take 200 ml of water in a glass and set it on a coffee warmer to keep it warm and see how long it takes 200 ml of water to be evaporated from a glass using heat alone. This would give an idea of what part the air flow plays in all of this.

[Hose_Head]

I didn't time the length of time needed to collect the condensate. I will have to go back and run the test again to determine how long it took. From the best of my recollection, the time was around a couple of hours.

The set up had the machine on a low shelf with the hose running up to the bed. There is an elevation change of about 2 feet from the machine to the bed. It is running up hill.

So that's a good info. It clearly indicates that it's the airflow that's blowing the liquid water all the way through the hose.

In order to collect the condensate, I had to get it to condense. I took a glass, cleaned it out and rinsed with distilled water. I placed this glass in an ice water bath and set the hose (or mask) to blow the air from the CPAP machine into the bottom of the glass. The cold bath made any moisture from the air stream condense inside the glass. I have a cover on my hose, so I didn't see any moisture in the hose. In general, I don't see any moisture inside my hose.

Something doesn't make sense here. My guess is that aerosols (note that this is NOT water vapour, caused by evaporation in the humidifier) are being blown through the hose and that this is what you are collecting.

The leak rate doesn't apply. During the first test, there was no mask attached, so it was all leak. During the second test there was no flow other than that through the vent in the mask, so in this case there was no leak. I don't believe my machine provides leak information.

Here's a link to the info for a Swift Fx mask:
http://www.resmed.com/au/assets/documen ... ow_eng.pdf
Onpage 5 of that link, you can see a table that shows the flow rate through the Swift Fx mask for various pressures. At your pressure of 10.6, the flow would be approx 33 or 34 L/min. I don't know what mask you are using, so a vent rate for your mask would need to be found.

It would be better in your experiment if you could actually measure this vent rate. If you were using a respironics cpap, it would be reported in software as a "leak rate".

This airflow through the vent is an important measurement because it tells you how much airflow is needed to move the aersols from humidifier to mask. At some lower cpap pressure there likely will be a point where the airflow is no longer sufficient to move the aeorsols.

Silicon is difficult to get tape to stick to it. I ended up doing a complete wrap. it is possible that there wasn't a complete seal, but there was no indication of air flow holding the mask up to my fact and checking for any air flow on my lips. This is reasonably sensitive, but not a perfect indication of leaks.

If you didn't get a perfect seal, the leak would show up in your Resmed software, as a leak rate.
A sensitive test to find out if the seal is imperfect is to lower your mask into a bowl of water while the cpap is running. You will be able to see the bubbles escaping. You would need to distinguish between bubbles from the vent and those from an imperfectly sealed nasal pillow.

You keep saying that water vapor can't have salt ions in it, but something is getting through. My best guess is that it is salt ions, because I only have distilled water and salt in the humidifier tank. Regardless of how it is getting through, it is getting through.

Provided that your equipment was clean, and that there is no other source of contamination, then the only source of the salt that you are collecting can be that in the humidifier tank. However, it is physically impossible for water vapour to be moving the salt. I, and many others who have posted in this thread, have agreed that it's likely an aerosol that's transporting the salt. Aerosols are not water vapour; they are fine water droplets.

I think if you stop a minute and compare a glass of water sitting on the counter and compare that to a CPAP humidifier that disperses somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 ml of water a night, you should realize that there is more going on with the CPAP machine than a simple evaporation process. Another interesting test would be to determine the temperature the humidifier heats the water to, take 200 ml of water in a glass and set it on a coffee warmer to keep it warm and see how long it takes 200 ml of water to be evaporated from a glass using heat alone. This would give an idea of what part the air flow plays in all of this.

For this simple test of evaporation to be valid, it would have to test under the same conditions as found in a humidifier. It would not be fair to try to compare simple evaporation from a glass of water to evaporation from a humidifier because the conditions are significantly different for each. For example the surface area in the glass is much smaller and there is no flow of air over the water to speed up evaporation. The rate of evaporation is greatly increased when there is a flow of air over the water. Addition of heat in a humidifier will speed it up even more.

Aerosolization is the likely transport mechanism for the salt. The remaining questions are how much salt will be moved during normal operation of a cpap and whether this will provide any health benefits as you have asserted.

As others have noted, it's likely far better to use a nebulizer rather than to try to use your cpap to do this.

[HoseCrusher]

The problem with using a nebulizer is that it doesn't last all night in many cases. By all means use the neti pot, nasal spray, and nebulizer to take care if the irritation, but if that does not take care of the problem, it may be possible to obtain continuous relief by adding a little salt to the humidifier water.

[Hose_Head]

WARNING......To any new users reading this thread who might get the inclination to add things to their heated humidifier tank, I have one word of advice........DON'T!!!

The questions have come up dozens/hundreds of times over the years and the answer is always the same.
If you don't believe me, just go up to the forum Search line and put it one of the following and start reading:

"salt AND humidifier" or "Vicks AND humidifier" or whatever else you might be thinking about.

Water vapor will NOT carry anything out of the humidifier tank......including salt, Vicks, germs, bacteria and viruses.
(hint: they're too heavy for the vapor molecules)


Den

The above quote from Wulfman... expresses my opinion about this idea.

[HoseCrusher]

Once again let me point out that in the past many people have hung their hats on the theoretical processes WITHOUT making an effort to actually measure what is going on.

Also keep in mind that I am not suggesting throwing a handful of salt into the humidifier. I am looking at the possibility of soothing nasal irritation a little with a very small amount of salt.

If you don't suffer from nasal irritation, sinus issues, or congestion, I would then follow Den's advice and add nothing to the water.

In theory, distillation and evaporation work. In actual practice, they work pretty well, but not as well as you would expect from the theory. When you add turbulence, things change. When you take the time to measure what is going on, you then have an idea of what is going on.

The purpose of using xPAP therapy is to enjoy better health. I am not going to compromise my health by "clinging" to theory when I have industrial experience that tells me differently, and I can actually measure something different. If distillation worked according to theory, there would be no demand for double or triple distilled water.

There is a lot of testing that still needs to be done on this. I am going to check what happens at different pressures and bring this up to some equipment manufacturers to see if they are aware of it. Perhaps I can find some students in a teaching hospital with an interest in sleep disorders that can do some tests and write up a paper on this.

In the mean time, I think that adding a very small amount of salt to the water in the humidifier can help to soothe nasal irritation. I also think that the very small amount of salt added to the water in the humidifier will have no, or very minimal, corrosion effects on the xPAP equpment.

Of course, all bets are off if you pack up your machine with the humidifier full of water and soak the machine in it...

[Wulfman...]

Once again let me point out that in the past many people have hung their hats on the theoretical processes WITHOUT making an effort to actually measure what is going on.

Also keep in mind that I am not suggesting throwing a handful of salt into the humidifier. I am looking at the possibility of soothing nasal irritation a little with a very small amount of salt.

If you don't suffer from nasal irritation, sinus issues, or congestion, I would then follow Den's advice and add nothing to the water.

In theory, distillation and evaporation work. In actual practice, they work pretty well, but not as well as you would expect from the theory. When you add turbulence, things change. When you take the time to measure what is going on, you then have an idea of what is going on.

The purpose of using xPAP therapy is to enjoy better health. I am not going to compromise my health by "clinging" to theory when I have industrial experience that tells me differently, and I can actually measure something different. If distillation worked according to theory, there would be no demand for double or triple distilled water.

There is a lot of testing that still needs to be done on this. I am going to check what happens at different pressures and bring this up to some equipment manufacturers to see if they are aware of it. Perhaps I can find some students in a teaching hospital with an interest in sleep disorders that can do some tests and write up a paper on this.

In the mean time, I think that adding a very small amount of salt to the water in the humidifier can help to soothe nasal irritation. I also think that the very small amount of salt added to the water in the humidifier will have no, or very minimal, corrosion effects on the xPAP equpment.

Of course, all bets are off if you pack up your machine with the humidifier full of water and soak the machine in it...

What would be more likely to happen is that the machine gets pulled off the nightstand and water gets sloshed into the inside of the machine......these pages have lots and lots of those stories (as well as packing them up with water in the humidifier tank). As long as the machine is not immediately turned back on and a good effort is made to remove the excess water and thoroughly dry out the inside before using it, chances are that it won't be permanently damaged......because distilled water won't do nearly as much damage inside an XPAP machine as SALT water will. The other related issue with having salt water in your HH tank is that it MAY void the warranty. I suggest the users READ their equipment manuals because there ARE stipulations in them regarding voiding warranties.......I read through some a couple of nights ago.

As far as treating the "nasal irritation, sinus issues, or congestion" there are many other ways of dealing with those without taking the chance of having to pay for a new machine because somebody did something stupid if they've read this thread.

It seems to me like you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist or can't be solved in ways we always have.

You're entitled to do whatever you wish to YOUR machine. I just hope others don't get the impression that it's a "good idea" if they can't afford to buy their next machines out-of-pocket because they ruined the only one they have and they voided their warranty.


Den

[HoseCrusher]

Warranty concerns are a NON issue.

I have not found any manufacturer that forbids the use of tap water in the humidifier tank. They recommend distilled water to keep scale from forming on the sides of the tank, but it is OK to use tap water.

I can assure you that there are areas where the tap water has much more impurities in it than what is being explored here.

[Wulfman...]

Warranty concerns are a NON issue.

I have not found any manufacturer that forbids the use of tap water in the humidifier tank. They recommend distilled water to keep scale from forming on the sides of the tank, but it is OK to use tap water.

I can assure you that there are areas where the tap water has much more impurities in it than what is being explored here.

Oh, REALLY? Warranty isn't an issue?
I don't recall using the word "forbid". They don't (nor do I) care what YOU put in YOUR machine......but depending on the circumstances, the manufacturer may or may not choose to honor the warranty.

I've copied and pasted some excerpts from various manufacturers' manuals for everyone's reading pleasure.
(I've also included some other parts and text which may be of interest to some who haven't read them)

Again.......this is a "heads up" for the new users who may be following this thread and wondering.


Den

.

ResMed


This Limited Warranty does not cover:
a) any damage caused as a result of improper use, abuse, modification or alteration of the product;
b) repairs carried out by any service organization that has not been expressly authorized by ResMed to perform such repairs;
c) any damage or contamination due to cigarette, pipe, cigar or other smoke;
d) any damage caused by water being spilled on or into a flow generator.

ResMed shall not be responsible for any incidental or consequential damages claimed to have occurred as a result of the sale, installation or use of any ResMed product.


Filling the water tub
1. Slide the latch and lift open the flip lid.
2. Remove the water tub.
3. Fill the water tub (through the center hole) with distilled water up to the maximum water level mark (12.5 fl oz / 380 mL).
4. Return the water tub to the H5i.
5. Close the flip lid ensuring that it clicks into place.


Warnings and cautions
GENERAL WARNINGS
* Read the entire manual before using these devices.
* In the US, Federal law restricts these devices to sale by or on the order of a physician.
* Use these devices only for their intended use as described in this manual.
* Do not open the S9 or H5i. There are no user serviceable parts inside. Repairs and servicing should only be performed by an authorized ResMed service agent.
* Beware of electrocution. Do not immerse the S9 device, H5i docking station, power supply or power cord in water. Always unplug these devices before cleaning and make sure they are dry before plugging them back in.
* Do not use bleach, chlorine, alcohol, or aromatic-based solutions, moisturizing or antibacterial soaps or scented oils to clean the S9, H5i or air tubing. These solutions may cause damage and reduce the life of these products.
* Follow all precautions when using supplemental oxygen.
* Explosion hazard—do not use in the vicinity of flammable anesthetics.
* Only use the ResMed 90W or 30W power supply units.
* Make sure the power cord and plug are in good condition and the equipment is not damaged.
* Keep the power cord away from hot surfaces.
* Do not drop or insert any object into any tubing or opening.
* Do not leave long lengths of air tubing around the top of your bed. It could twist around your head or neck while you are sleeping.
S9 WARNINGS
* Advice contained in this manual should not supersede instructions given by the prescribing physician.
* Do not use your S9 if there are obvious external defects or unexplained changes in performance.
* Only ResMed air tubing and accessories should be used with these devices. A different type of air tubing or accessory may alter the pressure you actually receive, reducing the effectiveness of your treatment.
* Blocking the air tubing and/or air inlet of the S9 device while in operation could lead to overheating of the device.
* If your clinician has told you to use the SD card to update the settings on your device and the “Settings updated successfully” message does not appear, contact your clinician immediately.
* A patient should not connect a device to the module connector port unless instructed to do so by their health care provider or physician. Only ResMed products are designed to be connected to the module connector port. Connecting other devices could result in injury, or damage to the S9 device.
* These S9 devices should only be used with masks (and connectors) recommended by ResMed, or by a physician or respiratory therapist. A mask should not be used unless the device is turned on. Once the mask is fitted, ensure that the device is blowing air. The vent hole or holes associated with the mask should never be blocked.
* Explanation: Your S9 is intended to be used with special masks (or connectors) which have vent holes to allow continuous flow of air out of the mask. When the device is turned on and functioning properly, new air from the device flushes the exhaled air out through the mask vent holes. However, when the device is not operating, insufficient fresh air will be provided through the mask, and the exhaled air may be rebreathed. Rebreathing of exhaled air for longer than several minutes can, in some circumstances, lead to suffocation. This applies to most models of CPAP devices.
* In the event of power failure or machine malfunction, remove the mask.
* These S9 devices can be set to deliver pressures up to 20 cm H2O. In the unlikely event of certain fault conditions, pressures up to 30 cm H2O are possible.
* Oxygen supports combustion. Oxygen must not be used while smoking or in the presence of an open flame.
* Oxygen flow must be turned off when the S9 device is not operating, so that unused oxygen does not accumulate within the device enclosure and create a risk of fire.

S9 CAUTIONS
* Be careful not to place your device where it can be bumped or where someone is likely to trip over the power cord.
* If you put the device on the floor, make sure the area is free from dust and clear of bedding, clothes or other objects that could block the air inlet or cover the power supply unit.
* Make sure the area around the device is dry and clean.
* Do not hang the air tubing in direct sunlight as it may harden over time and eventually crack.
* Do not wash the air filter. The air filter is not washable or reusable.
* The air filter cover protects the device in the event of accidental liquid spillage. Ensure the air filter and air filter cover are fitted at all times.
* At low pressures, the flow through the exhalation ports of your mask may not clear all exhaled gas from the tubing. Some rebreathing may occur.
* The airflow for breathing produced by these devices can be as much as 11ºF (6ºC) higher than the temperature of the room. Caution should be exercised if the room temperature is warmer than 90ºF (32ºC).
H5i WARNINGS
* The H5i is designed only for use with specific ResMed devices. Do not use the H5i with any other CPAP device.
* Do not operate the H5i if it is not working properly or if any part of the CPAP device or H5i has been dropped or damaged.
* The H5i should only be used with tubing or accessories recommended by ResMed. Connection of other delivery tubes or accessories could resul t in injury, or damage to the device.
*Water must be prevented from entering your CPAP device.
* Do not overfill the water tub as water may enter the device and air tubing.
* Take care when handling your H5i as the water/water tub may be hot. Allow 10 minutes for the heater plate and any excess water to cool.
* The H5i docking station should only be connected or disconnected when the water tub is empty.
* Make sure that the water tub is empty before transporting the H5i.
* Do not operate the H5i on an aircraft as water may enter the CPAP device and air tubing during turbulence.
* Always place the H5i on a level surface below the level of the user to prevent the mask and tubing from filling with water.
* The H5i should be used with caution for users who are unable to remove the mask for themselves.
* If liquids are inadvertently spilled into or on the H5i docking station, unplug the device from the power outlet. Disconnect the docking station from the CPAP device and allow the docking station to drain and dry before re-using.
AIR TUBING WARNINGS
* If damage to the air tubing results in air leaking, stop using the air tubing.
* Do not wash the air tubing in a washing machine or dishwasher.
* Avoid covering the ClimateLine air tubing with materials such as sheets or blankets.
* The ClimateLine is designed only for use with the H5i.
* ClimateLine is not compatible with supplemental oxygen.


DeVilbiss

CAUTION– Use only distilled water that is at room temperature.
Do not add any medication or other additives to the water.


F&P

HC200

Do I have to use distilled water with my HC200?
The use of distilled water will maximize the life of the HC345 water chamber. Water from the faucet will often contain minerals which can damage the chamber, causing pitting in the base, even if the water is passed through a filter.

Can I use my HC200 in other countries?
Yes. Simply use the appropriate electrical socket adaptor and the HC200 will automatically adapt to any voltage supply. Note: When moving your HC200, ensure that the water chamber is empty. Machine failure due to water damage is not covered by warranty.

HC600

5. Fill the chamber up to the water filling line with water (Fig.2)
Never fill the chamber through the heated breathing tube connector port. When moving your device, ensure that the water chamber is empty. Machine failure due to water damage is not covered by warranty


Respironics

CAUTION: Use only distilled water in the tank.
CAUTION: When installing the tank, do not allow any water to spill into the therapy device.
CAUTION: Do not move the humidifier when the water tank has water in it.
CAUTION: The humidifier knob must remain on 0 if there is no water in the water tank or if the water tank is not installed.
CAUTION: Always empty the water tank before packing the humidifier

Limited Warranty
Respironics, Inc.® warrants that this humidifier shall be free from defects of workmanship and materials and will perform in accordance with the product specifications for a period of two (2) years from the date of sale by Respironics, Inc. to the dealer. If the product fails to perform in accordance with the product specifications, Respironics, Inc. will repair or replace, at its option, the defective material or part. Respironics, Inc. will pay customary freight charges from Respironics, Inc. to the dealer location only. This warranty does not cover damage caused by accident, misuse, abuse, alteration and other defects not related to material or workmanship. To exercise your rights under this warranty, contact your local, authorized Respironics, Inc. dealer or Respironics



.

[NotMuffy]

I use aquarium rock salt found at the pet store.

SInce it isn't salinity that's being measured, perhaps the substance in the condensate isn't "salt".

Contents of a few of the commercially-available aquaria mixes:

[NotMuffy]

New idea!

Perhaps the condensate is simply deionized water created by electrolysis (from static generated by the flow).

NM, those don't conduct very well.

[NotMuffy]

OK, now this is REALLY "it":

The second (process) is the deposition of oceanic salt carried in wind and rain. 'Cyclic salts' are ocean salts carried inland by wind and deposited by rainfall, and are mainly sodium chloride (Table 2). Rainwater contains from 6 to 50 mg/kg of salt, the concentration of salts decreasing with distance from the coast. If the concentration is 10 mg/kg, this would add 10 kg/ha of salt for each 100 mm of rainfall per year.

http://www.plantstress.com/Articles/sal ... nity_i.htm

[HoseCrusher]

Den, The manufacturer may choose not to honor their warranty if you don't follow instructions for use...

For example, did you read the part where they tell you to empty the tank after each nights use and wash it with detergent?

Not following the recommendation for daily cleaning may do far more damage than using the very small amounts of salt we are talking about here.

Warranty is a NON issue at the amounts we are using.

The real issue is does this have any effect on nasal irritation. Do you suffer from any nasal irritation? If so, what did you use to take care of it, and how well did it work?