Problems in Canada with Socialized Medicine?

cflame1 wrote:The biggest complaint that I hear from my family in Canada is a lack of medical professionals, usually doctors, and for the most part usually family doctors.

That's a problem I'm well familiar with -- New Orleans still has not recovered from Hurricane Katrina, in terms of medical services. And, I think it is not uncommon in this day and age, for medical professionals to prefer the cities where there are facilities. The days of people like Elizabeth Matheson (The Doctor Rode Side Saddle) and others is long past.

Harry and I are looking to relocate further inland when he retires, but he can't consider an earlier retirement because of my pre-existing conditions -- he may have to stay where he is until I am Medicare age. That's one reason I'm curious about how the Canadian system works, to contrast what we have -- or don't have -- available here.

In any case, we cannot leave New Orleans at the present with my Mom so ill.

rooster wrote:

Julie wrote: ..Stop Calling it Socialized Medicine!! .....

No. I will not.

Every country is somewhere on a scale between socialism and capitalism. There has never been a governed country that was purely capitalistic and there has never been a country that was purely socialistic (not even any of the communist countries). The debate is about how far to one side or the other a country will be and what elements will fall in which category.

The history of governments and economies shows that the countries with the highest economic standard of living correlate well with being further toward the capitalist side.

I don't think socialism is a dirty word. Do the socialists?

I do believe we can make changes, with all heaven's good intentions, that make the overall good situation deteriorate. We should be careful to avoid that!

The problem is that the word "socialism" has been redefined to mean anything that frightens the most regressive elements on our country. People who have actually lived in socialist countries think this whole discussion is absurd.

BlackSpinner wrote:Tests can be done fast if you have extra health insurance. Xrays are mostly walk ins here in the big city. As far as cancer is concerned it depends on the type and tests. Some hospitals are swamped others are fast. There has been a lot of changes in the past few years here in Quebec. The system is constantly changing to meet new needs, new technology. But not to make more money for insurance providers or HMO's. So stories you hear about 4 years ago are old stuff, no longer relevant.

And if you don't have extra health insurance? Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm trying to understand how it might work for someone like my friend in Ontario -- and why it seemed to me that her treatments consisted of "hurry up and wait," until a family friend with "connections" intervened. The friend talked to a High muckety-muck, who agreed to see my friend, concluded that her issues did not lie in his/her field, but gave her a referal to another high-muckety-muck who could help her, and could get tests performed quickly.

BlackSpinner wrote:No system is perfect because there are limited funds, space and a limited number of medical specialist. Every system juggles priorities, it is whether you want juggled based on your health needs or their profit.

Well, I have precious little use for the U.S. insurance companies in general, having seen how people (like us) got taken to the cleaners over the damage from Hurricane Katrina.

I understand that there is priority juggling, and that no system is perfect. I've been mostly fortunate with our current insurance. But I'm trying to understand what seems to me to be the most critical aspect of the Canadian care as I understand it. (Please note: I'm not criticizing. I'm saying that this is as I understand it at this time, and I'm willing to learn differently.) And that is what I see as appalling delays in care.

When I was diagnosed with cancer in February of 2008, my surgery, because of one thing and another, largely due to scheduling issues for the available facilities, wasn't until the beginning of April. That two months was a horrible wait. I cannot imagine being told it would take 4-6 or 6-8 months for them to get around to my surgery, that I had to risk the cancer metastasizing because (whatever the reason was). Such a delay, regardless of reason, seems to me to be juggling with my health.

In Ontario, if you don't have extra health coverage for drugs, then some of the more expensive newer drugs for your condition can be obtained using what is called a "Section 8" (that name may have changed but it is still in effect). With documentation of a need for that drug from your doctor, the Ontario Government may pay for it. This is, of course, a wait time for approval! There is also a special Provincial fund available, with medical and financial need documentation, for most drugs if you can't afford them and have no extra health coverage for drugs. Lots of paper work for both of these!

If you are a senior (as I am) most drugs are covered in total by the Provincial Government, except for some of the more expensive newer ones. Then I have to have my doctor apply for a Section 8 for those as well.

Without extra coverage you don't get a private or semi private room in hospital (unless you can pay the extra yourself). You get a ward bed, which is 3 or 4 beds in a room. Of course, semi private is an "addon" for many extra health coverage plans.

Extra health coverge will not move you up the line in terms of wait times for procedures, but "knowing someone" or knowing someone who "knows someone" may! I know of situations like that! The other thing that will move you up the line is the situation becoming too serious to wait (whatever that means). I saw a surgeon re a shoulder replacement surgery last month. The wait time is 10 months! I have Rheumatoid Arthritis.

There are "emergency slots" always available if things deteriorate too much or become just unbearable I was told and I am to call if I get "really bad". Funny thing is, I would not have seen a surgeon in the first place if it wasn't bad! After all, I have lived with RA and its pain, for almost 20 years now. I had 2 joints replaced 14 and 15 years ago and the wait was a couple of months for those. Surgery is a last resort for me.

Things have changed! The Canadian politician who pushed for and got "Universal Health Care" instituted in Canada did not have the current situation in mind!

As you said, no system is perfect----.

I would say problems are encountered waiting for specialists, also finding doctors in small towns. Remember Canada is a large country, but only has 1/10 the population of the USA. Not many doctors want to work out in the sticks or the far north.

One thing no one has pointed out is differences in life expectancy. These figures are from Wikipedia and represent life expectancy at birth, overall, male, female.

Canada 81.23 78.69 83.91
United States 78.2 75.6 80.8

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy

While I realize there are a number of differences in the general populations of both countries, I think that statistic does speak well of the Canadian health system.

Having worked in major teaching hospitals up here all my life, I have to say that possibly barring a couple of seriously world class celebrities whose time is understandably limited, I have never heard of, nor seen any sign of anyone getting faster or more special treatment because they "knew someone".

As a patient who has been involved in the healthcare system in Ontario, heavily for almost 20 years now, I have! I am sorry to say that but it is true.

MapleG wrote: I would say problems are encountered waiting for specialists, also finding doctors in small towns. Remember Canada is a large country, but only has 1/10 the population of the USA. Not many doctors want to work out in the sticks or the far north.

Truth to tell, waiting for specialists seems to be a, er, specialty, of the medical profession! Even so, one wonders what could be done to improve wait times.

And I can't say I blame people for not wanting to work in the far north. Of course, from down here in Louisiana, the US/Canadian border is the far north!

MapleG wrote: While I realize there are a number of differences in the general populations of both countries, I think that statistic does speak well of the Canadian health system.

I think I would have to agree.

Julie wrote:Having worked in major teaching hospitals up here all my life, I have to say that possibly barring a couple of seriously world class celebrities whose time is understandably limited, I have never heard of, nor seen any sign of anyone getting faster or more special treatment because they "knew someone".

I can only report what I was told by a friend whose truthfulness I have no reason to doubt.

Hawthorne wrote:In Ontario, if you don't have extra health coverage for drugs, then some of the more expensive newer drugs for your condition can be obtained using what is called a "Section 8" (that name may have changed but it is still in effect). With documentation of a need for that drug from your doctor, the Ontario Government may pay for it. This is, of course, a wait time for approval! There is also a special Provincial fund available, with medical and financial need documentation, for most drugs if you can't afford them and have no extra health coverage for drugs. Lots of paper work for both of these!

Yes, I remember my friend mentioning having to fill out her Section 8s and then wait, and wait, and wait.... I nearly fell over laughing, and teased the daylights out of her, because "Section 8" used to be a US military term for the crazy farm. (I almost said "looney bin," and then decided not to, given the coinage....)

If you are a senior (as I am) most drugs are covered in total by the Provincial Government, except for some of the more expensive newer ones. Then I have to have my doctor apply for a Section 8 for those as well.

That seems like a good system.

Without extra coverage you don't get a private or semi private room in hospital (unless you can pay the extra yourself). You get a ward bed, which is 3 or 4 beds in a room. Of course, semi private is an "addon" for many extra health coverage plans.

One thing which I admit that I appreciate about a trend in the U.S. is towards all private rooms. I had one for my cancer surgery, and because it was a private room, it had a pull-out bed which my husband could sleep on. I appreciated knowing he was there. And that kind of set-up was critical until we initiated hospice for my Mom. She became terribly agitated if she was alone in the hospital room -- which was one reason I got a back-up machine for easy carrying to and from the hospital, since, if Mom was not in a private room (as happened once), they wouldn't let Dad stay over night.

Extra health coverge will not move you up the line in terms of wait times for procedures, but "knowing someone" or knowing someone who "knows someone" may! I know of situations like that! The other thing that will move you up the line is the situation becoming too serious to wait (whatever that means). I saw a surgeon re a shoulder replacement surgery last month. The wait time is 10 months! I have Rheumatoid Arthritis.

Ten months! Wow, and a friend of mine here though 4 months was long to wait. (SHe had some issues with a skin infection which her surgeon insisted had to be cleared up before the surgery.)

There are "emergency slots" always available if things deteriorate too much or become just unbearable I was told and I am to call if I get "really bad". Funny thing is, I would not have seen a surgeon in the first place if it wasn't bad! After all, I have lived with RA and its pain, for almost 20 years now. I had 2 joints replaced 14 and 15 years ago and the wait was a couple of months for those. Surgery is a last resort for me.

Indeed. What defines, "really bad"? I know my friend with the hip replacement wouldn't have even considered surgery until it was "really bad."

Things have changed! The Canadian politician who pushed for and got "Universal Health Care" instituted in Canada did not have the current situation in mind!

As you said, no system is perfect----.

One wonders what situation the politician DID have in mind, and what factors intervened to yield the current good-but-slow system.

Wait times are dependant also on severity of condition. I have a very ill family member now who needed an immediate CT of the head and it was done within hours. However ( and NOT through emergency) my girlfriend who has a bumb knee had to wait three months, but frankly, does she really need the MRI? I will say she doesnt, and I encouraged her in the time to wait to get physio, do other things, wear a knee brace and its doing much better now. For that matter research has shown that doing a repair of the knee while provides quicker immediate relief, three years down the line those with physio, brace and so on had the same results as those with surgery.........Some thing to think about. Some times we use tests to confirm obvious diagnosis, and its not always warranted. We must also consider as a patient our exposure to radiation and dyes and so on that are being injected into us for these tests. These tests are serious and must be given when really warranted. If one is waiting to long for a tests and pain is truly an issue and they cannot live their life , you can always go to the emergency and you will get the test much quicker. ( ie. for those without private insurance) As for connections, the fact is in life, some one always knows some one and if I have a good friend who is a specialist and I need help, obviously over coffee I mught say "Gee I really need help with this" or s/he may say "I see your having trouble can I help". But is that really any differant than any other area in life? My friend worked at the bank and my son didnt have everything he needed, she saw him needing help and went to him to help him. Is that abuse? No thats some one knowing some one , seeing they need help and taking their time to help them. Surgeries are set on priority and cancer surgery is at the top of the list.

Kiralynx-since you have an interest in the topic, here is a web page on Wikipedia you may find of interest. Just found it right now. I just skimmed through it, and it looks like it was primarily written by someone living in Ontario..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Canada)

And to add to the increased life expectancy

Western Nations Lead UNDP 2009 Human Development Report; Canada In 4th Place

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles ... th%20Place

The US comes 13th

BlackSpinner wrote:And to add to the increased life expectancy...the US comes 13th

We came in that high? I'm surprised; we come in something like 25th in infant and maternal survival. This with maybe the most sophisticated medical healthcare system inthe world...what does that say about the delivery of that healthcare. Sad sad sad.

dels wrote:Wait times are dependant also on severity of condition.

I've gathered that emergencies are emergencies.

For that matter research has shown that doing a repair of the knee while provides quicker immediate relief, three years down the line those with physio, brace and so on had the same results as those with surgery...

No argument there. I do water therapy for my hips and knees because I refused the standard treatment, NSAIDs, with possible surgery. The orthopedist told me that his normal procedure would be this. BUt since I wasn't willing, we could try therapy. I suspect, four years ago, he thought I wouldn't stay with it -- and it IS a nuisance to take 9-12 hours out of my week to go do the exercises. OTOH, I haven't needed to see him since then. I sometimes think that the number of tests which are run in the U.S. are because our society is so litigious.

As for connections, the fact is in life, some one always knows some one and if I have a good friend who is a specialist and I need help, obviously over coffee I mught say "Gee I really need help with this" or s/he may say "I see your having trouble can I help". But is that really any differant than any other area in life? My friend worked at the bank and my son didnt have everything he needed, she saw him needing help and went to him to help him. Is that abuse? No that's some one knowing some one , seeing they need help and taking their time to help them. Surgeries are set on priority and cancer surgery is at the top of the list.

Agreed that recommendations and connections can work exactly as you say.

However, if, as you say, "Surgeries are set on priority and cancer surgery is at the top of the list." then where are the scare-mongers getting the multiple situations with cancer patients in which the people must wait months for treatment, and if they hadn't paid for treatment in the U.S., they'd be dead?

Please note that I am fully aware that there are doubtless many thousands who have been treated in a (for their situation) timely manner. I'm just wondering how the people the scare-mongers are interviewing managed to fall through the cracks.