Is interupted sleep considered insomnia?

OhHelpMe wrote:

Wulfman... wrote:
What machine and pressure setting(s) are you using?
If you're using an APAP in a range of pressures, I'd be suspicious of the pressure changes disturbing your sleep before thinking of something like "insomnia".


Den

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Agreed.

Yes. Too many too quick to jump to a discussion about drugs.

1. What does your CPAP data show? Events? Leak line? Pressure change?

2. Do you have a good diet?

3. Do you have a regular, moderate exercise program?

4. Are you fastidious about practicing good sleep hygiene?

5. What other health conditions do you have?

6. What drugs are you taking?

7. Have you had a recent full physical?

We blame doctors for being quick to prescribe drugs, but that is what way too many patients want.

ChicagoGramps

I tried looking back through his posts and thought I saw a reference to a "750" machine which would be a System One bi-level. If he's using it in "Auto" mode, that would also be changing pressures.......and potentially sleep-disturbing.


Den

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Wulfman... wrote:I tried looking back through his posts and thought I saw a reference to a "750" machine which would be a System One bi-level. If he's using it in "Auto" mode, that would also be changing pressures.......and potentially sleep-disturbing.


Den

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While auto can cause problems, it does not cause problems for every one. And in some cases auto does improve things.

In my case the aerophagia on fixed pressure PAP and fixed pressure BiPAP was more than my stomach could bear: On many nights I was waking up in severe pain and finding myself unable to get back to sleep. And even when there were no aerophagia-caused wakes, I was waking up exhausted and unable to function and more often than not in serious pain from the aeorphagia. I finally was able to start getting a decent hour or hour and half of sleep here and there only after starting on BiPAP Auto. One fact that I'm resigned to is that I cannot tolerate BiPAP at 8/6 full time, but that I do need 8/6 at certain times to properly keep the OSA under control. (I had one titration that resulted in a pressure setting of 7/4; my tummy could handle that, but it did not properly control the snoring and OSA.)

robysue wrote:

Wulfman... wrote:I tried looking back through his posts and thought I saw a reference to a "750" machine which would be a System One bi-level. If he's using it in "Auto" mode, that would also be changing pressures.......and potentially sleep-disturbing.


Den

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While auto can cause problems, it does not cause problems for every one. And in some cases auto does improve things.

In my case the aerophagia on fixed pressure PAP and fixed pressure BiPAP was more than my stomach could bear: On many nights I was waking up in severe pain and finding myself unable to get back to sleep. And even when there were no aerophagia-caused wakes, I was waking up exhausted and unable to function and more often than not in serious pain from the aeorphagia. I finally was able to start getting a decent hour or hour and half of sleep here and there only after starting on BiPAP Auto. One fact that I'm resigned to is that I cannot tolerate BiPAP at 8/6 full time, but that I do need 8/6 at certain times to properly keep the OSA under control. (I had one titration that resulted in a pressure setting of 7/4; my tummy could handle that, but it did not properly control the snoring and OSA.)

I've never said that. But, I've seen and helped many people using "Autos" in ranges of pressures......who have had problems, that with switching to single pressures, have gotten better sleep quality.

So, when I see someone who complains about problems that MAY be related to frequent wakening, I throw it out as a possibility.


Den

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ChicagoGranny wrote:

OhHelpMe wrote:

Wulfman... wrote:
What machine and pressure setting(s) are you using?
If you're using an APAP in a range of pressures, I'd be suspicious of the pressure changes disturbing your sleep before thinking of something like "insomnia".


Den

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Agreed.

Yes. Too many too quick to jump to a discussion about drugs.

I'm a great believer in answering questions that have been ask. I'll be honest: I know that ruinednose has some issues. It's not clear from his previous posts whether he's got the PAPing all straightened out.

But this post was a straightforward question about whether a particular kind of sleep pattern can be called insomnia. Ruinednose did not bring up sleep medication in this thread; I did. And I did because it was relevant in two different ways: First, the commonly prescribed sleeping pills do little or nothing to help truly persistent sleep maintenance insomnia. Second, there is real reason to hope that suvorexant may prove to be a useful tool for dealing with sleep maintenance insomnia.

Not all sleep problems can be solved by CPAP (whether it be fixed pressure or not). And regardless of what Ruinednose's other problems are, the fact is that sleep maintenance insomnia is very difficult to treat.

Yes, if you have OSA, PAP is part of the solution. But there are a heck of a lot of us out there who do PAP every night with GOOD numbers and who still have sleep problems. I don't know if Ruinednose is one or or not. But I am. And I have learned far too much the hard way about dealing with intractable insomnia and PAP at the same time. The fact is PAP can be disrupting to one's sleep. And that's FIXED CPAP as well as APAP or BiPAP or Auto BiPAP. But you do what you have to do.

And in some cases, that means dealing with the sleep problems as being caused by something independent of the OSA.

Finally I'm writing this for one reason: We do no-one a service when experienced members of the forum come off as treating someone like Ruinednose who posts an honest question with answers that come across as blaming the poster for their continuing problems with making this crazy therapy work.

Roby, I agree with you. It was a simple question. Yes, problems with sleep maintenance can be insomnia (they can also be symptoms of other things, but that isn't what was asked).

There is a tendency for posters to be judgmental of new visitors to the forum. I wish we wouldn't do that...

Nick Danger wrote:Roby, I agree with you. It was a simple question. Yes, problems with sleep maintenance can be insomnia (they can also be symptoms of other things, but that isn't what was asked).

There is a tendency for posters to be judgmental of new visitors to the forum. I wish we wouldn't do that...

I would suggest that you go through and read/review ALL of Mr. Ruinednose's threads/posts going back to last November.
Vast numbers of us have tried to be helpful and NOT "judgmental" of this forum member.
However, one of the problems with this poster has been that when questions have been asked, the answers have not been forthcoming.


Den

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In thinking about fragmented sleep disorders, the following list comes to mind.
1. Obstructive and central apneas
2. Severe snoring (rousing because of the noise)
3. Stress and psychological issues
4. Physical medical issues including various tumors including paroxsysmal secreters, arthritic issues, degenerative diseases
5. Chemically induced disorders - narcotics, alcohol, caffeine and other stimulants
6. RLS, PLMD, and other neurological disorders

There must be other causes (this list cannot be complete) but CPAP seems to only apply to 1 & 2.

Ruinednose wrote:is it a type of insomnia? interupted sleep? i have no problem getting to sleep or returning to sleep any time after an awakening, but i toss and turn mainly on the second half of the night, i wake up a lot.
is that insomnia? or something else?

I would suggest you do Google searches on each of the following:

"are frequent awakenings insomnia"

"insomnia and CPAP therapy"

"insomnia causes and diagnosis"

I really think it would be beneficial if you try to determine WHAT it is that's interrupting your sleep.


Den

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robysue wrote:Yes, if you have OSA, PAP is part of the solution. But there are a heck of a lot of us out there who do PAP every night with GOOD numbers and who still have sleep problems. I don't know if Ruinednose is one or or not. But I am. And I have learned far too much the hard way about dealing with intractable insomnia and PAP at the same time. The fact is PAP can be disrupting to one's sleep. And that's FIXED CPAP as well as APAP or BiPAP or Auto BiPAP. But you do what you have to do.

And in some cases, that means dealing with the sleep problems as being caused by something independent of the OSA.

I agree... PAP is "part" of the solution. It surprises me that people still don't understand that PAP can be successful with using every night and good numbers, but that sleep problems still exist! It's PART of the solution - NOT the complete solution.

Also, there is no doubt in my mind that dealing with sleep problems can, and in many cases are, caused by something independent of OSA. The number of folks who don't see that is surprising.

And, I agree that Ruined asked a question - whether he followed or read suggestions here or not... he deserved an answer. I hope he came back and read this thread.

RobySue wrote:I'm a great believer in answering questions that have been ask (sic).

The OP did not ask a question about drugs. You quite quickly introduced the subject of drugs in this thread.

Nick Danger wrote:
There is a tendency for posters to be judgmental of new visitors to the forum.

RobySue wrote:answers that come across as blaming the poster for their continuing problems

You two have imagination duality. No one blamed the OP for his problems - go read the posts - its your imagination. You two introduced the subject of "blame the OP".

There is no need to get emotional about this thread. The problem can be explored in a factual, straightforward way. As I said before, here are some of the initial questions that need to be answered:

1. What does your CPAP data show? Events? Leak line? Pressure change?

2. Do you have a good diet?

3. Do you have a regular, moderate exercise program?

4. Are you fastidious about practicing good sleep hygiene?

5. What other health conditions do you have?

6. What drugs are you taking?

7. Have you had a recent full physical?

ChicagoGramps

ChicagoGranny wrote:

RobySue wrote:I'm a great believer in answering questions that have been ask (sic).

The OP did not ask a question about drugs. You quite quickly introduced the subject of drugs in this thread.

Nick Danger wrote:
There is a tendency for posters to be judgmental of new visitors to the forum.

RobySue wrote:answers that come across as blaming the poster for their continuing problems

You two have imagination duality. No one blamed the OP for his problems - go read the posts - its your imagination. You two introduced the subject of "blame the OP".

There is no need to get emotional about this thread. The problem can be explored in a factual, straightforward way. As I said before, here are some of the initial questions that need to be answered:

1. What does your CPAP data show? Events? Leak line? Pressure change?

2. Do you have a good diet?

3. Do you have a regular, moderate exercise program?

4. Are you fastidious about practicing good sleep hygiene?

5. What other health conditions do you have?

6. What drugs are you taking?

7. Have you had a recent full physical?

ChicagoGramps

There is so much more to it than what you posted (twice). If you don't want to acknowledge that, that's up to you. Robysue (and others) have stated more than once that your 1 - 7 steps were tried; to no avail. RS mentioned a drug that once approved "might" help more than any of the sleep meds out there. I'm delighted she did and will discuss it with my doctor sooner than later. I have practiced your 1 - 7 steps to sleep. For me (and others here on this forum) they haven't worked. Yes, I'll take the lowest dose possible to allow me to sleep. Do you think it's better to be awake and walking around the house all night? No sleep doesn't allow one to function properly - let alone things like driving and even walking without falling! Yes, if approved, I'll certainly explore this "drug".

ems wrote:

ChicagoGranny wrote:

RobySue wrote:I'm a great believer in answering questions that have been ask (sic).

The OP did not ask a question about drugs. You quite quickly introduced the subject of drugs in this thread.

Nick Danger wrote:
There is a tendency for posters to be judgmental of new visitors to the forum.

RobySue wrote:answers that come across as blaming the poster for their continuing problems

You two have imagination duality. No one blamed the OP for his problems - go read the posts - its your imagination. You two introduced the subject of "blame the OP".

There is no need to get emotional about this thread. The problem can be explored in a factual, straightforward way. As I said before, here are some of the initial questions that need to be answered:

1. What does your CPAP data show? Events? Leak line? Pressure change?

2. Do you have a good diet?

3. Do you have a regular, moderate exercise program?

4. Are you fastidious about practicing good sleep hygiene?

5. What other health conditions do you have?

6. What drugs are you taking?

7. Have you had a recent full physical?

ChicagoGramps

There is so much more to it than what you posted (twice). If you don't want to acknowledge that, that's up to you. Robysue (and others) have stated more than once that your 1 - 7 steps were tried; to no avail. RS mentioned a drug that once approved "might" help more than any of the sleep meds out there. I'm delighted she did and will discuss it with my doctor sooner than later. I have practiced your 1 - 7 steps to sleep. For me (and others here on this forum) they haven't worked. Yes, I'll take the lowest dose possible to allow me to sleep. Do you think it's better to be awake and walking around the house all night? No sleep doesn't allow one to function properly - let alone things like driving and even walking without falling! Yes, if approved, I'll certainly explore this "drug".

I thought this thread was about "Ruinednose"...... His problems and his question(s)....... I guess not.


Den

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Wulfman... wrote:I thought this thread was about "Ruinednose"...... His problems and his question(s)....... I guess not.


Den

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You gave me the impression that you thought Ruinednose wasn't following any of the suggestions mentioned in replying to his posts since he joined the forum.

The above sentence was meant to annoy... you accomplished that.

ems wrote:

Wulfman... wrote:I thought this thread was about "Ruinednose"...... His problems and his question(s)....... I guess not.


Den

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You gave me the impression that you thought Ruinednose wasn't following any of the suggestions mentioned in replying to his posts since he joined the forum.

The above sentence was meant to annoy... you accomplished that.

RIGHT! Anybody who has tried to help him has discovered that. He'll post questions and then sometime later come back and start threads with other/similar problems.

I think it was this thread he started in January that turned many from actually trying to "help" him.

How to use that Cpap warranty
Post by Ruinednose on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:41 pm

I noticed that you didn't post in that thread. I suggest you read it.


Den

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