The Big Lie

I want to clarify my position. I do believe in the "Big Lie" AND I do not want to "throw out the baby with the bath water". That means that I believe revolutionary changes need to be made in the health care system and that I still want doctors around after the "revolution". I use the term revolution because these changes need to go right to the basis of our thinking about health care & doctors. I was guilty of it in my previous post. I rethought my statement about making the pharmacist the head of the team. By my own argument it is ME. I have to take in information from all the team and make decisions about my care. I do the hiring & firing. I do the day to day management.

To that end-this forum and the internet are two of my tools. An APAP, computer, the software & card reader are on their way. If the current sleep doc doesn't want to be part of the team-oh well guess I'll have to find another.

_________________

CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): APAP

krousseau wrote:By my own argument it is ME. I have to take in information from all the team and make decisions about my care. I do the hiring & firing. I do the day to day management.

Now I am going to betray my liberal leanings. I don't disagree with Krousseau but there is are segments of our society that, for a wide variety of reasons, do not have the capacity, skill, resources to take over this job completely. Some may be able to manage more or less and should be given every opportunity to participate in and make important decisions but, if responsibility effectively devolves to the patient (for want of a better word) then safeguards that protect need to exist as well. Since the system is made up of so many diverse parts it should be more trustworthy. The amount of time I could spend on ensuring the efficacy of my OSA therapy and other health care issues is exponential. I have to make a living and have a life as well.

David

BTW-given that I have seen a new doctor every time I go the sleep center-should I think anyone has the remotest idea of who I am/what my health problems are-I think NOT. Even when I am in the same room for followups-now think about calling the clinic for a problem-I'm going to get a recipe approach-not an answer that reflects a reasoned coordinated approach. Sometimes I'm lucky & I get a doctor I can discuss things with and come away with something new I can use.

I have been on the fence about ordering the card reader & software for one of the reasons you mentioned-I have a life-but that the also the thing that got me off the fence-I want to keep that life. Yes I feel better but I want a few more details about how the treatment is going and to be able to modify the treatment to make it work better.

David-I totally agree. That is why bandaid fixes won't work-this is revolutionary change that goes beyond medicine-into an educational system that produces illiterate graduates. College graduates that cannot think through complex situations. Given that I'm 65 there is a strong possibility I will become one of that segment of the population that cannot manage my own care. Hopefully I'm building a relationship with my internist that will inform her in caring for me later. I have an advance health care directive, I discuss my medical care with my partner.

There are people in the system that can be trusted. When I was a nurse practitioner working with a doctor,social worker, PT/OT, making home visits to that segment of the population (the most satisfying work I ever did) We got people to discuss their care with us and later advocated for them when they were hospitalized-we brought doctors before ethics boards, we got people care or we allowed them to die if that was what they wanted. So we were only a few people dealing with only a few clients.
I'll go with Margaret Mead. "Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. ..."

I will not even lower myself to say what I really would like to say to "Guest's" snide remarks. And as for you NighthawkWOOD, since you seem to want to just get your digs in now by twisting my name, you can forget any further communication with me. I would have been glad to banter this generalization you made around with you, but you have just shown me the disrespect you have probably given your physicians. Now I know why they don't want to give you any more than 6 minutes of their time. Good Luck!

Tumbleweed wrote: And as for you NighthawkWOOD, since you seem to want to just get your digs in now by twisting my name, you can forget any further communication with me.

Where, when, how? I just wnt through the posts and can find no place where Bill was particularly disrespectful to anyone and certainly not to you in particular.

Smoke, just has to be smoke.

The thing is that whenever someone confronts a person who has, or people who have bought into or are perpetuating the "Big Lie" for whatever reason the smoke starts appearing, defensiveness and attack become prevalent, the personal accusations fly, and obsfucations become rampant, hence I am a Nazi and what I am saying is held comparable to Mein Kampf, SHEEEESH! I will not get into where this is most prevalent but...it is not only endemic, it is epidemic. We are told to take responsibility, think for ourselves but when a person does the mud comes flying - In My Humble Opinion.

To the best of our ability we have to stand up and name the lie when it appears.


David

David-

I don't know whether you are a Nazi or not, and frankly, I could care less. I certainly never called you one (or anyone else ever, for that matter).

I continue to resent, abhor and will fight vitriol based on inflammatory and unsubstantiated statements crafted in the vein: "Everybody knows that....." I'll fight for your right to say such nonsense, here or anywhere else, but I'll also fight you about it every time.

It is such unsubstantiated vitriol that fuels hatred and bigotry. it fuels fascism such as was borne from Mein Kampf. It fuels paranoia and persecution such as was the coin of the realm of McCarthy. And, it may fuel medical catastrophes in those who become unwilling or hesitant to seek medical attention when they legitimately need it, because of their uninformed allegiance to what they read on these pages.

So David et. al., you go. Keep it up. But as long as your comments remain unsubstantiated, I'll be right here in your face. Give some facts for folks to consider that will allow them to make informed decisions, and I'll applaud you every time as well.

Chuck

Chuck,

You've heard the facts, over and over again. The process is broken. Everytime I deal with the health care industry I have to fight tooth and nail. I have to fight to get appointments on time (an extremely rare event), I have to fight to get the right meds in the right dosages. I have to fight to reconcile what one doctor tells with what another doctor tells me and even a third doctor tells me. I see my rates go up and the service levels remain flat or decline. I watch my co-workers, one of whom is struggling with a very serious non-specific neuropathy, fight to get the care they need they endure endless battles with insurance, plan administrators, overcharges, incorrect charges, uncertain diagnosis and conflicting doctores, to get specialized care, which he finally did get, took a herculean effort and I don't exaggerate.

What I had to say was not unsubstantiated dogma, I have lived it but you choose not to believe me because you either have a lot of money, are a part of the system or have been extraordinarily fortunate and you can not accept my testimony, the testimony of numerous folks here on the forum and millions of words of reputable reportage.

At no time in my discourse did I say "Everybody knows that....." nor do I think anyone else did other than as a rhetorical device. As good old Will said - "methinks you doth protest too much".

If anyone reviewed what was said in this thread there was little vitriol (certainly as I understand the word) and little that was inflammatory (other than to exaggerated sensibilities perhaps). My statements were substantiated by my own personal experience of the system and I believe Bill's as well. You suggest that we find another more effective Doctor. How on earth, in an affordable reasonable manner within the context of the current insurance system does one do that in a reasonable fashion and time? Tell me that please and I'll leave the field of battle. Tell me how the system really does work well and where it dosn't need reform and changing. Where the vast majority of practioners can really give the time, energy and resources to meeting patient needs regardless of ability to pay. Tell me all that, substantiate your position! I have mine.

I will reiterate, anyone without a vested interest in how it currently works can see that the health care system works very poorly in this country. The fact that it works somewhat better than anyhere else does not excuse its severe failings.

When you compare what Bill, myself, Goofproof et. al. say to Mein Kampf you certainly are implying that, if we are not Nazi's we use equivalent tactics and thought processes. I don't need, or want your defense of my rights, I can take care of that myself and have many, many times - as well as defended your rights in active wartime service. I will let others decide who is being nonsensical in this debate for I am confident in my understanding of my, and others, experience.

In no way am I tarring all, or even most, of the folks in the health care industry but even those that wish to do a good job, and they are legion, shake their heads at the obstacles, costs and idiocies they have to contend with on a daily basis. I have watched them do it, I have had them tell me about it.

So, again, you have your opinion and I have mine. Mine have not been shared in a vitriolic, unsubtatiated, inflammatory manner. It seems that only one that got lit up was you.

I will close with saying that my therapy is working effectively because of the folks on this forum, not because of a single thing a doctor did for me other than refer me to the sleep study. No one, not a single person in the health care chain without confrontation and me challenging them, explained to me what the next steps were and how to manage beginning my therapy in a reasonable and effective manner. After driving 35 minutes to the DME's office and waiting 20 additional minutes an RT spent 10 minutes with me to give me my Remstar Pro, humidifier and try 3 interfaces finally giving me the cheapest one they had and from what I've heard on this board that is pretty damn good service - yeah, right!

Enough, have a good night.

David

Tumbleweed wrote:And as for you NighthawkWOOD, since you seem to want to just get your digs in now by twisting my name, you can forget any further communication with me.

My apologies, Tumbleweed. An innocent mistake. It happens. Certainly no need to take offense. Personally, I don't see the dig in it anyway, but again my apologies.

Regards,
Bill

You too, David.

I hope that you sleep well.

Chuck

Chuck:

It is such unsubstantiated vitriol that fuels hatred and bigotry. .... It fuels paranoia and persecution such as was the coin of the realm of McCarthy.

That closed-mindedness, paranoia, bigotry, is usually found within any given resonse; it may be well-hidden, but the smell of it is there. I am prejudiced against these people, for they are determined to do me harm. I stay away from them. Why argue a point? They usually want to DO the CONVERTING!

So David et. al., you go. Keep it up. But as long as your comments remain unsubstantiated,

Re doctors not providing/having/willing to give sufficient time (as we see it):
I recently found that my evil-dme had records from the pulmonary doctor I had seen following my sleep study. That record was NOT provided to my primary physician (I learned just yesterday). Luckily, I had requested a copy from the not-so-evil-DME, and noticed in the Dr's notes that I was to have certain tests, an overnight oximeter, yadayadayada!!
My family doctor called his office, and NOW I have the appointment that SOMEONE/ANYONE failed to follow through! This has also happened with the cardiologist! I HAVE PROBLEMS!! My point is that WE MUST ask for and RECEIVE every piece of paper we can get! I cannot 'assume' than my family doctor is receiving feedback that is due her. Since I am the 'customer', and in my state, all I need to do is "ask", I get a copy and ensure that my teammate (family dr.) has the same info. I am now asking
each doctor "What is the PLAN?", and I let him/her watch me WRITE it down. Then I must ensure that it is followed through, even if I need to grease the wheel. It IS too bad, I agree, but I'd rather take control and get something done, rather than wait until the next cycle of "co-pay deductible needs to be met" - (read YEAR).

GREAT post!!!

Thanks for sharing it with us all.

Chuck

If you're intelligent and willing to do the research, then you'll be ahead of the game no matter how the system works.

Our system is geared towards people who want a quick fix, and don't want to hear things that they don't want to do. It took over a year for my step brother to convince me to go to a sleep clinic... I thought I was fine. I know three people who have been diagnosed with sleep apnea, and none of them even bothered to get the machine. They are all too happy to take anti-depressants and other quick fix drugs though. Just take a look at the compliance rates for CPAP therapy, even with the incredible success rate it has.

If you're even using a CPAP machine after you've been diagnosed with sleep apnea, you're in the minority. If you've done enough research to know what machine you want, you're an exception. If you're actually willing to analyze data and understand fully the condition you have... well, I imagine that's so infrequent that any health care system can't cater to you.

Chuck,

Here's what the whole discussion has been about - the need for patients to take charge of their own healthcare.

Offerocker wrote:Then I must ensure that it is followed through, even if I need to grease the wheel. It IS too bad, I agree, but I'd rather take control and get something done, rather than wait until the next cycle of "co-pay deductible needs to be met" - (read YEAR).

The "Big Lie" which asserts that a physician needs to be in charge of your personal health is for anything but personal control and responsibility.

I don't believe that I've touched upon the motivations for perpetuating the "Big Lie", although others have. In any case, it doesn't so much now matter why it came into being, although I'm sure that could be a quite interesting thread in itself. I do believe, as apparently do others, that it is not useful to continue to propagate it.

As you yourself said, Chuck:

GoofyUT wrote:I'll fight for your right to say such nonsense, here or anywhere else, but I'll also fight you about it every time . . . I'll be right here in your face.

So, next time you're about to spout off the "Big Lie", Chuck, you can bet there will be those of us here ready to refute it.

Regards,
Bill

Okay, I'll jump in and get my feet wet.

Since I live in rural Arkansas (can you say limited doctors - let alone good doctors?), I have to be extremely careful and diligent with my health care.

Luckily, I have a great general practitioner who doesn't treat me like I'm brain dead. More than once, I've diagnosed myself (through the internet and forums like this one), and taken my findings to him. He listens, we discuss the pros and cons, and take action. I got him to order my sleep study, and we were right. I got disgusted with my dermatogist after 2 years regarding a persistant rash on my face that she couldn't cure (plus I was having to drive 140 miles round trip to see this so-called specialist). I researched it, found a topical ointment that I wanted to try, and my family doctor wrote a prescription for it. Within 10 days, the rash was gone and has never returned.

As someone else wrote, doctors are simply human. Many lawyers, car mechanics, salespeople, etc, etc, etc, have the same indifferent attitudes that many doctors have. But they don't hold your well being in their hands.