Opponents of universal health care in the US

[Autopapdude]

Why don't you at least be HONEST? Y'all don't care about the ethical and governmental issues at hand in terms of implementing universal health care (incidentally, a RIGHT for people in every representative republic in the WORLD, except for the USA). What you care about is the potential tax consequences for YOURSELF, and the possibility that you might be inconvenienced by a new system that you don't understand. I've read so much sanctimonious crap with regard to the health care debate that waxes philosophical and moral. Frankly, I feel that opponents of the program to implement health care as one of the inalienable rights are absorbed with the FINANCIAL consequences to themselves. BE HONEST, and stop hiding behind the "ism" of the day--"Socialism, Marxism, erosion of Capitalism, etc, etc." That isn't what really concerns you folks--you don't want to pay any more taxes--in fact, you want another tax cut. Be real with your selves, and "to thine own self be true."

[Julie]

You're brave! And probably right on track.

[desert rider]

[tattooyu]

[KengEsq]

withdrawn as a topic not related to forum

[Autopapdude]

I don't rmember that "right" in the U.S. Constitution. Must have missed it along with the apparent right to be provided with a free cell phone with free calling and free voice mail. I need to go back and read the Constitution again to see what other "rights" I've missed (e.g. the rights to a car, HD big-screen TV, a job, a home, etc.) Maybe we need to re-think America. Is it the land of freedom and opportunity or the land of big government and guarantees?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident,--that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thomas Jefferson, from the Declaration of Independence. How can the right to be universally healthy NOT be under the egis of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

I will get back to the statement I made. You don't want higher taxes, do you? You don't want to pay for anything for anyone else but yourself? BE HONEST~

[tattooyu]

It should be a right for every human to be as healthy as possible and get adequate medical care, but that's idealistic. It's something to strive for anyway. At the very least, it should be a privilege that everyone be able to afford at least some type of health care, and then buy up if they want to expand their coverage. We are supposedly the greatest country on the planet. Sometimes we don't act like it though. Don't get me wrong, I feel very lucky to live here, but improvements can and should be made.

Personally, I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes for better health care, as long as that care is going to the right place... which brings me to my next touchy subject: immigration.

I'm moderately liberal with regards to social programs, but I am fairly conservative when it comes to giving away the same privileges to illegal immigrants that we do to citizens or legal would-be citizens. If someone is dying or gravely ill, they should be cared for no matter what. However, using emergency rooms as clinics for the sniffles or the cold, etc., really just busts my hump! I realize that's a touchy subject, but that's how I feel. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject -- far from it -- and my comments are largely based on opinion. I realize that.

By the way, I don't know if it would work, but I find the Fair Tax plan to be very interesting.

[Autopapdude]

Simple solution was offered. Raise the maximum tax bracket for those making over 5 MILLION dollars from 38.7% to 50%. Anyone weeping for those who make over 5 million a year? This would fund the entire cost of health care. However, I honestly think it is a right, and COST isn't the main issue. We have an obligation to treat those who are less fortunate who are Americans. If it takes re-structuring of the tax system, ending two foolish wars we cannot win, or whatever the heck, DO IT. It isn't a cash issue, it is a moral imperative.

[desert rider]

I will get back to the statement I made. You don't want higher taxes, do you? You don't want to pay for anything for anyone else but yourself? BE HONEST~

Honestly? That's pretty close to the truth. But you say it like it's such a bad thing.

It's not that I don't want to pay anything for anyone but myself. I just don't want to pay any more for anything else than I already to, because what I'm paying now is already being wasted. It's not a lack of compassion for my fellow man. It's a lack of trust in my government.

I should point out that it's a non-partisan lack of trust (not just an Obama thing or a Bush thing). Both sides have failed.

And I guess "lack of trust" is too kind: "sheer contempt" is more accurate. I hold them all in contempt, both the ones I voted for and the ones I voted against.

So no, I'm 100% opposed to paying any more than I already do. If they think they can fund this new plan with cost cuts, then let's start off with the cost cuts and then decide where (or "whether") to spend those savings.

What if my kids told me "if you buy me a {fill-in-the-blank}, I'll get good grades"? I have a better idea, show me the grades first and then we'll talk.

So congress needs to do the hard work first and start with the cost cuts (which I don't believe they know how to do). In the mean time, let's figure out how to implement tort reform so that doctors are still accountable but don't have to live in fear of insane jury awards. Then our doctors will practice medicine more intelligently instead of more defensively.

[2ndGenCPAPgal]

I don't rmember that "right" in the U.S. Constitution. Must have missed it along with the apparent right to be provided with a free cell phone with free calling and free voice mail. I need to go back and read the Constitution again to see what other "rights" I've missed (e.g. the rights to a car, HD big-screen TV, a job, a home, etc.) Maybe we need to re-think America. Is it the land of freedom and opportunity or the land of big government and guarantees?

No where in Autopapdude's post does he say that healthcare is currently a constitutional right. What he does say is (emphasis mine)

(incidentally, a RIGHT for people in every representative republic in the WORLD, except for the USA)

and

to implement health care as one of the inalienable rights

Frankly, I find your comparison of healthcare (something one could argue is intrinsicly necessary for both the LIFE and happiness part of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness") with inanimate objects offensive and totally irrelevant.

I am definitely not a fan of big government myself, but this is one of those things that I believe really needs to be done because the potential good (better health for all) outweigh the potential bad (higher taxes, etc). No system will ever be perfect, but the current system that places the greed of insurance company executives/shareholders over the good of another human being's health and life has got to change.

Edited to add re: desert rider: I need to do the research sometime while I'm not at work, but I remember hearing something about how certain cost savings can't be factored in to the analysis of the changes because they can't be quantified (i.e. the potential savings for covering a broader pool of risk). Does anyone know anything more about this or how they analyze the costs/savings? (I totally agree on the tort reform to decrease defensive medicine.)

[KengEsq]

withdrawn as a topic not related to forum

[2ndGenCPAPgal]

Why would anyone want to pay higher taxes for big government so it can tell me what car I must drive, where I must send my children to school, how to raise my children, when I can see a doctor, what doctor I must see, etc., etc., etc.

Whoa, we're talking healthcare. How exactly does anything but the doctor pertain to this conversation or is even a realistic possibility?

Do you truly believe that the government will tell you when you can see a doctor or what doctor to see any more than the current profit based system does? Sounds a lot like the "managed" healthcare we're currently burdened with to me....

[Autopapdude]

Why would anyone want to pay higher taxes for big government so it can tell me what car I must drive, where I must send my children to school

MONEY. Disregard the rest of the post. His excuse boils down to MONEY. He doesn't really care a whit about "big government" and what it does or doesn't do. He just doesn't want to pay for it. First sentence says it all.

HE withdrew his rant as "not being appropriate for the forum." It is what the forum is all about. Good health care for OSA. Is national health care beneficial for OSA? Of course it is. There are tons of threads on national health care.

If it were "FREE," he'd grab it and run. The issue it MONEY, as I said.

Honestly? That's pretty close to the truth. But you say it like it's such a bad thing.

Bad thing? It is immoral. You want yours, and don't want to pay for someone else's. MONEY, as I said. MONEY! Not ideals, but MONEY.

[KengEsq]

[desert rider]

Bad thing? It is immoral. You want yours, and don't want to pay for someone else's. MONEY, as I said. MONEY! Not ideals, but MONEY.

Interesting viewpoint, but doesn't jive with the values I was raised with. If we all take more than we give, then there won't be anything left to take. That doesn't do any of us any good, it just pulls everyone down. Look around you and see how many capable souls we're supporting. How moral are they?

In a bigger sense (not just health care), we're sliding down a destructive path that's going to be very hard to correct. So many follies. Without a serious course correction we're going to fall the same way Rome did.

It's time to stop blaming everyone else. It's time to stop waiting for our government to save us. It's time to stop being victims and blaming the "rich".