The Big Lie

I recently posted the following on another thread:

. . . learn to display customary reverence to the medical profession . . . Like many mantras, with repetition, all too often those repeating it begin to believe it, or at least begin to believe that every one else believes it.

For those who may not have heard the term before, the "Big Lie" refers to a statement which, on its surface appears reasonable, yet is actually outlandish. While politics is likely the most fertile arena for these Big Lies, of concern to members of this forum is the "Big Lie" commonly used in medical practice, ad nauseum. I refer to statements of the sort that only a doctor is capable of treating you, as only a doctor has the necessary training and skills. Recently, there have even been charges of “practicing medicine without a license” here on this forum; this being, of course, just another example of the “Big Lie”,

Although used with reckless abandon throughout the healthcare industry, these statements are simply not true. To wit, I offer the following truths:
Truth #1 - Individuals are quite capable of treating themselves for any number of physical maladies, and have done so effectively for years. Can a physician improve on that? In some circumstances, yes, but in most circumstances, no. A physician, even if quite knowledgeable, simply does not have much time to devote to each individual patient. As a result, patients often do much better by educating themselves about treatment options, rather than relying on a physician. Also, it is important to remember that many people are routinely killed each year, rather than being helped, by their physicians.
Truth #2 - For most afflictions, an average patient with a few hours of study can gain more knowledge about a particular disorder than the diagnosing physician has. Granted, a physician, in order to become licensed, has to learn a lot, but that knowledge is spread so very thinly so that in any particular area a physician usually has only very scant knowledge.
Truth #3 – There is nothing illegal or unethical about rendering aid to a person who is suffering. In fact, some states mandate that of their motorists. It is also true that physicians are licensed to practice medicine. That is true. Primarily it means exactly what it says, physicians are allowed to write prescriptions for medicine. Secondarily, by law, it also means that they can charge for dispensing advice as well as prescriptions. The operative word here is “charge”. The only drawback I know of to someone offering free advice is that you might get sued by the individual you are attempting to help. That could happen, for instance, if the individual you're trying to help mistakes you for a physician (but I haven’t seen anybody here claim to be a physician, so legal recourse would seem limited).

All just my opinion, of course.

Regards,
Bill

NightHawkeye wrote:Recently, there have even been charges of “practicing medicine without a license” here on this forum; this being, of course, just another example of the “Big Lie”,

Thanks Bill, that statement you quoted stuck in my craw as well but in the interest of civility and "non-flaming" chose to forgo comment. I suppose that if I gave rein I could develop some quite vituperative rhetoric expressing my opinions about the statement and possible underlying motives in issuing it but I'll let it rest with by offering my agreement with your summary of the utter BS that can make up the "Big Lie" and saying that I think the "Big Lie" is almost always created and perpetuated by a set of proprietary interests.

Thanks again.

David

Thanks, Bill.

I agree.

Along the lines of one particular word you used in your post, this is yet another explanation of why doctors (and lawyers) use the word "PRACTICE" to describe their profession.

And, from most of my experience with both professions, they're STILL "practicing"......

Best wishes,

Den

Doctors Are The 3rd Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 225,000 Deaths Every Year

In July of 2000 there was a great article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) , one of the best articles ever written in the published literature documenting the tragedy of the traditional medical paradigm.

This information was published in JAMA which is the most widely circulated medical periodical in the world.

The author of the article is Dr. Barbara Starfield of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health and she describes how the US health care system may contribute to medical mistakes and poor health.

DEATHS PER YEAR:
12,000 - unnecessary surgery (8)
7,000 - medication errors in hospitals (9)
20,000 - other errors in hospitals (10)
80,000 - infections in hospitals (10)
106,000 - non-error, negative effects of drugs

Source:
http://www.healingdaily.com/Doctors-Are ... the-US.htm

Wulfman wrote:.... they're STILL "practicing"......

I'll add, that in my experiences, only the BEST doctors have admitted that they are still learning and practicing.

The worst ones have the air of "knowing it all, and your opinion doesn't count".

It doesn't take long to know which you can trust!

I've even heard my husband's neuro say that his original dx was incorrect! And we were happy to hear that, in more ways than one. He earned another star for that one.

Amen, NightHawkeye! You should put this in that other thread.

I think many doctors are good at diagnosing and many are good at treating-even if your MD is good-that is not a reason to defer to your physician or any health care provider:
1) Educate yourself about your condition and treatments for it
2) Track your own response to any medication or treatment prescribed
3) Trust your own "intuition" about your illness and treatment-if you think something is not going right-and your opinion get brushed aside-ask for a second opinion
4) Do not get second opinions from another MD in the same group practice
5) If your doctor doesn't listen-get a new one
YOU are the expert/specialist on YOURSELF-I can't tell you how many times people say something is wrong-get a checkup & tests-get told everything is "normal"-and get diagnosed months later. Sometimes the docs just don't know what is wrong. They rely heavily on tests to make a diagnosis-and your tests may not be abnormal early in an illness. So ask when you should come back if you are still having the same problem. Do not believe you are healthy if you feel bad and have normal tests.

Nighthawk, You are a man of amazing insight and observations.

You may just be leaving science and entering the art area or perhaps philosophy..

As a former Pharmacist, I remember shuddering everytime a patient said, "well, my doctor said...................."

Docs are people and make errors as much as the rest of us.

You are correct in that a semi literate person with a tad of curiosity can understand their condition and take charge.

Far too many docs enjoy their diety complex and never entertain the idea they could be wrong.

I could write a book on the many times I have observed wrong diagnosis and seen MANY patients die as a result of their arrogance.

I remember asking a group of docs about what specialties the most incompetent graduates practice.
It was usually 1- Psychiatry- 2- Pediatrics- 3 family practice.

I do not know how accurate this is and realize that ,many very good people practice in these specialties. I would venture that sleep docs may now just be at the revised top of this list.

Show them the MONEY, they care- for a fee. Then forget and go to the next 6 minute appointment.
I could be wrong.........
Whatever Did happen to baby Jane?

Man, Night, you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Maybe you've been done wrong by your doctors, but that doesn't mean they are all that way. Blanket statements like that are always dangerous, as there are many good and caring doctors out there.
Like ME for example! I'm a veterinarian. NOT an MD, but a DVM. Even so, I know all about those who profess we know nothing and they know all. I've been dealing with that mentality for 28 years. If you think you know all you need to know about your condition, then why use the doctor at all? Surely you could use all your research to fashion your own XPAP machine and all, right? I mean it only takes a few days on the internet or from books, right?
Excuse me for venting like this but you really don't seem to know anything about what a doctor's training is all about. Yes, it's called "practicing" because every patient (or in MY case, every SPECIES, let alone patient) is different. Why the heck do you think there are "specialties", and Board Certification? That is so we CAN be more informed and trained in certain areas.
Yes, ANYONE HUMAN, including doctors can make mistakes. There is NEVER any guarantees when it come to medicine or medical practice. I myself was misdiagnosed 2 years ago as having ulcerative colitis after several colonoscopies and exams by a Board Certified Gastroenterologist. I suffered in extreme pain and was unable to work for most of 2003 until another surgeon diagnosed my case within 5 minutes of seeing me. I actually had an easily repairable problem that healed up 2 weeks after the correct diagnosis and surgery was finally done. I know what some of what you are saying is all about. But, you have no right to accuse ALL doctors, as your statement seems to say, of being that way.
I even gave up veterinary medicine for a year and learned a whole new trade so as not go against MY morals and ethics. SOME doctors only care about the bucks and material things and vacations and such, but NOT all of us.

Tumbleweed,

First, I have the utmost respect for DVM; the schooling is far more difficult than for humans due to varied species. I believe you even go to school longer.
Ref:

A physician, even if quite knowledgeable, simply does not have much time to devote to each individual patient

.
That is an all-true fact here in PA! My own internist said it today, as the reason two specialists had not "followed through" with my treatment plan after I stated they apparently "didn't care". She is the 'director', the 'hub' of my care, but can only do so when the 'specialists' provide her with test results and their interpretations and treatment plans. I need to also get copies of these reports so that I can co-manage my healthcare.
10 years ago, the percentage of resident doctors from our fine teaching hospitals here in PA was 40. TODAY IT IS 8% !!! Why? People sueing, doctors needing more insurance, a vicious cycle. Doctors are leaving in flocks! Therefore, the remaining ones do NOT have sufficient time to spend with each patient as they would like, else others would not get seen. I do not know if there is fault in that, but I'd rather have my foot in the door than have it locked.
I did not interpret Nihthawk's statement to be directed to ALL doctors, but a venting of the ones he HAS run into. Trust me, they are out there. I was told I "just needed to learn to relax" for xx years, then FINALLY diagnosed. Luckily, no surgery had been involved, but my quality of life during that time was very lacking. (and not one of those directed me to a school for 'relaxing')

Why cannot we admit that there all people in all professions have varying degrees of capabilities, assets, interests, etc.? Only by OUR becoming more informed and educated, can we distinguish among these. It is our JOB to do that. I did NOT say to 2nd-guess the medical team, but be able to ask informed questions, and understand what's being said.
I must ask you, though, haven't you known more than one dentist, for example, yet ONE of them is your CHOICE? Because you think he/she if BETTER, or better-suited to you.
Only experience, empathy, compassion, commitment and attitude add to a framed certificate.

Tumbleweed wrote:Man, Night, you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Maybe you've been done wrong by your doctors, but that doesn't mean they are all that way. Blanket statements like that are always dangerous, as there are many good and caring doctors out there.

I have just read and re-read NightHawkeye's statement. Nowhere does he accuse ALL doctors of ANYTHING. The first occurence of "all" is where he signs off. This seems like a classic straw-man argument, you are rebutting something that was never even suggested. In fact you seem to miss the point entirely, that many individuals are competent to assess their own health and medical condition and to share that knowledge freely, and have a perfect legal right to do so. He also suggests that some patients develop a better working knowledge of their own medical situation and might actually know what's best for themselves. What a SURPRISE!

Since you are a veterinarian, I'm glad you hold yourself to high moral and ethical standards, and I wouldn't expect that your "patients" get especially involved with their treatment and develop a deep understanding of the dynamics of their underlying condition. But puhleeeeeeeeeze don't put us in the same category. Bill's only real point was that previous remarks to the effect that "we are all stupid animals and only our doctor knows what's good for us and that by discussing and sharing medical information we are practicing medicine without a license" (typical DME chatter), are not only insulting but entirely unwarranted. Nowhere did he make any blanket statements that impugn the competence of the entire medical profession as a whole, "all doctors are..." whatever, as you suggest. Truth is, yes, some patients really DO know what works best for themselves, better than their own doctor who sees them, what, 6 minutes twice a year, and has what, maybe a dozen "sleep disorder" patients total, all different. Even if he has a thousand, unless you can convince me that my doctor routinely consults with the angel Gabriel, I am still entitled to my own opinion. The "trust and obey" philosophy is kind of "old-schoolish" wouldn't you agree?

As for doctors directly or indirectly causing the untimely demise of an estimated 220,000 or so "patients" a year, let's keep that in perspective also. That's a mere 600 or so people a day. Think about it. That's only one about every two-and-a-half minutes.

So where's the beef?

-HKS

Tumbleweed wrote:Man, Night, you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Maybe you've been done wrong by your doctors, but that doesn't mean they are all that way. Blanket statements like that are always dangerous, as there are many good and caring doctors out there.

Well, Tumblewood, I'm not sure where you come off with that accusation, because I made no such statement about physicians. In fact, you haven't even stated what blanket accusation you think I made. What I said was:

NightHawkeye wrote:I refer to statements of the sort that only a doctor is capable of treating you, as only a doctor has the necessary training and skills.

This statement, and its ilk, are what I elaborated on. This "Big Lie" is omnipresent throughout the medical community, but it is simply NOT TRUE. That was the point of my post.

Now, since you have made an assumption of what I think about physicians, I will respond to that matter as well. Physicians have not attempted to stop this "Big Lie". So, I'll simply ask you, Tumblewood, why has the AMA, which represents physicians in this country, allowed this untruth to continue to be promulgated? Rather than jump to conclusions, I'd much appreciate it if you could provide the answer for us, because you are much closer to the source than I am.

Regards,
Bill

Excuse me for venting like this but you really don't seem to know anything about what a doctor's training is all about.

WOW you should see your doctor, sounds like you may have Intermitted Explosive Disorder (IED) to me.

Hey don't ask me what it means, I just saw it on the news.

harikarishimari wrote: Bill's only real point was that previous remarks to the effect that "we are all stupid animals and only our doctor knows what's good for us and that by discussing and sharing medical information we are practicing medicine without a license" (typical DME chatter), are not only insulting but entirely unwarranted.

harikarishimari wrote:Nowhere did he make any blanket statements that impugn the competence of the entire medical profession as a whole,

I just wanted to add that those two statements one right after the other really cracked me up.

WOW you should see your doctor, sounds like you may have Intermitted Explosive Disorder (IED) to me.

Hey don't ask me what it means, I just saw it on the news.

I think you just made an excellent diagnosis!!!

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