The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

fuzzy96 · Post by **fuzzy96** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:04 pm

hmmmmm..... sorry i seen this thread and the date of '06 and all i could think of is wasn't that the year broke-back mounting came out?

lol

roster · Post by **roster** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:51 pm

fuzzy96 wrote:hmmmmm..... sorry i seen this thread and the date of '06 and all i could think of is wasn't that the year broke-back mounting came out?

lol

fuzzy96 · Post by **fuzzy96** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:00 pm

good one rooster lol

roster · Post by **roster** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:10 pm

Now a serious question, seriously.

Ain't some of these things in Ayr Gel potentially just as dangerous to the lungs as petroleum jelly?

Water, methyl gluceth-10, propylene glycol, glycerin, glyceryl polymethacrylate, triethanolamine, aloe barbadensis leaf juice (aloe vera gel), PEG/PPG-18/18 dimethicone, carbomer, poloxamer 184, sodium chloride, xanthan gum, diazolidinyl urea, methylparaben, propylparaben, glycine soja (soybean) oil, geranium maculatum oil, tocopheryl acetate, blue 1.

Glycerin? Propylene glycol? Chicken wire so-and-so?

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:45 pm

Kristen Leigh Bell, a certified aromatherapist, author of Holistic Aromatherapy for Animals: A Comprehensive Guide to the Use of Essential Oils & Hydrosols with Animals, in an exchange on another forum:

Whitefoot wrote:Hi Kristen, If we promise to buy the book will you give us an abstract on this? ) Seriously... I don't have that much interest in using EOs on my cats, as other therapeutic modalities probably suffice. What I want to know is should I be feeling guilty/anxious about having EOs on the premises at all? (One-bedroom apartment in my case.) For instance, this morning I opened a new blend of neroli and marjoram to scent my liquid bath soap, and I can still smell it in the kitchen near the pantry where I keep my EOs. I wonder if this lingering scent will harm my cats. Or drops of oil added to a burning candle... or the rose dilution I use for perfume... or the lavender I put on at bedtime. Where is the line, I wonder? I hope you can shed a bit of light on that question for us.

Kristen Bell wrote:Sure.... Cats and essential oils are a potentially dangerous combination for several reasons. Cats differ greatly from dogs in how they metabolize and excrete certain substances from their bodies. Veterinarians take great precautions in prescribing medications to cats, for even something as simple as aspirin can be toxic. The reason for this sensitivity can be found in their liver. Cats do not have the necessary enzymes to break down certain substances and effectively excrete them. This leads to the buildup of toxins in their bodies. Dr. Safdar Khan DVM, a Veterinary Toxicologist with the National Animal Poison Control Center tells us that Cats are known to be deficient in their ability to eliminate compounds through hepatic glucuronidation (they lack enzyme glucuronyl tranferases). Glucuronidation is an important detoxification mechanism present in most animals except cats. Lack of this important detoxification mechanism in cats may result in slower elimination of certain compounds and thus build up of the toxic metabolites in the body causing toxicity. This buildup of toxic metabolites can be the result of any numerous substances cats may be exposed to, be they traditional allopathic medications (such as aspirin), herbs, or essential oils. This toxin buildup does not always manifest itself immediately in cats. Depending on the cat and what they have been exposed to, it can show up in hours, days, weeks, months or even years. What is even more frightening, is that your cat can't tell you how they feel or what is going on. If you were to develop symptoms of toxicity from over-exposure to essential oils, you would feel lightheaded, nauseous, clumsy, tired, headachy and generally lousy. You might vomit, have diarrhea, sluggish and uncoordinated movement, slurred speech or confusion, depending on how much and which essential oil you were exposed to. Veterinarians see many cases of what they call mystery poisoning in cats. The owner arrives at the vet's office with a pet who is despondent, clumsy and uncoordinated, sometimes partially paralyzed, vomiting, drooling and in a daze. The cat is treated for poisoning, given ample fluids, and kept under supervision for several days before being released. But not all cats are released. Some die. And sometimes, essential oils are to blame. A simple run of bloodwork on a cat showing such symptoms of toxicity almost always reveals highly elevated liver enzymes. Unfortunately, cats inability to fully excrete the toxins from their bodies means that they stay there, resulting in permanently elevated enzyme levels and varying degrees of impaired liver function. Cats also have very delicate and thin skin and don't like strong odors. These two aspects pale in comparison to the life-threatening and impairing possibilities associated with the repeated use of certain essential oils. If you love aromatherapy, you most surely use the oils in a variety of ways in your home, on yourself and family members. You bathe with them, spray or diffuse them in the air, apply natural perfumes, lotions and hair products. If these contain essential oils, then they are contributing to your cats exposure. While you can't eliminate your use of essential-oil containing products completely, you can minimize exposure. After all, it would be silly to forgo the use of essential oil containing products and return to the use of synthetic detergents, cleaning supplies and toiletry items made with petrochemicals and fragrance oils. The best choice for your health, and the wellness of the planet is obvious. Natural products containing essential oils. Just make sure to respect your cat when you use them. If you diffuse essential oils, don't keep your cat enclosed in the room with the diffuser. Open a window and provide ventilation. If you apply oils to your dogs, keep the cats away for at least an hour. Same goes for yourself. You can't eliminate exposure, but you can responsibly minimize it, thus decreasing the chance that any level of essential oils will quickly build up in your cat's system.

SAG

roster · Post by **roster** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:17 am

I have never been a fan of EOs. Until now! They kill cats! Good stuff!

MrSandman · Post by **MrSandman** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:14 am

rooster wrote:I have never been a fan of EOs. Until now! They kill cats! Good stuff!

Rooster - Don't make me open a can of

Thanks for the info SAG

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:23 am

Other groups that must avoid essential oil inhalation are women who are pregnant or are planning to get pregnant, as well as infants:

another blog wrote:My name is Sharron Myers. I am a certified aromatherapist.

I would just like to make sure that people realize that they should NEVER use Peppermint or Spearmint Essential Oil on a Baby!

Using Essential Oils with babies must be very well researched before you attempt to use essential oils on your child.

Thanks
Sharron Myers

http://www.serenearomatherapy.com

And you should probably add patients with underlying lung disease (COPD, asthma, etc.) as well.

Also, an issue that I see surrounding

The Safety of PurSleep; or

The Danger of PurSleep; or

The Hazards of PurSleep

is hidden in the confusion surrounding "safety" and "safe handing" because of the morphing of the preparation in question. Essential oils can be "safely handled" if they are diluted in a carrier oil. And if PurSleep has "carrier oils", then the whole "exogenous lipoid pneumonia" discussion would come into play. I would love to see the original MSDS sheets on those products to really see how "pure" is "Pur". The Missouri Thing.

But if Pur is pure (and I suppose there's no reason that it shouldn't be), then the really important issue that I see surrounding

The Safety of PurSleep; or

The Danger of PurSleep; or

The Hazards of PurSleep

concerns exposure time, or more importantly, Permissable Exposure Limit (PEL), the maximum allowable safe contact time. Pure essential oils have a number of cautions, typically

Avoid contact of essential oils with the skin as they can cause irritation. Using latex gloves and wearing protective glasses is recommended when handling essential oils. Essential oils must never be used internally. For application to the skin, dilute the essential oil with a good quality carrier oil.

And again, the Goel Study had 2 minutes of contact time x4 with container held at chest level.

This PurSleep thing increases exposure time 50-fold with a pressure driven device. So now I'm thinking, if you need to

Avoid contact of essential oils with the skin as they can cause irritation. Using latex gloves and wearing protective glasses is recommended when handling essential oils. Essential oils must never be used internally.

and now we're doing "shotguns" with this thing all night, the cumulative effect of doing this 2500 hours a year should be doing something, and frankly I don't see how that something could be anything good, because the delicate lung membranes are a heckuva lot more susceptible to chemical agents than plain old skin.

Anyway, chemical pneumonitis and chronic lung changes are easy enough to monitor. Keep an eye on the aforementioned parameters:

1. Change in oximetry trend (mean reading during night, spot check during day). Baseline and follow-ups may be obtained from original PSGs, serial PSGs and/or self-monitoring.
2. Change in screening spirometry values.
3. Change in complete Pulmonary Function Testing (PFT) values, particularly diffusion.
4. Symptomatic change in pulmonary function, as in decreased ability of aerobic exercise or increased shortness of breath on exertion.

Or get a cat.

SAG

MrSandman · Post by **MrSandman** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:11 pm

Great information SAG.

I just commend SAG for posting his concern for essential oils in this environment of a lovefest for pursleep products.

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:29 am

Here is an interesting background article on Exogenous Lipoid Pneumonia from 2003

http://www.bahrainmedicalbulletin.com/m ... lipoid.pdf

which unfortunately is COMPLETELY PLAGIARIZED from the classic article

Exogenous lipoid pneumonia, Arch Intern Med. 1994 Mar 28;154(6):686-92, Spickard A 3rd, Hirschmann JV.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8129503

published in 1994.

I wonder if Dr. Spickard ever "Googles" himself.

Dr. Spickard

Dr. Spickard

Dr. Spickard

Dr. Spickard

Dr. Spickard

Sometimes I think 2012 can't come fast enough.

SAG

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:15 am

While you're waiting for the Sunday paper to show up:

The Story of Gary Young, Young Living and Other Fun Stuff

Today's Word Puzzle: Use the following 3 things in a sentence: Highly concentrated essential oil, mask leak, eye contact.

Tomorrow's Emergency Medical Care Solution: Which will allow some time to figure out exactly what needs to be done (unless you got the problem today, in which case you're probably SOL).

These guys say

Essential oils have to be kept away from contact with the eyes. If you get some essential oils in your eye - you must wash your eye out with irrigated sterile isotonic solution. In fact, any place where you are having your aromatherapy treatment should have an emergency eye-wash station.

Wash your eye out for 15 minutes then seek medical attention as soon as possible.

But then these guys (like we're gonna believe them) say

Avoid eye contact. In case of accidental contact, put a few drops of any pure vegetable oil in the eye and call your doctor if necessary. Never use water to dilute an essential oil.

So now we got the infamous "oil and water" enigma. Yet they do provide

Another Helpful Household Tip:

If an essential oil is accidentally spilt on furniture, then it is likely to remove the finish on the furniture due to its terpinic nature. So, you must endeavor to remove it as fast as possible with a tissue.

Fortunately, delicate lung membranes are not made out of polyurethane.

SAG

Keywords: PurSleep, CPAP, "pur sleep", Obama, Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, Freida Pinto, Facebook

ozij · Post by **ozij** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:54 pm

From the first source:

5.) Finally, there are essential oils used in what is called aromatherapy. There is no evidence that even used in this manner, they have real clinical significance, except perhaps in relaxation.

And:

"Appropriate warnings" is the most important issue. There is nothing wrong with selling many of our most hazardous oils for non-contact uses. However, I consider it unscrupulous not to warn people that these products should not be applied to the skin.

I don't apply essential oils to my skin, (Pur-sleep has the warning, by the way) nor am I using them for anything but the pleasant smell, which helps me relax. Certainly not for any medicinal purposes.

There are many liquids and objects that when use wrongly may cause harm: Balsamic vinegar in you eyes or on your furniture? Coffee spilled on you computer keyboard? How about the fact that sharp knives, in children's hand can cause greivous harm? A scalpel can be used for murder as well a life saveing surgery - does that mean scalpels should not be used?

I respect your knowledge SAG, and you've got me truly worried. I want to continue using the oils for relaxation - I do not want to cause myself long term harm. Please explain to me what happens in the word of physics, when I put two drops of essential oil on a peice of fabric, and then place that fabric at the other side of my cpap machine. There are two filters between me and the air coming into my lungs. Are you implying that the mere fact I get the smell means I'm letting harmful fat molecules into my lungs? Do you have sources about the physics and chemistry of smelling? I'm not very intersted in cats, dogs, and EO massages.

Again, from the first source:

Here in Britain and in Europe, we have stringent laws that control what can or can not be sold, as well as what medicinal claims can be made. It is an offence under our Trading Standards regulations, to place any product on the market, if appropriate warnings are not attached to the product. Despite that, many traders here do still ignore this important piece of consumer protection legislation.

In the USA and Canada, you either do not have such legislation, or it is being widely ignored. I have heard it said on several occasions that you prefer to rely on "individual responsibility". Well how can a member of the public be expected to ascertain if an essential oil may be dangerous or not. This is particularly important when you consider that half the so-called aromatherapists around, don’t have adequate knowledge themselves of such matters

And yet you asked "Certified Aromatherapists" (cetified by who?) who asked "their mentors" about pur-sleep - and not to certified pulmonologists, or chemist. Why? I would be very interested in a analysis based on what happens to the EOs the way I use the, not on what happens when people place drops of the EO's in their cat's ears.

Finally: can you recommend a safe way of adding pleasant smell to a cpap system?

Thank you,
O.

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:17 am

ozij wrote:And yet you asked "Certified Aromatherapists" (cetified by who?)

o., I luv ya, but can you please run the Spell-Check?

Certified Clinical Aromatherapy Practitioner (CCAP)

ozij wrote:and not to certified pulmonologists

OK, I'll ask today. They may not know "essential oils" per se, so I'll bring in the MSDS sheets. Let's see, Class 3 FL, I wonder what the heck that means...

Class 3 – Flammable Liquids – Liquids having a flash point of = 60.5º C (141º F). Some examples are acetone, alcohols, benzene, diesel fuel, fuel oil, gasoline, kerosene, methanol, and petroleum oil.

Many of the common essential oils such as tea tree, lavender, and citrus oils are classed as a Class 3 Flammable Liquid as they have a flash point of 50-60 °C.

Hmmm. I guess I'll have to word that carefully so they don't come up with "the quick answer" (like, "Are you crazy?)

ozij wrote:Do you have sources about the physics and chemistry of smelling?

I'm not sure what you mean there, o. I think CAM in general and aromatherapy as a part of that are great, especially in the treatment of sleep disorders. However, (at least) two significant adverse effects must be researched-- damage to the alveolar capillary membrane, which may result in diffusional impairment, and hypersensitivity reaction, which may result in extrinsic asthma. That boy was able to bypass the FDA by sticking it behind the machine, but don't forget, the first version (in-line adminstration) got closed down. Although I would think the burden of proof would be him proving that mode of adminstration is safe, and not me proving it's dangerous, I am certainly happy to offer some things to look for (but seriously, if you wake up and see a dead cat, doesn't that at least make you think?)

Towards that end, the SAG FAQ:

How long do you think it will take for interstitial lung changes to appear?
That's hard to say, but I think I'd be looking at about 5 years. It would be very helpful to get baseline Complete Pulmonary Function Tests (with Diffusion) and Chest X-Ray to accurately monitor this.

So why don't you just wait 5 years and then start your rant?
"Because I told you so" isn't quite as rewarding as it used to be.

Why are you a lunatic about this?
Because interstitial fibrosis is without a doubt the most horrible way to die.

So you're saying that everyone who uses PurSleep is going to get interstitial fibrosis?
I don't know if anyone is going to get interstitial fibrosis. Tracking 50-100 people over the next 5 years should shed some light on this. But even if one person does get interstitial fibrosis, and I have not done my part to explain what I feel are the potential dangers, then while

"Because I told you so" isn't quite as rewarding as it used to be.

at least I hope to feel some absolution in that I tried.

And if there's a bunch of people with documented deteriorating diffusions on PFTs then it will take about 2 seconds for the Mesothelioma Vultures to start circling overhead.

SAG

ozij · Post by **ozij** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:39 am

StillAnotherGuest wrote:(but seriously, if you wake up and see a dead cat, doesn't that at least make you think?).

Seriously - no.
A cat has neither my physiology nor my size, its liver (according to one of your sources) is very different from the human liver, and its size, relative to me is also very different - perfectly safe and tested medication is prescribed according a person's weight, so a dead cat, as far as I'm concerned, is neither here nor there.

Alcoholic drinks are flammable too - does that mean people should not drink them? So yes, you will have to word that question carefully - and explain exactly how the oils are used. The MSDS may not be the most relevant info....

I don't need you to prove Pur-Sleep is dangerous - I need your help in understanding the risk I'm taking - as I said, I'm taking your warnings very seriously. Instead of waiting 5 or so years to say "Oh my gosh, I should have been more careful" I want to know what I'm going into now. I understand you're saying, now and not in 5 years "look guys and gals, you're breathing something - take care" which may absolve you, but still leaves me without enough info to decide.

Shouldn't there be a rather easy way of checking how much (if any) of whatever harmful stuff it is comes out at other end of the mask? For instance, have the essence laden air blown into a chamber and analysed? I'd like some info on that before I volunteer to find out in 5 years, after the fact the my lungs were affected. It wasn't' the cigarette companies who proved they were hazardous to you health - nor did they prove they were healthy, so I'm not expecting to get proof of anything from SleepGuy.
Suppose we set up this lab experiment: Pur-Sleep, machine, filters various pressures, air analysis: what would you want us to look at in this analysis? which lab findings do would indicate - "keep away from that!!!"? which would mean: "OK if you're otherwise healthy" and which would mean "no problem"? There must be a better way of approaching this than either cats, or humans as lab rats... (hmmm. cats as lab rats... but you know what I mean... ). People published papers benchmarking CPAP machines - why not a paper (or 2 or 3) about the air the comes out of the mask when there are essential oils outside the machine? (By the way, that's a generic "we" - I'm not remotely connected with any lab that could do this...). Don't you have any colleagues that might be interested in doing this? Somebody in need of tenure Anyone else out there who know someone who can pick the glove?

And seriously SAG (well, I was serious about the above experiment too) can you recommend a different way of introducing pleasant smells into the the system?

And while we're being worried: How concerned should I be about the cloudy soap residue left inside the Headrest nasal seal after I wash it - even with Dr. Bonner organic soap?

About the spell-checker Sometime composing the post takes me so long that I loose my patience... and I was on the ancient oh so slow laptop... but your right of course. My apologies to everyone for mangling your spelling (I tend to do that in my own language as well.... )

...Speaking of hindsight, one of my favorite dialogues was written by Douglas Adams and went something like this:
Ford Perfect ( I think it was he) in a crisis: " I should have listened to what my mother told me!!!"
Friend: "What did she tell you?"
FP: I don't know, I wasn't listening!!!

I'm listening very carefully SAG, let's keep the discussion going.
O.

roster · Post by **roster** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:10 am

I like this discussion. Don't forget about the cost/benefit proposition. Typically people overlook the "cost" side but this discussion has focused on the cost. Cost is the potential damage from inhaling EOs.

Don't forget about the benefit side which is reportedly relaxation, more hours of sleep, and maybe better sleep architecture?

Which will kill you first? Lung damage from inhaling EOs or lack of sleep?

I don't use EOs but I do have experience with lack of sleep and it will make for a miserable life.

The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

The Great Vaseline™ __________ of '06

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

A Canary In The Coal Mine?

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

How Much Is Too Much?

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire

The Great Essential Oil Conspiracy of '09 (Continued)

Re: The Great Essential Oil Conspiracy of '09 (Continued)

Ask Now, Not Later...

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06

Re: The Great Vaseline™ Conspiracy of '06