Wanted - Lab Rats...

NotMuffy wrote:While technically, evaporation of salt, or ions of salt, cannot occur in a humidifier, clearly, Hosecrusher has demonstrated that the turbulence of a CPAP system generates some aerosolization of salt.

I disagree with your conclusion that Hosecrusher has demonstrated anything. There simply are far too many questions arising from his experimental process to allow one to draw any conclusion about what is going on. However, I would agree that IF a controlled experiment were to be run and duplicated to show that salt was passing from the humidifier to the collection water, then it may be reasonable to conclude that aerosolization is a possible mechanism of transport of salt from humidifier to mask.

To date, the experimental runs have not ruled out another source of salt (e.g. from sweat on the headgear and/or from contamination of the equipment). No controls have been provided to demonstrate that the method of measurement is even reproduceable. And it's still not clear that the rate of airflow is within the likely range of airflow through a humidifier during normal use and operation of a cpap.

As well, the conclusion that there are, or may be health benefits from the addition of salt to a humidifier remains untested.

From my point of view, of greater interest in this exercise is the possible demonstration that bacteria and/or fungi can be transported from humidifier water to the mask by aersolization of the humidifier water.

Unless I missed it, I don't recall seeing the following in previous posts......

The machine pressure being used.
The humidifier heat level.
The location/orientation of the machine, hose, mask (collection area), etc. (It's always been recommended that the machine be lower then the bed height and that the hose be orientated so that excess humidity (rainout) is able to drain back into the HH tank.)


Den

Wulfman... wrote:Unless I missed it, I don't recall seeing the following in previous posts......

The machine pressure being used.
The humidifier heat level.
The location/orientation of the machine, hose, mask (collection area), etc. (It's always been recommended that the machine be lower then the bed height and that the hose be orientated so that excess humidity (rainout) is able to drain back into the HH tank.)


Den

A few more come to mind:

solution temperature?
how long was each run?
what was the volume of the collection water?
what was the water level in the humidifier?
was there a control solution of known conductivity and were measurements reproduceable?
how was the entire system cleaned and did testing verify that it was clean?
was the meter cleaned between measurements?
was the method of measurement consistent?
was the head gear of the mask in contact with the collection water?
were fingers, etc allowed to be in contact with the collection water?
what was the leak rate of the system (reported by software) and was it in normal range?
were the results of the experiment reproduceable over several runs?
etc

why experiment with the CPAP humidifier? if you want to treat your sinusitis then do it with a nebulizer and use the proper medication in it. It takes only 10 minutes. Afterwards use the CPAP as specified.

http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patiented/ ... ulizer.pdf

Hose_Head wrote:

NotMuffy wrote:While technically, evaporation of salt, or ions of salt, cannot occur in a humidifier, clearly, Hosecrusher has demonstrated that the turbulence of a CPAP system generates some aerosolization of salt.

I disagree with your conclusion that Hosecrusher has demonstrated anything.

I disagree with your disagreement. I don't think Hosecrusher Laboratories needs to comply with you guys' laundry list of testing criteria to make the point that evaporation isn't the only process going on in a humidification chamber.

Hose_Head wrote:From my point of view, of greater interest in this exercise is the possible demonstration that bacteria and/or fungi can be transported from humidifier water to the mask by aersolization of the humidifier water.

Exactamundo. BTW, I'd be careful to caution that the safety of long-term humidification systems was documented using sealed systems.

OTOH, in practice, there are quite a few people out there with algae gardens growing in their humidifiers.

Maybe the experiment really needs to be carried out the other way ("How much crap can I load in the humidifier before I'm dead?")

BTW, I wouldn't be thinking about continuous, long term use of hypertonic saline as was tossed out earlier in the thread.

Hey HC, can you see what the value of Normal Saline is on your PWT?

NotMuffy wrote:Hey HC, can you see what the value of Normal Saline is on your PWT?

Looks to be about 18,400 uS/cm.

Hypertonic saline 3.0% about 45 S/cm.

NM.

NM

Hose Head, I guess you missed the part where I said that I ran a control by running distilled water through the system. It did reveal "some" contamination. The distilled water I am using comes in at 1.2 and the condensate from my hose comes in at around 10, but I did have one that came in a little over 12.

I don't think there is any doubt that bacteria can be passed on in the air stream inspite of the fact that there is only one paper that addresses it. I am more interested in finding a way to make the xPAP experience better for those who suffer from nasal irritation. Trace amounts of salt may help, and I don't think there is much of a down side to it.

My machine sits near the floor and there is a 2 foot rise in the hose before it rests on the bed. While sleeping, the hose lays on the bed and then is elevated where it attaches to my mask. The test was set up in a similar position.

Everyone has pointed out that it can't possibly happen because evaporation doesn't work that way. The test was simply designed to show that there seems to be more than evaporation going on inside the humidifier. I agree that more testing needs to be done to explore this further, and it would probably be better if it was done under laboratory conditions rather than my bedroom. Consider my test a "proof of concept" test. Now the specifics need to be addressed.

Den, The machine is an S8 with the 4Hi humidifier set to III. It is close to the floor and the hose was run uphill to the bed. The humidifier was filled half full.

I did not measure the solution temperature, but the air temperature coming out of my hose is around 70 F,
Each run was long enough to collect about an ounce of condensate.
Humidifier level was half full.
Yes. I regularly clean my equipment and, for fun, measure how well I do. This has allowed me to come up with a cleaning method that is minimal but still effective.
My cleaning involves filling a bucket half full of water, adding a drop or two of Palmolive soap and swishing the hose and mask in it. I then rinse with tap water, followed by a rinse in distilled water. I check the final rinse to see how well I did.
The meter calibration is checked daily and it is rinsed in distilled water after every test.
Yes. The measurement involves submersing probes into the test solution. If you have enough of a test sample to wet the probes you get a reading, otherwise you get nothing.
No. The head gear did not come into contact with the condensate, nor did my fingers or other body parts.
Leak rate does not apply because I wasn't wearing the system. For the reduced air flow test the nasal pillows were closed off so the total leak amount was through the vent in the mask.
I only ran 4 runs and the results were repeatable.

Gee whiz you ask a lot of questions. Perhaps you would consider picking up a PWT for yourself and we can work on this together.

HoseCrusher - I'm enjoying this thread and your findings.

I lived near the coast in Australia for 40+ years, with never a sniffle of sinus congestion, then moved to the U.S. midwest and BAM! instant sinus problems, allergies etc.
Visits to Florida give me immediate relief, but within hours of returning to WI the congestion returns.

I believe you can make your experiment as simple or as complex as you choose, however, if adding salt to your humidifier water gives constant sinus relief night after night, then your theory must be correct.

Salt ingestion/inhalation has never been a health issue from everything I've read and experienced. I've been on a low-sodium regime (1000mg/day) for almost 50 years and using a neti pot, saline solutions and breathing the salty air (and probably gulping plenty of sea water) has never raised my sodium levels per lab tests.

As far as how clean the humidifier water is - we have to accept that it's not a sterile environment, and as much of a germophobe as I am, believe that ingesting a few germs builds our immune systems.

I'm willing to give your theory a go, so let me know if there's anything special I should be doing.

Cheers,
xenablue

NotMuffy, my meter pegs out at 200 uS. Normal saline is off the chart. I am not familiar with hypertonic saline solutions. I will have to do some research on that.

If this produces something similar to hypertonic saline air, you seem to hint that there may be issues with it. Can you expand on those?

I have been using this solution in my humidifier for about 5 months now. I don't perceive any issues, but would like to know what may be headed my way.

xenablue, Your story is not uncommon.

This is very early on in the process. So far we found that .1 grams of salt per liter of water was not enough. .2 grams of salt per liter of water seems to work, but there is only 2 of us using this. If you want to give it a try, jump right in.

I am using aquarium salt, and the other person is using sea salt from a health food store. I don't think you should use iodized table salt, but have not looked at that at all.

HoseCrusher wrote:xenablue, Your story is not uncommon.
This is very early on in the process. So far we found that .1 grams of salt per liter of water was not enough. .2 grams of salt per liter of water seems to work, but there is only 2 of us using this. If you want to give it a try, jump right in.
I am using aquarium salt, and the other person is using sea salt from a health food store. I don't think you should use iodized table salt, but have not looked at that at all.

I have Kosher rock salt I use in the Neti pot so I'll use that, and I just happen to be at the end of a gallon bottle of distilled water, so I'll make up a solution to put in that bottle with the new unopened distilled water.

Will let you know any changes... or non-changes.

Cheers,
xena

Question - I see that in an earlier post you estimated that .2g is about 3 small chunks of aquarium salt, so I presume exactness isn't required? My scale only measures down to 1g, so I plan to weigh out a gram, divide (by eyeballing) into fifths, put two fifths into my empty bottle with 2 litres of distilled water. Will that be accurate enough for this exercise?

Very interesting 'original research' unfolding here!!

When the researchers reach that point where they want to compare with alternatives, here is a suggestion: Take a whiff of over the counter nasal saline spray (a couple of bucks worth will last for a few months at the rate of two sprays before bedtime). Many people who suffer from nasal allergies or nasal congestion seem to benefit from such even occasional nasal sprays.

Then again, as I had originally posted, which was not in jest, about placebo effects: western medical science may establish one day (btw, I am a firm believer in the western medical scientific practices compared to the likes of acupuncture, ayurveda, etc) that a majority of our very expensive medicines work by placebo effect, and so may be acupuncture and these other methods which seem to work very effectively for many.