Wanted - Lab Rats...

NotMuffy, this follows the theory. Evaporation does not support transporting salt ions, but when you add turbulence, things change and salt ions are transported.

Looking at a saline nasal spray for a moment. You use this by spraying a concentrated solution into your nose. I wonder if you would get the same benefit by "breathing" a much lower concentration over a longer period of time, like all night.

HoseCrusher wrote:

The real issue is does this have any effect on nasal irritation. Do you suffer from any nasal irritation? If so, what did you use to take care of it, and how well did it work?

Crushie, I am coming in here late and don't want to read this whole thread. In your judgement has it helped your nasal irritation or nasal congestion?

HoseCrusher wrote:Den, The manufacturer may choose not to honor their warranty if you don't follow instructions for use...

For example, did you read the part where they tell you to empty the tank after each nights use and wash it with detergent?

Not following the recommendation for daily cleaning may do far more damage than using the very small amounts of salt we are talking about here.

Warranty is a NON issue at the amounts we are using.

The real issue is does this have any effect on nasal irritation. Do you suffer from any nasal irritation? If so, what did you use to take care of it, and how well did it work?

I don't know what you mean by "nasal irritation".......but I guess my answer would be "No". My "root cause" of sleep apnea seems to be nasal CONSTRICTION (possible enlarged turbinates or deviated septum). Since the beginning of my therapy I've used "passover" humidification (water in the tank but no heat) and do nasal cleansing several times a day (especially before bedtime). This combination has allowed me to breathe very well through my nose during the night.

By the way, all of my machines are out of warranty and I have the capabilities to work on them myself......which I have done......i bought an "unused" five-year-old machine (Pro 2) off the auction site this Summer which had a broken hose connector inside (probably happened when being assembled at the factory) and a dead battery.......it is now about to finish up four months of use and has become my favorite machine.

Happy New Year


Den

So Well, I have had direct experience with myself and one other person and we have found that it does help.

Xena just started to try this and it is too early to tell.

Part of the purpose of this thread was to see if anyone else had tried it, how well it works, and if they haven't tried it if they may consider checking it out.

If you decide to try this, be advised as Den has pointed out, that you want to make sure you don't spill into the machine.

Den, What I have noticed is that there is a general discomfort associated with having air blown up your nose. Along with this comes some congestion the next morning. It is as if your body is trying to deal with the air flow, but it can't keep up.

Others have sinus issues, and some end up with a soar throat.

This has nothing to do with the cause of obstructive sleep apnea, but is all about making the xPAP experience less intrusive. Nasal cleansings help a lot, but I have found that less are needed when a very small amount of salt is added to the humidifier.

I don't know if it would help in your case because I think you may need to have the heat turned on to get the salt ions into the air stream. I will have to run a separate test on that and see what happens.

Happy New Year to you too.

HoseCrusher wrote:Looking at a saline nasal spray for a moment. You use this by spraying a concentrated solution into your nose. I wonder if you would get the same benefit by "breathing" a much lower concentration over a longer period of time, like all night.

I really don't think so. The quantity of salt (we're assuming it's salt, and it probably is) in the condensate basically measures the same as city water.

I think you have to consider the therapeutic effect you want, and consider if you want to address it with humidity or normal saline.

Then consider how much of the stuff you need to apply.

Note that normal saline is about 18,400 uSiemens, and you're directly applying that to the affected area. What we should calculate is the actual volume of salt that would (or could) end up on mucous membranes in NS vs. your condensate. I believe you will then see that the potential for therapeutic effect is miniscule. I mean, you have the same uSiemens as tap water (does calcium carbonate do the same thing as NS in the nose?)

While this discussion has been quite interesting, I'm sure some people have already dumped in the whole bag of Instant Ocean and ate the bottom out of their humidifiers.

Keep in mind what 180 uSiemens vs. 18,400 uSiemens will do to a circuit board (I'm just sayin'...)

I think the make up of tap water is a lot different than salt water.

My tap water is very soft and it measures at around 80.

Looking at the amounts of salt involved is a little bit tricky. If we assume a normal saline solution that has around 1 ml of solution used with each application, you would inhale about 9 mg of salt. The 180 uS condensate has about 9 ug of salt, but it is applied over a much longer period of time.

I guess this brings up a question if a minimum concentration of salt is needed to bring relief... or is it the total amount. Or is it a combination of both.

HoseCrusher wrote:I think the make up of tap water is a lot different than salt water.

Right. As noted:

NotMuffy wrote:...you have the same uSiemens as tap water (does calcium carbonate do the same thing as NS in the nose?)

(I did not mean "you" specifically. Average U.S. calcium content in tap water is ~50.6 mg/L.)

Whoa! Did you see Phoenix?

Sorry, inside joke.

Anyway, I'm certainly in the "just put distilled water in the humidifier" crowd.

Anything that would approach therapeutic value would most assuredly F/U the humidifier.

Meanwhile, I have to search to see if aquarium salt is GRAS and you (generic) won't end up with an algae bloom in your (generic) lungs.

This product seems to be along the same lines, but I can't find the science involved in determining the density of salt that needs to be in the air to have an effect.

http://www.salinetherapy.com/

It looks like at a pressure of 4 cm of H2O and a total air flow of 20 liters per minute, there is no problem with turbulence nebulizing the water in the humidifier.

Jumping up to a pressure of 12 and a total air flow of 37, some of the water is caught up in the turbulence and the salt is carried through the tube into your body.

In actual use, I am at a pressure of 10.6. At that pressure my mask has a leak rate of about 35 liters per minute, and then the total air flow would be the leak rate plus what I am taking in with each breath. I am not sure if breathing will contribute to the turbulence of the air flow across the humidifier.

I had an interesting discussion with my Respiratory Therapist today. And here I thought I had run across something unique. Just goes to show you that there isn't anything new, just things that require a new perspective.

At any rate, I mentioned my test results showing that some of the water in the humidifier forms and aerosol and this allows more than water vapor to enter your lungs. He told me that last week he visited a patient who was having problems with a constant cough. Several rounds of antibiotics would help, but the cough would always come back. Unknown to the RT, the man was also on CPAP and the wife asked him to check the machine out.

No problems with the machine, but the humidifier tank was growing several kinds of slime and actually had some fuzz on it.

Instructions were given on the importance of cleaning the tank after every use, and the tank was replaced. With no other action, the cough is almost completely gone.

I mentioned the addition of salt to the humidifier water and he felt that it is much harder for things to grow in salt water. As an avid neti pot user he is well versed in the benefits of salt and his personnel opinion was that the risk of damaging the machine by spilling water with a little salt in it is far outweighed by the possible benefits of keeping the humidifier clean and breathing air with small amounts of salt in it.

Since I "crushed" another hose, he will be talking to ResMed about that and I asked him to mention the salt water in the humidifier topic. He will do that, but feels that their position is clear in their instructions to clean the humidifier tank after each nights use and to fill it with distilled water.

While I may have been one of few that bothered to measure what was going on, the idea that more than water vapor comes out the end of the hose has been around for a long time. If your humidifier tank has more than just water in it, and your pressure is higher than 4, you are breathing a little of the other stuff that is in your tank. The jury is still out on the idea that salt is therapeutic to breath, and the actual amount of salt I am seeing is quite small. However, there have been some positive results and no negative results.

It will be interesting to see if ResMed has any thoughts on this.

kempo wrote:Every time I take a vacation to any ocean beach my sinuses are completely open the whole time I am there.

Now if we can just make some surf in the tank so the salt actually gets into the air (as it does at the beach)...

Well.... I've used the "hose-crusher-recommended-brew" for the past week and I THINK my sinuses feel clearer in the mornings and I don't wake up feeling like I'm not getting enough air as I was prior to starting this experiment. I can't say there's been a huge 'night and day' kinda change, but there is improvement.

I'm going to use the rest of the 2 litres of distilled water/salt mix, then I'll go back to regular plain distilled water and see if I can feel the difference.

I'll also make note of whether my sodium levels are up at my next labs LOL.

Cheers,
xena

This week I had a chance to further test this out.

Monday, I came down with the flu. My nose and eyes were running like crazy, and my back side wasn't far behind. My lungs were congested and I was coughing like crazy.

My mask is the Swift FX. Extreme congestion does not go well with the Swift FX.

Here is what I did.

I filled my humidifier tank (around 400 ml) with water and added a lot more salt than I have been using. I put 1/2 teaspoon of aquarium salt in the tank. I was very careful when installing the tank in the humidifier to make sure I didn't spill any of the salt water on the xPAP machine. At this concentration, it would have a much higher probability of doing damage.

I made sure to blow my nose just before putting my mask on, and was amazed that within a few minutes my nasal congestion was a non issue. Sleeping with the flu is not very restful. Fever makes you toss and turn, and I generally have to get up and walk around to work out some of the aches and pains. The first night I got up 26 times (according to my fitbit). Each time I got up, my nose would immediately congest back up and start running again. Each time before I put the mask back on to go back to sleep, I would blow my nose and as soon as the mask was on and the machine running, the congestion would disappear.

I went through 2 tanks of this salt water solution in 2 days. When I get this sick I go into survival mode. I get up and "do stuff" until I get exhausted, then I mask up and sleep. When I wake up from the aches and pains, I get up and repeat this process. While my wife reported that I was sleeping some 14 hours a day, I can assure you that it was extremely fractured sleep.

After the really bad 2 days, I went back to my normal humidifier solution that only had a little bit of salt in it.

First of all I was pleased with the ability of the salt ions in the air to keep my nasal congestion under control so I could use my Swift FX without problems. Next I was pleased that my congestion did not turn into sinus issues, nor did I have issues with nasal irritation, ear infection, or a sore throat. Finally, there is no change to the condition of my humidifier tank. Two days of using a higher concentration salt water had no effect on it at all.

I wish I could say that there was something in the salt water solution that would quickly get rid of the flu, but I came down with it on Monday, and here it is Friday and I am finally back to normal. This seems like a "normal" course of the flu.

Overall I am very pleased with these results. When you are sick, it is difficult to get excited about putting your mask on prior to going to sleep. With the relief from the congestion offered by the salt water in the humidifier, putting the mask on to sleep was an enjoyable part of this whole ordeal.

The major concern is that with this much salt in the water spilling it into the machine may cause some damage.

Since starting this topic I have discussed this with several medical professionals. They are surprised that the turbulent airflow over the humidifier water is enough to carry the salt ions through the hose. However, once they "allow" that it is possible, they see both positive and negative consequences. Positive in the case of adding a little salt to the water, negative in the case of using water that is contaminated. One group of physicians is interested enough to open a discussion of this in their group and determine what formal testing should be done to explore this.

All in all the flu sucks, bit time. However, keeping my congestion under control made this round a little more tolerable.