Update on statins

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RestedRebel
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Re: Update on statins

Post by RestedRebel » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:46 am

Janknitz wrote:I'm interested in your entire cholesterol profile--HDL and Triglycerides, too. Are you willing to share them?

As others have pointed out, total and LDL cholesterol are not good predictors of cardiovascular risk. About 50% of people who have a heart attack or stroke have high total and LDL cholesterol, but that means 50% have LOW total and LDL cholesterol. So do you really accomplish anything by having low total and LDL cholesterol?

As we age, our cholesterol should increase, and studies have shown that higher total and LDL numbers are PROTECTIVE when we age. All cause mortality--death from cancer, infection, and other illnesses, increase as cholesterol decreases as cholesterol increases, while cardiac deaths don't really increase as cholesterol increases (The drug companies make the relative risk increase sounds very dramatic, but the absolute increase in cardiac deaths is VERY LOW--a fraction of 1% for someone with higher cholesterol who has not already had a heart attack). Hmmm. . .

For a fascinating way to look at this, consider the "numbers needed to treat" (NNT)--how many people have to take a drug for how long so that a heart attack will be prevented? According to this http://www.thennt.com/nnt/statins-for-h ... t-disease/ 60 people have to take a statin drug for 5 years to prevent 1 heart attack. Meanwhile, 1 in 50 of those same people developed diabetes and 1 in 10 had other harms like muscle damage. (Hey, wait, Isn't the heart a muscle???).

It's important to look at your cholesterol panel ratios. In particular, a study by Harvard Medical School back in 1997 said that those with a higher ratio of triglycerides to HDL had 16 times the risk of heart attack as those with the lowest ratio of triglycerides to HDL. http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/96/8/2520.abstract

I suspect from the fruit you eat and your daily bowl of oatmeal, your triglycerides are probably high. You want that ratio of triglycerides to HDL to be below 2.0. You say you "avoid sugar"--but fruit and oatmeal ARE sugar--enzymes in our mouth immediately begin to break down the starch in things like oatmeal into simple sugars, while fruit is sweet because it contains fructose and glucose. These are carbohydrates. Carbohydrate intake is directly related to HDL so if your HDL is high (lab norms say below 100 is good, but it really should be below 50 and HDL should be above 60 for a man), then you might consider reducing (you don't have to completely eliminate it) the fruit you eat. Fish oil will help bring your HDL up. Good quality fish oil does not smell or cause fish burps. Trader Joe's brand is very reasonably price, and I've punctured the capsules to smell to be sure the fish oil is not rancid.

There are some very good studies that have shown that dietary saturated fat does NOT increase dietary cholesterol. So I doubt very much it was the butter and cream your dad succumbed to, more likely his inactivity you mention and possibly he ate too much sugar along with his butter and cream? You should not fear egg yolks or butter from pastured animals. They contain vital nutrients you can't get very well elsewhere. Egg YOLKS are a good source of Vitamin A and choline--90% of Americans are deficient in choline. Butter (from pastured cows) contains vitamin K2, which prevents heart disease by making sure the calcium in your body stays in your bones instead of in your bloodstream. It is much more likely to prevent cardiovascular disease than the statins you take. If you aren't eating saturated fats like egg yolks and butter, you may be eating soy and vegetable oils which are highly inflammatory and inflammation causes--heart disease...

You sound like you are on the right track. In your place, I would replace some of your fruit servings of non-starchy vegetables (they taste a lot better with BUTTER on them!) and find something besides oatmeal to eat for breakfast (BTW, oatmeal is only good at reducing cholesterol COMPARED to other crappy breakfast cereals. It is not an effective cholesterol reducer--otherwise they'd be prescribing that instead of statins). How about real, whole eggs?

Beware, that if you manage to get your HDL up, your total cholesterol will go up because of it (HDL is part of the equation for determining total cholesterol). Your doctor will think that's a bad thing and want to give you MORE statins. But hopefully by then you will understand that increased HDL and decreased triglycerides are a good thing, your LDL and total are not dangerous, and it makes no sense to use a drug to reverse good health.

Two videos you may find very informative:
How Bad Science and Big Business Created the Obesity Epidemic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vr-c8GeT34
Fathead, the Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs (This one is funny, too!)
My total cholesterol level is 196. My HDL is 60. My LDL is 123, and my Triglycerides are 63. I'll admit I am totally confused by this because my doctor told me 3 months agao that if my cholesterol stayed under 200, he would not put me back on the statin, yet he did. I don't eat refined, processed sugar, but you are correct that I do watch how much fruit and starch I eat. My dietician gave me guidelines to follow, and I use the portion sizes she recommended. I would also add that I'd been advised to eat veggies (no starchy) if I'm hungry. Keep in mind I eat roughly 1100-1200 calories a day at this point in time. I also happen to like oatmeal, and since I have to have some kind of starch or whole grain, I tend to gravitate toward oatmeal or popcorn for my whole grains/starch. I feel better when I eat them than when I don't. As for eggs, I just really don't like them that much, although my dermatologist told me to eat more eggs, and yes, she recommended the whole egg too. I also eat a serving of walnuts each and every day because my dietician told me they protect the heart. If I can't eat tuna more than once a week, I need to eat something else, as I' not totally convinced that fish oil capsules are beneficial for me.

Also, when I had my gallbladder surgery in May, the anesthesiologist told me that according to my EKG, I had had a mild heart attack sometime in the past - so mild that I didn't even know when or where I had it.

It's just confusing to me, and I have sent an e-mail to my doctor for some kind of clarification. I will also watch those videos and see what clarification they can give me as well.

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Re: Update on statins

Post by Woody » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:47 am

Lots of new research is calling for the recommendation of keeping your cholesterol under 200
just plane wrong. And now they know that LDL cholesterol comes in different particle size
and it's only the small particles that are harmful. You on the other hand with that triglyceride
reading of 63 probably have the large fluffy kind of LDL which are not harmful after all. I would
go with the advice of the dermatologist and eat whole eggs. I on the other hand have a total cholesterol
of 162 and am worried because this puts me at a higher risk of death than if it were between
190 and 220. I need to really eat more saturated fat.

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Re: Update on statins

Post by BlackSpinner » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:22 am

Replace your tuna with mackerel and/or salmon. There are more fish in the sea then just tuna.

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bryansong
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Re: Update on statins

Post by bryansong » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:24 am

[quote="Janknitz"]I'm interested in your entire cholesterol profile--HDL and Triglycerides, too. Are you willing to share them?

For a fascinating way to look at this, consider the "numbers needed to treat" (NNT)--how many people have to take a drug for how long so that a heart attack will be prevented? According to this http://www.thennt.com/nnt/statins-for-h ... t-disease/ 60 people have to take a statin drug for 5 years to prevent 1 heart attack. Meanwhile, 1 in 50 of those same people developed diabetes and 1 in 10 had other harms like muscle damage. (Hey, wait, Isn't the heart a muscle???).

I had a problem with just a short term use of simvastatin and I think it caused me permanient nerve damage. I am still trying to get help for 3 years after I quit taking it.
I started having severe foot and leg pain after taking it for just a few months. On my next exam the doctor took blood to check cholesterol. The nurse called to tell me my muscle function
had shot way up and to stop taking the statin. I did a little research to find it was my CPK (I think), muscle test that's done that if elevated indicates dying muscle or something like that.

My doctor thinks my pain is just sciatica and that she didn't think the statin would cause that but I am not so sure. Why did I have the high CPK level and coinciding with all the pain?
I have been through 2 rounds of physical therapy in the last three years with the latest therapy ending in early January. I now have an appointment with a Neurologist this coming Tuesday.
I'll tell that doctor my story and see what's next.

Bryan

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Thellra
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Re: Update on statins

Post by Thellra » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:54 am

RestedRebel wrote:
I sincerely hope that experiment works better for you than it did for me. I was off the meds for 3 months and my cholesterol shot up, so I'm back on the meds. But, at least I got to eat grapefruit for a while. Regardless of whether or not it works, you're eating right and should feel great. That in itself is its own reward. The rest is just icing on the cake.

There are non grapefruit statins available if that's important to you!

RestedRebel
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Re: Update on statins

Post by RestedRebel » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:14 am

BlackSpinner wrote:Replace your tuna with mackerel and/or salmon. There are more fish in the sea then just tuna.
I did. My dietician told me you still have to be careful with fish because of all the pollution in our oceans. But yes, I love salmon and that's the direction I will take. If one thing doesn't kill me, the other will. Since I like salmon, I'll eat that.

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Re: Update on statins

Post by Janknitz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:28 am

RR, your numbers are great! And here's something to consider-- the LDL is a CALCULATED value, not counted. They use something called the Friedenwald formula. But the Friedenwald formula is INACCURATE when trigs fall below 100. Your trigs are well below 100. Your doctor is treating a number that does not accurately reflect your Real LDL. There's another formula called the Iranian formula that can give a more accurate LDL count.

Maybe your doctor had a visit from the statin fairy (aka the drug rep) right before she saw you, because it's the statin fairy's job to convince doctors that EVERYONE needs a statin.

My husband was being evaluated for pain treatment for a herniated disk. The pharmacist expressed concern over his cholesterol numbers. I think his total cholesterol is about 220. Sure, that might seem high (if you believe the lipid theory crowd) unless you pay attention to the fact that his HDL is 98 (!) and his trigs are 37.

If you did indeed have a mild heart attack you would fall in that very small group of men (no study shows true benefit for women) who MAY benefit from statins (men over age 65 who have had a cardiac event) but maybe that heart attack was 135 pounds ago (you lost an entire person!) when you had many risk factors, none of which was a statin deficit.

The lipid theory is giving way to the inflammation theory. Drug companies are trying to convince us that there is an anti-inflammatory effect from statins. But your healthy diet and lifestyle are far more effective than the statin can ever be.

Btw, if you stay on the statin, you really should be taking Co enzyme Q 10. Read this: http://www.westonaprice.org/cardiovascu ... thy-hearts

Smaller fish have less mercury contamination than large ones (because the higher on the food chain, the more other fish they eat). So eat sardines and smelt.
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Re: Update on statins

Post by Janknitz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:00 pm

This sums up the NNT nicely for statins: http://www.drbriffa.com/2014/02/14/its- ... +Health%29
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Re: Update on statins

Post by bryansong » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:30 pm

Janknitz wrote:This sums up the NNT nicely for statins: http://www.drbriffa.com/2014/02/14/its- ... +Health%29

Thank you!!!

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Re: Update on statins

Post by Julie » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:13 pm

And he didn't even mention that statins seem not to be effective in women anyway - they may be effective in lowering cholesterol, but that doesn't translate to saving any women, only a few men.

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Re: Update on statins

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:01 pm

bryansong wrote:I started having severe foot and leg pain after taking it for just a few months. On my next exam the doctor took blood to check cholesterol. The nurse called to tell me my muscle function
had shot way up and to stop taking the statin. I did a little research to find it was my CPK (I think), muscle test that's done that if elevated indicates dying muscle or something like that. Bryan
Wow, I just remembered that the aching pain in the left arch of my left foot went away after I dropped statins for a 3 month 'vacation' (as approved by my GP). It used to get painful at night and I had to use a latex ankle wrap while sleeping to keep my left foot in a 'pulled up' position. Like a dimwit, I didn't make the connection until now when I read your reply. Hmmm... that's got me thinking. Note: see my earlier reply for the context of this comment.

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Re: Update on statins

Post by Janknitz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:55 pm

It might also have been a coincidence--that sounds like Plantar fasciitis. But interesting that the pain went away when you stopped the statin.
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Re: Update on statins

Post by OboeVet » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:27 pm

Some if us react well to Red Yeast Rice in lowering cholesterol. My Harvard MD has me on. 4,000 mg per day at bedtime. Too many docs like Rx's no matter what side effects.

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Re: Update on statins

Post by 49er » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:53 am

I had a problem with just a short term use of simvastatin and I think it caused me permanient nerve damage. I am still trying to get help for 3 years after I quit taking it.
I started having severe foot and leg pain after taking it for just a few months. On my next exam the doctor took blood to check cholesterol. The nurse called to tell me my muscle function
had shot way up and to stop taking the statin. I did a little research to find it was my CPK (I think), muscle test that's done that if elevated indicates dying muscle or something like that.

My doctor thinks my pain is just sciatica and that she didn't think the statin would cause that but I am not so sure. Why did I have the high CPK level and coinciding with all the pain?
I have been through 2 rounds of physical therapy in the last three years with the latest therapy ending in early January. I now have an appointment with a Neurologist this coming Tuesday.
I'll tell that doctor my story and see what's next.
Sheesh, why do doctors constantly deny that drugs cause side effects? I know causation doesn't equal correlation but if you didn't have any pain before starting the drug, it seems like it should be suspect number one.

Sorry, you are going through this. I hope you feel better.

My apologies for getting off topic but what I feel is a common practice of doctors denying side effects really bothers me.

49er

RestedRebel
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Re: Update on statins

Post by RestedRebel » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:47 am

Janknitz wrote: The lipid theory is giving way to the inflammation theory. Drug companies are trying to convince us that there is an anti-inflammatory effect from statins. But your healthy diet and lifestyle are far more effective than the statin can ever be.
I agree with you here and find that the dieticians I work with at the hospital also believe in the theory of inflammation and that it relates to processed sugar in our diet. However, they also play it safe because those in the program have a weight problem and will tend to put it back on quickly and with a vengeance, which is why they focus more on healthy protein, less sugar, and less fat in the diet. However, I have always believed that a little butter (moderation again) is fine. And let's face it, even if we stay away from refined sugar, it still can be found in all kinds of food we eat if we eat anything from a box, which I try not to do.

With regards to artificial sweeteners for coffee and the like, both my GP and my dermatologist recommended Stevia over Splenda and said to use artificial sweeteners in moderation as well. Other than artificially sweetened coffee, I tend to drink water, so I'm okay with the artificial sweetener.

And, yes, I've decided I can eat whole eggs, which, let's face it, are tastier than those bland egg whites.