You can't die from Sleep Apnea

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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rested gal
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Post by rested gal » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:59 pm

ProfessorEd wrote:That death rates are highest in the wee hours of the morning when it is hardest to arouse someone, suggests this probably happens.
Interesting that most apneas hit hardest and heaviest during REM sleep. REM cycles normally get longer and longer as the sleep session progresses. We usually are in our longest REM cycle as morning approaches.

All the more reason to not deliberately remove the mask at 4 or 5 a.m. hoping to get a couple hours of so-called "real" sleep before time to get up.
ResMed S9 VPAP Auto (ASV)
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Rabid1
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Post by Rabid1 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:17 pm

rested gal wrote: All the more reason to not deliberately remove the mask at 4 or 5 a.m. hoping to get a couple hours of so-called "real" sleep before time to get up.
Why do we do that? I know this is usually the ONLY time I remove my mask, and for me, it's because I do feel like I can get some added sleep without the mask.
Wake me up when this is over...

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socknitster
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Post by socknitster » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:00 am

My sleep doctor implied that sometimes (very rarely) people don't rouse from an apnea, and die as a result. He said alcohol, sedatives, painkillers, etc., could put one into a deeper sleep that made it more difficult or impossible for the body to awaken enough to begin breathing again. Made sense to me. Aren't we supposed to let surgeons and dentists know when we have any type of general anesthesia for basically that reason? We're too far under for that alarm to prompt an arousal and breathing?

Susan
Excellent point Susan. I know others have mentioned that their ahi is higher after drinking. It is well known that drinking and sedatives can suppress the respiratory system. This is why they don't want you to take anything unusual before a sleep study--they don't want it to skew the readings in any way. They want to be as accurate as possible. I'm pretty sure the paperwork I got b4 my study speciifically requested that I not have any alcohol 24 hours b4 the study.

jen

To see my apology about how I contributed to the frakar on this thread, please click:

viewtopic.php?p=190263#190263


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rested gal
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Post by rested gal » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:48 am

Rabid1 wrote:
rested gal wrote: All the more reason to not deliberately remove the mask at 4 or 5 a.m. hoping to get a couple hours of so-called "real" sleep before time to get up.
Why do we do that? I know this is usually the ONLY time I remove my mask, and for me, it's because I do feel like I can get some added sleep without the mask.
I think people do that because they are worn out from waking up repeatedly to struggle with a leaky mask. Or they are sick and tired of waking up because of feeling that uncomfortable "thing" on their face. They want to FINALLY get their head and body comfortable enough to sleep in whatever position they like. Without feeling hard plastic gouging into their face somewhere -- bridge of nose, or nostrils, or side of cheek, or upper lip.

Being able to "do" this kind of treatment is almost all about the mask -- the mask, the mask. Then comes sorting through the mouth breathing, the hose management, the aerophagia, the pressure, the rainout, the sounds, the pillow, the data, the sleep hygiene, the other health issues, the med side effects...and more.

There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, aren't there?

But a comfortable mask is #1 priority to get "right" as soon as possible, imho.

That really isn't just sleep when we don't use the mask. It's suffocation that we're oblivious to.
ResMed S9 VPAP Auto (ASV)
Humidifier: Integrated + Climate Control hose
Mask: Aeiomed Headrest (deconstructed, with homemade straps
3M painters tape over mouth
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OwlCreekObserver
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Post by OwlCreekObserver » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:18 am

rested gal wrote: There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, aren't there?

But a comfortable mask is #1 priority to get "right" as soon as possible, imho.

That really isn't just sleep when we don't use the mask. It's suffocation that we're oblivious to.
Exactly right and eloquently stated as usual, Rested Gal!

OCO

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denise1768
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Post by denise1768 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:43 am

So funny to hear other people talk about this. I get the same feeling.. I wake up at 5am, go potty then start having the conversation in my head.. "Should I leave it off and get my last two hours nice and comfortable? Nah, I better not... MUST WEAR MASK AT ALL TIMES" hehe.
Denise

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Post by Guest » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:45 pm

That relates back to a conversation that I had with my sleep doc just a few days ago....

He ask if I was still usuing the CPAP.... he LOVED my answer.... "It's gotten where I've gotten so use to it that I can't sleep without it!!!!"


Guest sleeptech.

REm Alcohol and apnea

Post by Guest sleeptech. » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:08 pm

rested gal's REM and susanm's alcohol raise AHI for the same reason, it's a question of muscle tone rather than sedation or depth of sleep. Neither make your sleep more dangerous, just more events of apnea.

The airway is supported by muscle (and CPAP pressure for you guys).

In REM all mucle tone is lost (in theory to stop us acting out dreams and hurting ourselves). Alcohol is a good muscle relaxant; incidentally it also causes marked disturbance of sleep stages (often termed sleep architecture).
Sorry to butt in , didn't want anyone worrying unecessarily.
From some of the other comments on the thread there is of course a true argument that an obstructive apnoea won't kill you, the cardiovascular strain it causes might gve you a heart attack though. Central apneas are a different story. Over time the apnoeas you have can desensitize the emergency response, your oxygen drops further and further before your respiratory drive wakes you... this does take years to occur but can eventuate in respiratory failure. The good news is that bi-level can maintain this very effectively.

Butting out now.


ProfessorEd
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Dr Coren's view

Post by ProfessorEd » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:17 pm

I just happen to be reading "Sleep thief" by Stanley Coren (interesting book).

He appears to belive death from sleep apnea is possible lathough apparently it has only been observed directly in bulldogs (whose flat faces produce airway problems.

I note also on p 147 that some experts apparently believe thast when oxygen saturation falls below 90%, cells may die.

He also discusses the various indiret effects of apnea, such as much higher rates of driving accidents (a whole chapter).

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Rabid1
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Post by Rabid1 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:21 pm

rested gal wrote:
Rabid1 wrote:
rested gal wrote: All the more reason to not deliberately remove the mask at 4 or 5 a.m. hoping to get a couple hours of so-called "real" sleep before time to get up.
Why do we do that? I know this is usually the ONLY time I remove my mask, and for me, it's because I do feel like I can get some added sleep without the mask.
I think people do that because they are worn out from waking up repeatedly to struggle with a leaky mask. Or they are sick and tired of waking up because of feeling that uncomfortable "thing" on their face. They want to FINALLY get their head and body comfortable enough to sleep in whatever position they like. Without feeling hard plastic gouging into their face somewhere -- bridge of nose, or nostrils, or side of cheek, or upper lip.

Being able to "do" this kind of treatment is almost all about the mask -- the mask, the mask. Then comes sorting through the mouth breathing, the hose management, the aerophagia, the pressure, the rainout, the sounds, the pillow, the data, the sleep hygiene, the other health issues, the med side effects...and more.

There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, aren't there?

But a comfortable mask is #1 priority to get "right" as soon as possible, imho.

That really isn't just sleep when we don't use the mask. It's suffocation that we're oblivious to.
Once again, you've nailed it.

This morning when I woke up (about 5:00) I decided to heed your advice, and leave my mask on. Well, I had very good results! I had more energy today than normal. I think I'll try that again tomorrow


Wake me up when this is over...

split_city
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Re: Dr Coren's view

Post by split_city » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:37 pm

ProfessorEd wrote:I just happen to be reading "Sleep thief" by Stanley Coren (interesting book).

He appears to belive death from sleep apnea is possible lathough apparently it has only been observed directly in bulldogs (whose flat faces produce airway problems.

I note also on p 147 that some experts apparently believe thast when oxygen saturation falls below 90%, cells may die.

He also discusses the various indiret effects of apnea, such as much higher rates of driving accidents (a whole chapter).
Our lab has been looking at the effect of short term hypoxia on certain reflexes. One student looked at the effect of hypoxia on the cough reflex

Here is an abstract:

Acute Sustained Hypoxia Suppresses the Cough Reflex in Healthy Subjects
Danny J. Eckert, Peter G. Catcheside, Daniel L. Stadler, Rachel McDonald, Michael C. Hlavac and R. Doug McEvoy
Adelaide Institute for Sleep Health, Repatriation General Hospital, Daw Park; School of Molecular and Biomedical Science, Discipline of Physiology, University of Adelaide, Adelaide; and Department of Medicine, Flinders University, Bedford Park, South Australia, Australia

Correspondence and requests for reprints should be addressed to Danny Eckert, B.Sc. (Hons), Adelaide Institute for Sleep Health, Repatriation General Hospital, Daw Park, South Australia, Australia, 5041. E-mail: danny.eckert@rgh.sa.gov.au

Rationale: An intact cough reflex is important to protect the lung from injurious substances and to clear excess secretions. A blunted cough reflex may be harmful or even fatal in respiratory disease. Hypoxia is common in respiratory disorders and has been shown to have depressant effects on respiratory sensation and ventilation. We hypothesized that it might also suppress the cough reflex.

Objectives: To determine if acute hypoxia increases cough threshold and cough tachyphylaxis to inhaled capsaicin.

Methods: On two occasions, 16 healthy subjects inhaled a saline control followed by doubling doses of capsaicin aerosol (range, 0.49–500 µM) every minute for 15 s during controlled ventilation ( 190% baseline) with isocapnic hypoxia (SpO2, 80%) or isocapnic normoxia, in random order. When a subject responded to a dose with five or more coughs, the next doubling dose of capsaicin was administered continuously for 60 s to assess acute tachyphylaxis.

Main Results: The capsaicin concentration required to elicit five coughs was significantly higher during isocapnic hypoxia compared with normoxia (29.6 ± 16.0 vs. 23.4 ± 15.6 µM, p = 0.01). During continuous capsaicin inhalation, significantly more coughs were evoked in the first 10 s compared with the last (2.3 ± 0.3 vs. 1.3 ± 0.3, p < 0.01), indicating cough tachyphylaxis. However, the decrease was the same during hypoxia and normoxia (–1.3 ± 0.4 vs. –0.9 ± 0.6, p = 0.54).

Conclusions: Acute isocapnic hypoxia suppresses cough reflex sensitivity to inhaled capsaicin. This finding raises the possibility that the cough reflex may be impaired during acute exacerbations of hypoxic-respiratory disorders.


Another study:

The effects of hypoxia on load compensation during sustained incremental resistive loading in patients with obstructive sleep apnea
Michael C. Hlavac,1,2 Peter G. Catcheside,1,3 Amanda Adams,1 Danny J. Eckert,1,3 and R. Doug McEvoy1,2,3
1Adelaide Institute for Sleep Health, Repatriation General Hospital, Daw Park, South Australia; 2Department of Medicine, Flinders University, Bedford Park, South Australia; and 3School of Molecular and Biomedical Science, Discipline of Physiology, University of Adelaide, South Australia, Australia

Submitted 22 December 2005 ; accepted in final form 26 March 2007


Inspiratory load compensation is impaired in patients with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), a condition characterized by hypoxia during sleep. We sought to compare the effects of sustained hypoxia on ventilation during inspiratory resistive loading in OSA patients and matched controls. Ten OSA patients and 10 controls received 30 min of isocapnic hypoxia (arterial oxygen saturation 80%) and normoxia in random order. Following the gas period, subjects were administered six incremental 2-min inspiratory resistive loads while breathing room air. Ventilation was measured throughout the loading period. In both patients and controls, there was a significant increase in inspiratory time with increasing load (P = 0.006 and 0.003, respectively), accompanied by a significant fall in peak inspiratory flow (P = 0.006 and P < 0.001, respectively). The result was a significant fall in minute ventilation in both groups with increasing load (P = 0.003 and P < 0.001, respectively). There was no difference between the two groups for these parameters. The only difference between the two groups was a transient increase in tidal volume in controls (P = 0.02) but not in OSA patients (P = 0.57) during loading. Following hypoxia, there was a significant increase in minute ventilation during loading in both groups (P < 0.001). These results suggest that ventilation during incremental resistive loading is preserved in OSA patients and that it appears relatively impervious to the effects of hypoxia.

So there are studies out there which is looking at the effect of hypoxia. I have no doubt there are other studies which look at the effect of hypoxia on cell death in mice.

The question is, does hypoxia cause irreversible damage to cells in OSA patients? If so, how does this effect cognitive function?

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Post by alsarnac » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:32 am

rested gal wrote:
Rabid1 wrote:
rested gal wrote: All the more reason to not deliberately remove the mask at 4 or 5 a.m. hoping to get a couple hours of so-called "real" sleep before time to get up.
Why do we do that? I know this is usually the ONLY time I remove my mask, and for me, it's because I do feel like I can get some added sleep without the mask.
I think people do that because they are worn out from waking up repeatedly to struggle with a leaky mask. Or they are sick and tired of waking up because of feeling that uncomfortable "thing" on their face. They want to FINALLY get their head and body comfortable enough to sleep in whatever position they like. Without feeling hard plastic gouging into their face somewhere -- bridge of nose, or nostrils, or side of cheek, or upper lip.

Being able to "do" this kind of treatment is almost all about the mask -- the mask, the mask. Then comes sorting through the mouth breathing, the hose management, the aerophagia, the pressure, the rainout, the sounds, the pillow, the data, the sleep hygiene, the other health issues, the med side effects...and more.

There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, aren't there?

But a comfortable mask is #1 priority to get "right" as soon as possible, imho.

That really isn't just sleep when we don't use the mask. It's suffocation that we're oblivious to.
I'm currently using Respironics Comfort Classic Mask and if I wake up between 3 & 4 a.m. due to feeling of discomfort, I switch to my other interface the PB new version sleep gear. You may give it a try folks, and see how it works on you . . .


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socknitster
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Post by socknitster » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:11 am

Those are fascinating reports, Split_City. I love reading abstracts. It does strike me in an odd way how there seems to be an element of torture in all of these apnea studies--tight belts, inhaling capsaicin (read: hot pepper juice!). Now, I'm guessing that is just an emotional rxn and that a real effort is made to minimize discomfort for the test subject. I.e. I have no way of knowing the true level of discomfort due to the dilution factor of the capsaicin--I'm sure it wasn't at a level of mace!

However, that said, the results of the capsaicin study are IMPORTANT to know because in my opinion there is a relation there to GERD. Many apnea patients relate a concommittal occurence of lung issues (just my observataion, anecdotal only), which I believe may be caused by inhalation of stomach acid during apnea events. Combined with a lower cough reflex and MY GOODNESS you have a disasterous situation where tons of damage may occurr.

Just curious, S-C how much anatomy did you have to take in your Ph.D. program? I probably would have went to medical school except at my very first human dissection I just COULD NOT get over the fact that it was a person lying there on the table (this was undergrad summer internship for science students). The first thing I saw when I unzipped the black bag was my subject had on toe-nail polish and for some reason I just couldn't let go of the concept that it was a person and was unable to make even one cut.

I had to walk out in tears and I was in a little trouble and definitely the peer pressure was painful.

Guess I'm just an emotional gal. Not as afraid of death now as I have found hope in religion but still don't want to cut people up.

However, I'm very interested in sleep research for obvious reasons and I've been kicking around the idea of going back to school when all my little ones go to school themselves. Never to old for that and I need a new career and it would be nice to make a difference for the better.

Comments?

Jen

split_city
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Post by split_city » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:09 am

Doh, I thought I posted a response to your latest post Jen. Don't know where it went! I'm off to bed but will answer it the next time I'm on

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bookwrm63
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Post by bookwrm63 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:39 am

Hi all,

I haven't posted in awhile (crazy life lately) but my brother in law suffered a major stoke last Friday. We have been at the hospital 2x a day since then and guess what I noticed while watching him sleep? The man stops breathing constantly! On Sat. afternoon, I said to to ICU nurse, "Has anyone noticed that he has Sleep Apnea?" She said, "Yes, we noticed it since his first night. Isn't he being treated for it?" I asked his wife because it has never really come up before and she said, "Oh, is that what it is? I just know his snoring makes me crazy and I'm always elbowing him to take a breath"
Every time I'm in his room and he stops breathing, I just shake his shoulder or call his name so he takes a breath. They can't treat it with Cpap because of the brain trauma but they did tell his wife that this will have to be addressed down the road when his body can handle it. When I pointed out the correlation between SA and strokes, they were quick to point out that it was a cholesterol clot that caused the stroke. Aren't all these things related in some way, shape or form anyway? Geez! The good thing is is that my husband has said he would probably now go for a sleep study himself for his snoring.
Sorry for the long post, it just seemed somewhat relevant to the topic.

Mary



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