OT: Sugar and lies

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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idamtnboy
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by idamtnboy » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:20 pm

Boyce wrote:
That's why we need and have regulation.
I read the last three pages of posts and not a single person called for no regulation. You afraid someone is pushing for a society without protection of rights? Or just an easy way to argue against capitalism and markets?
I admit to making a generalization based upon the tenor of some of the comments in this thread, and the actual comments made in many threads over the past year or so.

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Boyce
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by Boyce » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:13 pm

jnk wrote:
I trust your judgment for your purchases, but not for mine.
That is the point! I absolutely agree that you should have very little trust in my judgment for your purchases. I am that stranger you spoke about offering you advice at no charge. Any advice I give to you should be highly suspect. I don't expect anything of value (maybe a little self satisfaction) from advising you well.

On the other hand, were I in business advising people on purchases and charging a fee or commission, with my livelihood depending on giving good advice and maintaining a reputation in the market for giving good advice, then the entire situation changes. You should get references and check my reputation. You should check my contract and my guarantees. If you give me a contract my history should show I will go to work for you in earnest and bring the value you expect to the table.

The latter is capitalism and a market. The former is at best what? Philanthropy? At worst? Dabbling?

I had to laugh recently when a friend in my Bible study class sustained an injury and was laid up for some weeks. He had always personally maintained a very good lawn and landscape. A few in the class volunteered to go over on Saturday to mow his lawn and trim his shrubbery. Being the closest to him, I was asked to set it up. I knew exactly what was coming. He told me he knew what kind of job this philanthropic labor would do - come for a few hours, minimize their effort and make a big fuss over what a good deed they were doing for him. He said to tell them he appreciated the offer but had already contracted with a company to do it. He expected it to be done right so he contracted with someone whose livelihood depended on making him happy.

Goods and services - all the good ones come from people who want to make money providing them.

When was the last time that nice stranger who was not trying to sell you something caused a nice furnace to be installed in your house or gave you an excellent gall bladder surgery?

Capitalism and markets rule!

Having a finger wave to check my prostate for enlargement? I don't want someone who charges nothing and just does it for the fun and the philanthropy. Give me someone who charges to do it. Please!
Boyce

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Boyce
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by Boyce » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:26 pm

idamtnboy wrote:
You'd be surprised.

No I would not. I am not surprised that someone does a shitty job installing HVAC. I am not surprised that someone serves you a crummy meal at a restaurant. I am not surprised that someone doesn't replace the washer on the oil drain and the fresh oil drips from your car onto your garage floor.

We live in the world, not in some heaven or utopia. If we lived in that utopia, markets would not be necessary. But we don't, so bring on the markets and let me pay for my stuff and not depend on do-gooders or government to take care of me. Blechhh.

I admit to making a generalization based upon the tenor of some of the comments in this thread, and the actual comments made in many threads over the past year or so.
I have read a lot of those threads and commented in some of them. I have yet to see any "tenor" that led me to believe any member would like to see no government and no regulation. When you make such accusations it looks like a cheap way to end an argument thinking your point prevails.

Sugar? Sugar? Let's talk about legalizing pot and prostitution.
Boyce

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Boyce
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by Boyce » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:29 pm

the logic I choose to use. I respect your right to choose your own form of logic
You are using the word "logic" incorrectly. Take Logic 101 at a local college (classroom is best). You will be fascinated.
Boyce

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Boyce
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by Boyce » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:34 pm

Idamtnboy
Jnk
NateS
Am I going to be like you guys when I retire?

Oh no, I see it coming.

Leaving here for a while. Bye.
Boyce

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NateS
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by NateS » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:02 pm

Boyce wrote:
Idamtnboy
Jnk
NateS
Am I going to be like you guys when I retire?
Probably.

Regards, Nate

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MaxDarkside
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by MaxDarkside » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:36 pm

NateS wrote:
MaxDarkside wrote:I think it all comes down to personal choices about what is best for each of us, as individuals. You cannot educate stupid people, it's an act of frustration. Stupid people, billions of them on this planet, will do stupid things.
Of course this is true, but in many cases it is not that people are stupid, but that the only widely-disseminated information available is false and misleading.
You cut off where I said something to that effect, "...as informed as possible. That means watching ads and reading studies and reading web sites with our BS filters on high. "
Surely you are not suggesting [insert any issue here] are you? If so, [insert defeating your own assertion]
You give a classic form of a "Strawman". You make a statement in the form of a question suggesting something I didn't say, then follow it with an "If so..." and then you beat the strawman you created with a pinata broom handle. Nice try. I didn't say that.

I will say that I think YOU are responsible for what YOU put in your mouth, especially if it is from a package YOU opened, from a shelf YOU took it from. I also say you have the FREEDOM and CHOICE to do that and you get to reap the consequences for your actions, good or bad. I don't. Your neighbor doesn't, YOU do. Yes, purposely misleading information is a problem, but there's enough information "out there" about established products and chemicals (sugar, salt, ... the matter on-topic) that for you to be not informed would be negligence. If it is a new chemical, the effects are not known, why in the hell would you eat it?

(and yes, there ARE stupid people in this world and are a different group than just ignorant. There's hope for the ignorant)

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jnk
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by jnk » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:05 am

Boyce wrote: . . . using the word "logic". . .
Perhaps this will help you understand what I meant. Or not. Depending on whether you want to.
Definition of LOGIC: . . . b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty . . . --http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/logic
As you can see, the word "logic" is fully appropriate in describing both my valid logic and your faulty logic.

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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by fredr500 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:01 am

WarmBodies wrote:
Customers are often lied to. "jnk"

You could be specific and tell us when you have been lied to? Do you continue to do business with these companies? If they lie about a product do you not take it back for full refund?
I wasn't the poster, but here are a few that pop to mind:

The Nissan Leaf will go 100 miles on a charge (75 is more like it). I knew better, had done my research, so was not surprised about the lie or reality, leased the car anyway.

From AT&T: Your $40/month rate is the best we can do. I switched to VOIP. Got an offer from AT&T a month later offering me service for $20. I wouldn't have switched if they offered me the $20 up front, but have not gone back. I'm about to drop the land line completely anyway.

From Obama: Health care will improve, costs will go down, I'll cut the deficit in half during my first term, and just about anything else that has ever come out of his mouth. If I could take him back for a refund I would.

From Microsoft: Windows 8 is the best Windows yet. 'Nuff said.

From our local Ford dealer: Undisputed Price Leader. I've seen it disputed in print.

And wander the aisles of the grocery store. How many "New and Improved" items are really better? Or items with Healthy in the name, are they really?


We are lied to constantly, our job is to determine if we still want what we are being sold.

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jnk
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by jnk » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:37 am

In a great discussion from people in a sales-training forum, commenting on the nature of the business of lying:
. . . A large number of salespersons, because of the money, rationalize that their lies are okay since the company is doing it, not them. . . . Now here is the tricky part. Is splitting hairs not lying? In other words, not saying the whole truth, just leaving certain parts out that would surely cost you the sale. Or just saying what the customer wants to hear while not directly answering their question by distracting them with other verbiage or distracting them by showing them something else to take their mind off their original question? All of these techniques are an everyday part of the sales industry . . .
http://www.salespractice.com/forums/t-7312.html

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idamtnboy
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by idamtnboy » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:37 am

Another lie example. Years ago I had been a years long user of Mennen Afta after shave lotion. They came out with a second scent and labeled the 'old' version as 'Original'. Well, the orginal formula burned my face something awful and I could not use it. I called customer service. Their answer, "Well it is still the original formula except one of the preservatives was changed." Yeah, so much for truth in labeling. They sent me a refund for that bottle of Afta. I've been using Lubriderm body lotion ever since. Works great.

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MaxDarkside
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by MaxDarkside » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:16 am

We run a business. We see competitors spew baloney constantly; hype, fancy words ("collaborative", "sustainable", etc), and excessive claims. We refuse to do that. We tell the customer the truth, pleasant or painful. This makes our business not grow as fast, but steadily and firmly like an oak. After 20+ years we're still in business and making very good revenue per employee (numerous 6-figures per) while we watch our competitors flare up, burn-out and disintegrate. Often, after they "blow out", we step in and provide the solution, one that works and is good. Telling half truths, lying, hyping up a weak product is to their disadvantage and very much to ours.

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DeadlySleep
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by DeadlySleep » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:27 am

not saying the whole truth, just leaving certain parts out that would surely cost you the sale.
Unlike those fine members here who would never leave anything out. Who, every time they updated their resume and interviewed for a job, placed right up front all their failings and inadequacies. Who never read an article on how to dress up a resume or reply to questions during an interview. Who just was a wide open book spelling out all the disadvantages of hiring them. Pure and total honesty.

Going to the boss every day and confessing how many hours on the clock they spent reading and posting in cpaptalk.


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MaxDarkside
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by MaxDarkside » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:44 am

DeadlySleep wrote:BTW, I am a certified a**hole. Several of you just need to feel out the forms and send in the application fee. Your certification will be granted speedily.
Thanks, that reminds me ... I need to renew...

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NateS
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Re: OT: Sugar and lies

Post by NateS » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:08 am

MaxDarkside wrote:
NateS wrote:
MaxDarkside wrote:I think it all comes down to personal choices about what is best for each of us, as individuals. You cannot educate stupid people, it's an act of frustration. Stupid people, billions of them on this planet, will do stupid things.
Of course this is true, but in many cases it is not that people are stupid, but that the only widely-disseminated information available is false and misleading.
You cut off where I said something to that effect, "...as informed as possible. That means watching ads and reading studies and reading web sites with our BS filters on high. "
Surely you are not suggesting [insert any issue here] are you? If so, [insert defeating your own assertion]
You give a classic form of a "Strawman". You make a statement in the form of a question suggesting something I didn't say, then follow it with an "If so..." and then you beat the strawman you created with a pinata broom handle. Nice try. I didn't say that.
You didn't? As a matter of fact, you just said it again. With all due respect, Max I think you are the one who created a "strawman" argument by deleting the substance of my sentence. Here is what I said without your deletions:
NateS wrote:
Surely you are not suggesting that each member of society must be willing and able to devote a lifetime to exhaustively and independently research every product they consume, and those who don't are "stupid people" are you? If so, when would we have time and energy to do anything else, like hold down a job, spend time with family, and sleep?
And here is your reply which confirms that your stated position is precisely as I had characterized it in that paragraph:
MaxDarkside wrote:
I will say that I think YOU are responsible for what YOU put in your mouth, especially if it is from a package YOU opened, from a shelf YOU took it from. I also say you have the FREEDOM and CHOICE to do that and you get to reap the consequences for your actions, good or bad. I don't. Your neighbor doesn't, YOU do. Yes, purposely misleading information is a problem, but there's enough information "out there" about established products and chemicals (sugar, salt, ... the matter on-topic) that for you to be not informed would be negligence. If it is a new chemical, the effects are not known, why in the hell would you eat it?
So that is what you believe. Those who fail to do their own research on everything they put in their mouth are stupid. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but there is nothing to be gained by simultaneously asserting and denying that you said it.

Some of us on this thread believe, on the other hand, that that kind of "rugged individualism" is unrealistic when it comes to collective lying by an entire industry as to the safety and efficacy of the product they make or distribute; and that when collective lying by an industry occurs, the public's only realistic recourse is to collaborate collectively through their government, first to create and enforce reasonable regulations to prohibit such obviously unethical industry practices, and second to effectuate research to find and disseminate the truth. I respectfully assert that people victimized by collective industry lying are not stupid.

Regards, Nate

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