Problems in Canada with Socialized Medicine?

[dels]

I think the best thing to do is not respond to any thing LINC has to write, I think he thrives on pushing peoples buttons much like a bored child.

[Terminator]

I think the best thing to do is not respond to any thing LINC has to write, I think he thrives on pushing peoples buttons much like a bored child.

I don't think that's overly fair to him. Linc is a traditional conservative who believes in success through hard work and self starting. I can fully understand that as I believe in that myself. Having said that, I do believe in the essence of our health care system here in Canada. I pay significant amounts of tax and a lot of that does go to healthcare. There was a time when I didn't make as much money as I do now. In that time, I had a severe bout with pneumonia (three days in hospital) and previous to that I had two hernias surgically repaired. My immediate cost was: zero dollars. Without that public healthcare paid for by my tax dollars, I would have been bankrupt. A previous poster said that the problem with socialism is that you sooner or later run out of other peoples money to spend. I like to believe that paying taxes for public services is part of the contract that free citizens have with an nominally democratic government. Anyone who thinks that we can do without that contract need only look at Somalia where there is no government. Yes, we can get into semantics over the definition of 'socialism', but that will never solve the problems faced by people who have no reliable healthcare and no court of last resort when they get really ill. Where a system like ours gets into trouble is when programs are set up to 'help' people pay for goods and services, are minimally audited, and companies take advantage of the lack of oversight to line their pockets and DON'T provide the required service to the people supposedly being assisted. A system like ours gets into deeper trouble when true socialists like the loony lefty Dippers get control of the public purse and start spending like there was no tomorrow. Unfortunately that's all a part of a much larger problem caused by people no longer demanding that governments be accountable to them, the voters. That rarely gets put back into order without bloodshed:-(
Hey, Linc! Can't I send you a few Dippers? After all, somewhere there must be a village missing an idiot!

T

[dels]

For the record, I am also very hard working and have attained what I have today through hard work, and traditional conservatives are not the only hard working people in the world. As for FOX news, when 911 first occured, it was their staff who first started the rumors that the terrorists came in through Canada , and they surely never stopped any "Guest" from speaking in interviews by saying "actually they came in via the USA". not only that but there is pervassive coverage that Canada was a place to be feared because we let terrorsits in all the time...apparently. Those that followed that LINC quoted are those that followed many years after the origional statements that first appeared on FOX. Media on both sides have a responsibility to challenge peole who make blatently false statements.

[Terminator]

... As for FOX news, when 911 first occured, it was their staff who first started the rumors that the terrorists came in through Canada , and they surely never stopped any "Guest" from speaking in interviews by saying "actually they came in via the USA". not only that but there is pervassive coverage that Canada was a place to be feared because we let terrorsits in all the time...apparently. Those that followed that LINC quoted are those that followed many years after the origional statements that first appeared on FOX. Media on both sides have a responsibility to challenge peole who make blatently false statements.

That's a matter for another thread; let's get this one back on topic....

T

[dels]

It's actually not another topic, it was first brought up as an example on how the media and certain political leanings say things that are simply exadurated or untrue as a scare tactic. Right now the flavor of the month bashing Canada over health care and on the other side people using our system to say Americans should do things as we do. I think most people would prefere to be left out of the Americans debate .

[PST]

It's actually not another topic, it was first brought up as an example on how the media and certain political leanings say things that are simply exadurated or untrue as a scare tactic. Right now the flavor of the month bashing Canada over health care and on the other side people using our system to say Americans should do things as we do. I think most people would prefere to be left out of the Americans debate .

And the nutty thing about that is that the current U.S. proposals don't resemble Canada's system in the slightest, so there really isn't much point in holding Canada up as a good example or a bad one. (By the way, thank you Canadian friends for putting up with this nonsense so patiently.) As of today's news, it looks like there won't even be a public option. We will end up (1) keeping private insurance, (2) imposing rules that make it easy to move from plan to plan without exclusion for pre-existing conditions, (3) requiring almost everyone to have insurance, and (4) subsidizing some people so they can. Today, we require (under EMTALA) that emergency departments accept patients regardless of ability to pay, and the federal government provides grants to hospitals that end up providing large amounts of unreimbursed care as a result. These grants come at the end of the year in an unpredictable amount, which plays havoc with planning, and the whole system skews medicine away from prevention and into crisis care. Let's get the uninsured into regular insurance programs so they get out of the emergency department and into normal office and clinic treatment, which is far more efficient, and reimburse providers in a normal way instead of block grants.

[Froro]

Thanks for the clarification PST. I thought I had read/interpreted what was going on in the manner you described and thought....that's not like our system at all, what's all the hubub about comparing it to the Canadian system.

[Kiralynx]

I have a question for our Canadian members participating in this thread.

I have also heard quite a bit of the anti-Canadian system blather. (My parents are avid Fox news followers, so whenever I go over to sit with my Mom, I get an earful. Or three.)

I have seen you, the Canadians, saying "This is what I got under this circumstance, and it was great."

But I have also seen posts complaining about Canadian DMEs and the horrid prices they charge. (Gee, our systems aren't that different after all! Most DMEs under both systems are lunkheads!)

So, could you explain (gently, and remembering that I'm still repaying my sleep debt!) how your system DOES work? Or point me to useful, factual, and non-biased (really!) reports on the subject?

Thanks!

[dels]

Each provionce has there own system / programs for things like this. Most people have insurance with work that pay for things like CPAP machines. However for patients who need alot of care, who have complicated medical issues, ( ie. not just OSA) then they are in like me respiratory programs and people from that program ( certified inhalation therapists, respiratory nurses etc) come to your home as often as required to change filters, give new masks, try new things, provide oxygeon and so on. Its excellent support. My DH is on CPAP but his insurance paid for almost all of the costs of the machine, masks and tubing. His doctor wrote what he needed and the insurance never balked at what he needed. Had I not had insurance, everything would have been provided for me. The programs if you do have insurance work with the insurance companies and get reimbursed the amount the patient is covered for and the hospital picks up the costs of the balance. I know others where I live who do not have insurance and they also were accepted into programs that help patients either afford it or get it at no cost. The goal where I live is as much as possible to keep people home and healthy and complient and therefore productive active working members of society.

[Terminator]

I have a question for our Canadian members participating in this thread.

So, could you explain (gently, and remembering that I'm still repaying my sleep debt!) how your system DOES work? Or point me to useful, factual, and non-biased (really!) reports on the subject?

Thanks!

It depends on what province you are in that determines the amount of help you get with CPAP, as an example. Here in Ontario, there is a program called the Assistive Devices Program. It covers about 75 percent of the cost of the machine up to a max of 1040.00; about 780.00. Your co-pay would be 260.00 (Figures are close, I may be off a few dollars on the split) When you get your scrip, you present it at your DME and they supply a basic mask and machine. The DME typically charges the max allowed by the government. (The 1040.00) They may not charge more than 1040 for a CPAP, but they will try to palm off whatever they can get away with. The machine they tried to palm off on me was an entry level CPAP with no exhalation relief and no data capability. I found that machine online for as little as 150.00 (refurb) to as much as 340.00. It isn't in production anymore. Not gonna get into it any deeper than that, but let it suffice that the owners of Medigas will have to be buried in graves dug with a corkscrew when they die of greed. This is what I was referring to when I say that there is insufficient oversight in the administration of the program. Some provinces have no assistance for buying a CPAP. Stuff is often 100+ percent more expensive in Canada because people don't know about their alternatives and basically take what they are given. And DMEs tell them the usual lies about importing their stuff. Competition in Canada is almost non-existent due a lack of native supply/suppliers, hence no competition, and the sheer size of the country vs population. Thank God for online suppliers...

HTH,

T

[BlackSpinner]

I have a question for our Canadian members participating in this thread.
But I have also seen posts complaining about Canadian DMEs and the horrid prices they charge. (Gee, our systems aren't that different after all! Most DMEs under both systems are lunkheads!)
!

The DME's are not part of the health care system anymore then the local pharmacy is and are cover by the same kind of rules. Some provinces cover drugs and medical equipment and some don't. So they bill "insurance companies" either the provinces health care or your insurance you may have from work - same as in the USA.

Each province runs its own health care system. No insurance companies involved. Insurance only comes in when you want a private room or special at home care or jump the line by going to another province/country.
It is funded by a combination of taxes. For example Nova Scotia's is funded through transfer funds and sales tax. The medical practitioner simply used to fill out a punch card with the diagnostic code and the procedure code and send it in to get paid. Now it is done electronically. The only thing you need "permission" for is things like plastic surgery. They have reduced wait times by simply banning that kind of elective surgery from hospitals - it was a good income for them but it caused a lot of the wait times.

[dels]

On line suppliers are great. I actually know people who simply prefere to get what they want on line, especially those wanting back up stuff. Even though everything I need is easily obtained, I still got a few things on line that I wanted! I think though because of the internet, more and more people find out about other options.

Three responces from three provinces. There are certain things that the federal GVT insists a province must provide, but over all each province chooses how they will spend there health care dollars. It is interesting to note that the richest province, with no debt, Alberta, the most "right" of all provinces, also covers the least possible under the law , and has the least amount of programs such as drug coverage for all ( mandatory in Quebec, every one must be insured and if they are not, they must be insured with the government plan for drugs) .

On another topic speaking of internet, it is wonderful, after all when one thinks of all the things we can find, such as on ebay, I was looking for dishes that were discontinued many years ago........I also like the internet looking on line at all the various masks and resp equipment out there.

[Muse-Inc]

...loony lefty Dippers get control of the public purse and start spending like there was no tomorrow...

Ah, like Homeland Security? Starting a war against a country that had nothing to do with the reported reason for the war? In the 90s, our elected Congress undoing all the financial safeguards put in place following the great Depression enabling the chaos we're in now at the urging of those who see the taxpayers as their goose laying those golden eggs? Our Congress voting itself automatic salary increases while most of us have suffered losses of jobs or reduced wages? Our Congress exempting themselves from any proposed changes to healthcare...not that any money was paid them them as campaign contributions from the folks who wanna ensure there is no competition for insurance dollars?

[Froro]

I have a question for our Canadian members participating in this thread.

I have also heard quite a bit of the anti-Canadian system blather. (My parents are avid Fox news followers, so whenever I go over to sit with my Mom, I get an earful. Or three.)

I have seen you, the Canadians, saying "This is what I got under this circumstance, and it was great."

But I have also seen posts complaining about Canadian DMEs and the horrid prices they charge. (Gee, our systems aren't that different after all! Most DMEs under both systems are lunkheads!)

So, could you explain (gently, and remembering that I'm still repaying my sleep debt!) how your system DOES work? Or point me to useful, factual, and non-biased (really!) reports on the subject?

Thanks!

Others have answered well and I'll throw in my two cents. As mentioned the provinces decide how to spend their health care dollars. Primary care is covered, specialists etc are mostly all covered. Homecare is covered as it has been shown to be cheaper on the system and better for the patient to recover at home once it's safe to be sent home under nursing care. A homecare nurse will tend to a patient at home sometimes several times a day while medically necessary. While that seems like a luxury it is much cheaper than taking up space in a hospital and all that entails expense wise.

Other things considered elective are not covered. For example plastic surgery. IF it is medically yes it's covered. If it is cosmetic, it is not. (this is how my entire OSA got diagnosed) I wanted a nose job, and low and behold, I found out I had OSA. Never got the nose job. IF however fixing my nose surgically would improve my congestion and OSA..then it would be covered.

My experience at a DME was different that that of dels. Not being fully educated in the industry and such I at least got a good machine and excellent mask. They did however charge the province the full 1040, so they would get their $780and then charged my insurance company another $1300 on top of that.

We carry insurance to cover things like chiropractors (not under provincial plan physiotherapy (that one is a bit wiggy, but not completely covered by province, but is in certain circumstances), physchologists, massage, dental, etc. Our insurance covers our drugs, private room at hosp, orthopedic supplies like crutches, braces, etc etc)

Things like mole removals not covered unless precancerous as opposed to cosmetic. That kind of thing. We have a choice of doctors. You are not obligated to see any doctor. It has taken us a long time to find a family doc we could trust but we found one eventually and are very happy with him working closely and proactively on issues or potential issues before they become one. Hope that helps.

[Julie]

Something didn't get answered here, so... Part of the reason Canadians pay so much for Cpap equipment is that it's all imported from either the U.S., Australia, or Europe, but the vast majority from the U.S. and your dollar has been higher than ours for a long time (except for a very short time last year). I don't know where Free Trade stands on this stuff, but what costs $100 in the U.S. on any given day can cost us anywhere from $110. to $200. (or pick a number). Plus Canadian suppliers are always at another disadvantage because they don't have anything like the customer base the U.S. companies do, and therefore it's difficult for prices to drop due to the popularity of merchandise when only a small percentage of people are paying to begin with - almost as if it were on a custom basis, rather than e.g. Cpap.com that (comparatively) seems almost like a discount set-up. It all adds up!