Problems in Canada with Socialized Medicine?

[roster]

In British Columbia, private clinics and surgical centers are capitalizing on patients who might otherwise pay for faster treatment in the U.S. The courts will consider their legality next month.
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Hoping to capitalize on patients who might otherwise go to the U.S. for speedier care, a network of technically illegal private clinics and surgical centers has sprung up in British Columbia, echoing a trend in Quebec. In October, the courts will be asked to decide whether the budding system should be sanctioned.

More than 70 private health providers in British Columbia now schedule simple surgeries and tests such as MRIs with waits as short as a week or two, compared with the months it takes for a public surgical suite to become available for nonessential operations.
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Reporting from Vancouver, Canada - When the pain in Christina Woodkey's legs became so severe that she could no long hike or cross-country ski, she went to her local health clinic. The Calgary, Canada, resident was told she'd need to see a hip specialist. Because the problem was not life-threatening, however, she'd have to wait about a year.

So wait she did.

In January, the hip doctor told her that a narrowing of the spine was compressing her nerves and causing the pain. She needed a back specialist. The appointment was set for Sept. 30. "When I was given that date, I asked when could I expect to have surgery," said Woodkey, 72. "They said it would be a year and a half after I had seen this doctor."

So this month, she drove across the border into Montana and got the $50,000 surgery done in two days.

"I don't have insurance. We're not allowed to have private health insurance in Canada," Woodkey said. "It's not going to be easy to come up with the money. But I'm happy to say the pain is almost all gone."
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And in the rapidly growing suburbs east of Vancouver, the Fraser Health Authority plans to close its spending gap by, among other things, holding the number of MRIs to last year's total, ending $550,000 in service programs for senior citizens and reducing elective surgeries by about 14%.
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You can read the entire article at http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 1855.story

There is more interesting stuff in the article that what I quoted.

[PeterC]

I can only speak from my experiences, but as far as critical care the Canadian system is hard to beat.

I had a heart attack and ended up in cardiac arrest in the spring. I was lucky enough to be in my doctors office with a doctor, nurse and two paramedics in attendance at the time. After I was revived and transported to hospital and spent a week recovering before release.

All the way through this process I received top notch, front of the line treatment. I got what I needed, when I needed it.

After I was released, my wife and I totaled up the bills and found that we spent almost as much on parking, tv and phone rental as we did for my actual medical treatment. Even without the supplemental insurance I had through my employer, the bill would have been substantially less than $1000.00. In fact had I not opted for a private room the cost would have been $45.00, My co-pay for the ambulance.

It's true that people requiring non-critical care can face substantial waits for some procedures. However my heart attack and arrest would have easily bankrupted my family if I lived south of the border and was unable to get/afford insurance.

The system isn't perfect, there's always room for improvement. I think that on balance our system works quite well.

Peter.

[Muse-Inc]

Thanks Peter. Rooster's and your info might help Americans understand some of the hype surrounding proposed changes and some of the challenges of a Canadian-style plan. It sounds like the Canadian plan is excellent for emergence care but not so good for non-emergency care -- this is a huge challenge that absolutely must be addressed before any serious move to a single-payer plan.

[raggedykat]

I am facing termination of my health care at the end of January 2010. I work for a small family run business and currently I pay $600.00 a month for my premium (and that is only 50% of the total premium) and we have been notified that this will be increased with the new plan starting Feb. 1. I can not afford to pay anymore and I can not get insurance on my own because of my pacemaker. I am classified by the insurance companies as un-insurable. I called the local clinic to see if I could be seen by doctors there but because I make more than $10,000.00 a year I can not be a patient of the clinic. I called the local hospital and asked about a scenerio of needing my pacemaker replaced and they told me I needed $25,000.00 up front to be admitted. My family doctor that I have now and my cardiologist will not keep me as a patient without insurance. So I am at a loss. I realize that we need to be careful about what we get but what is the alternative for me? If I go to the hospital in cardiac arrest will they actually leave me outside to die? I have 7 more years before I am eligible for medicare so I am hoping that nothing major happens before then.

[Muse-Inc]

RaggedyK, I am in similar straits, my State miniCOBRA ends December, so if I don't find another job I don't know what will happen after December. I timed my bloodwk visits so I have my next in Dec. Had a followup w doc this morning...told him that and he just shook his head; we're trying to get everything I need while I still have insurance. This situation sucks.

[Maple Leaf]

I live in British Columbia. If I require medical attention of any sort I receive it, usually immediately. Yes, there is a waiting list for some elective surgeries, but, for the most part, "all'' Canadians receive quality health care. And the real bonus is we don''t have to remortgage our house or file bankruptcy on the way out of the hospital! Thank god for Canada's health care system.

[raggedykat]

Muse - I have been trying to find another job (with benefits) also. I send out about three resumes a week but I think my age is going against me. Lets hope this country can get their act together and come up with something that is good for everyone. We are supposed to be the leaders of this world.....so what gives?

[PeterC]

No doubt, the Canadian system is biased towards treatment of critically ill patients.

Realistically, that's the way most people would want it. It might not be pleasant, but you can wait longer for a hip replacement than you can for bypass surgery.

In our system, you might not get treated as quickly as you'd like. The trade off is catastrophic illness won't cost you your house either.

I think a blend of the two systems might be workable. If you can afford private insurance for your hip and I can't, go ahead and have the surgery. I'll be that much closer to the front of the line after you do.

It's really a big picture issue. It's easy to find fault with something as complex as a nation wide, single payer health-care system. The question is, under which system are most people better off under?

PeterC

[roster]

........I had a heart attack and ended up in cardiac arrest in the spring. I was lucky enough to be in my doctors office with a doctor, nurse and two paramedics in attendance at the time. .........

OK Peter, you must tell us how that works!

I am 100% in favor of a medical plan that arranges for a doctor/nurse/two paramedics to be in attendance when you have a heart attack!

[PeterC]

........I had a heart attack and ended up in cardiac arrest in the spring. I was lucky enough to be in my doctors office with a doctor, nurse and two paramedics in attendance at the time. .........

OK Peter, you must tell us how that works!

I am 100% in favor of a medical plan that arranges for a doctor/nurse/two paramedics to be in attendance when you have a heart attack!

Thoughtful friends and good timing.

I was having some slight tightness in my chest while working out. One of my friends insisted I get it checked out and drove me to the hospital.

On the way we stopped at my doctors (we had to drive right past her office) and she confirmed an MI and called 911. Less than 5 minutes after the paramedics arrived I was in arrest.

I'm extremely lucky to be here. My symptoms were very mild, and easy to overlook. I had no clue how much trouble I was in.

Two weeks before the heart attack, I had my first sleep study. Two weeks after I got home from the hospital, they called my back and told me I had Sleep Apnea.

[PST]

It is always interesting to learn about a country's systems of health care finance and to discuss the advantages and disadvantages it offers, but it should be noted that the Canadian example is completely irrelevant to the current debate in the United States about the proposed health care reforms under consideration in Congress. None of the variations that have been proposed are single-payer plans. All of them preserve most elements of the current system of private health insurance. The main debate is whether there should be any public options at all, since no one is proposing a pure public-only plan. Anyone who wants to make comparisons should look at Switzerland, Germany, or the Netherlands. None of the proposed bills ban private, pay-as-you-go care either, so the question raised in some of Rooster's sources over whether private care is legal in British Columbia are irrelevant to the American debate.

I feel the greatest sympathy for raggedykat's and Muse-Inc's situation -- and also a sense of there but for the grace of God... It could happen to any of us. Tying the continuation of insurance coverage to continued employment by the same employer puts us one corporate bankruptcy or layoff away from a crisis. The current U.S. system has its greatest effect on all of us in the 50 to 65 age group. We're too young for Medicare but old enough that we probably have something wrong with us serious enough to be called a pre-existing condition. It's a bad time of life to be looking for a new job. Many of us have skills and experience what would make us valuable in a part-time or consulting capacity, and we may be empty-nesters happy now to work less and earn less than we did before, but we can't make that entrepreneurial jump because the one thing a big company can offer that we can't buy on our own is health insurance, at least not if we have a medical history.

[Julie]

I'd just like to say that regarding the first post in this thread, the story that was published, there are factions in the western part of Canada (BC & Alberta) that are spreading all kinds of scare stories trying to get private clinics and practices put into place and existing laws changed, so anything you see that's been written up that way should be taken with a very large grain of salt. Half the trouble in any case that the woman had was due to a bad diagnosis from the first MD she saw, and no system in the world can do much about that!

And to everyone out there... Stop Calling it Socialized Medicine!! Just because a system is in place for all a countries' citizens doesn't automatically means the country or its people are socialists!

[raggedykat]

And to everyone out there... Stop Calling it Socialized Medicine!! Just because a system is in place for all a countries' citizens doesn't automatically means the country or its people are socialists!

So true! And I am really sick of hearing the term used for everything that our current administration is trying to do.

[Snorebert]

[roster]

..Stop Calling it Socialized Medicine!! .....

No. I will not.

Every country is somewhere on a scale between socialism and capitalism. There has never been a governed country that was purely capitalistic and there has never been a country that was purely socialistic (not even any of the communist countries). The debate is about how far to one side or the other a country will be and what elements will fall in which category.

The history of governments and economies shows that the countries with the highest economic standard of living correlate well with being further toward the capitalist side.

I don't think socialism is a dirty word. Do the socialists?

I do believe we can make changes, with all heaven's good intentions, that make the overall good situation deteriorate. We should be careful to avoid that!