Supreme Court and the Individual Mandate

The Choker wrote:
Maybe you are also a fan of Roosevelt - Krugman certainly is. Have you read any economic history to know that Roosevelt only made the depression more severe and longer? If you read the history you will see that the U.S. economy was in bad shape through 1945 and only began to recover in 1946. All the spending that Roosevelt directed and all the spending on the war did not revive the economy. During WWII the country was still in deep recession - very few new houses were built, very few people traveled on vacation, very few new cars were sold, key consumer items were in short supply, and on and on - depression conditions continued through 1945. Government spending and running up debt only prolonged the depression.

What ended the depression? The supply side of the private economy ended the recession, specifically the labor part of the supply side. Labor came home from the war and labor left the factories making products for the war. Once this labor was freed from producing for government, it began to produce for the private side and the economy began a very long period of growth. This is a prime historical example refuting Krugman's theories.

Excellent -- the facts cannot be disputed.

NateS wrote:You're missing the point. Krugman is talking about public sector jobs.

You do believe in public sector jobs, like police officers, firefighters, public school teachers, etc. etc. don't you?

How about road and infrastructure maintenance and repair? and so on.

I don't believe you read the recommended Krugman articles before replying.

Respectfully, Nate

I've read enough of his stuff to know he's full of shit everything he says about our economy has been PROVEN false historically.

The Choker wrote:Roosevelt only made the depression more severe and longer? If you read the history you will see that the U.S. economy was in bad shape through 1945 and only began to recover in 1946.

False. See the graph below, from http://chronicle.com/blognetwork/edgeof ... mic-idiot/. (The 1937 uptick in unemployment and downtick in GDP is because of the famous return to austerity that Keynes warned against.)

Gentlemen I think you all will agree that this is an argument that no one will win. So why don't you agree to disagree and quite using up all the storage space on our host severs for an argument that no one will win and save that storage space for sleep apnea problems. This is a sleep apnea forum not a political forum. If this upsets you so be it.

squid13 wrote: quit using up all the storage space on our host severs ..... save that storage space for sleep apnea problems. This is a sleep apnea forum not a political forum. If this upsets you so be it.

Not to be critical (especially since I really enjoy the joke thread), but what do you call this?

viewtopic/t70730/OT-Daily-Funny-bone.html

I stand corrected but this is still an argument that nobody will win and can go on and on. Politics and religion are arguments that nobody will win cause each is set in their own beliefs. So best to agree to disagree and move on.

squid13 wrote:I stand corrected but this is still an argument that nobody will win and can go on and on. Politics and religion are arguments that nobody will win cause each is set in their own beliefs.

Now THAT is a correct statement -- something we can agree on. However, don't be surprised if this thread continues to be a magnet for new comments. One thing you are not giving credit to -- ObamaCare now consumes about 16 percent of the national economy. And the Roberts ruling sets the stage for incredible government intrusion into our lives going forward. As I just read today "If the feds can tax us for not doing as they have commanded, and if that which is commanded need not be grounded in the Constitution, then there is no constitutional limit to their power" (Judge Andrew Napolitano).

So it's not like this stuff isn't important.

Humor is good medicine, it lowers blood pressure, and reduces stress hormones.
Debate about politics or religion is exactly the opposite.
It accomplishes nothing, and makes people angry/unhappy.
If you really want to rant, please do so in a certified letter
to the appropriate leader. Feel free to use profanity and/or threats.

chunkyfrog wrote:Humor is good medicine, it lowers blood pressure, and reduces stress hormones.
Debate about politics or religion is exactly the opposite.
It accomplishes nothing, and makes people angry/unhappy.
If you really want to rant, please do so in a certified letter
to the appropriate leader. Feel free to use profanity and/or threats.

I guess you meant this advice for me.

Just curious -- with your attitude on it, what on earth compels you to even visit this particular thread when it is so detrimental to your health? Unless I am mistaken, there is no one standing behind you with a gun to your head making you click your mouse.

squid13 wrote:I stand corrected but this is still an argument that nobody will win and can go on and on. Politics and religion are arguments that nobody will win cause each is set in their own beliefs. So best to agree to disagree and move on.

I half agree, but only half. Certainly I don't mind refraining from taking part in a discussion of the causes of the Great Depression, although I don't care what others do. I think healthcare reform is different, though, and appropriate to a CPAP forum. All of us have a stake in this, if only because of our apnea. More than that, we have special insight into the harm that follows when a silent, chronic condition goes untreated for years and has time to work its damage. Flowing through the PPACA is a philosophy of getting as many people as possible into the world of routine medical care, including preventive care and early treatment, and away from waiting for emergency care when it's too late to avoid most of the harm. I want to see people with our symptoms seeking treatment young without fear of the cost because they have insurance they have paid for, at least in part, rather than coming to the ER after a stroke, which is the only point at which the law today says they must be treated, and where we pick up the now much higher cost. The avoidance of human misery is the biggest reason for this, but economic logic points the same way. I consider it a life and death issue. I know that there are others who also believe, in good faith, that this is a life and death issue, but that I've got it backwards. They're entitled to their say too. But I don't think this is an illogical place to talk about it. And who knows, maybe a few minds will change. I don't consider this to be about "winning" arguments.

PST,
I'm willing to bet you've learned more debating someone with different view points, than talking with someone who agrees with everything you say. I know I learn way more by talking with people who have opposite opinions. I've even changed my mind when someone makes a well reasoned argument.

On the debating healthcare on a CPAP forum, I agree with you 100%.

I've been out of touch with the news lately. All I want to know is if the price of CPAP machines and supplies are going up or down. I noticed that healthcare stocks are on the rise. Likely answers my question. ^^^

Chuck Connors wrote:I've been out of touch with the news lately. All I want to know is if the price of CPAP machines and supplies are going up or down. I noticed that healthcare stocks are on the rise. Likely answers my question. ^^^

Not necessarily. It could mean that a lot more people who have sleep apnea will be able to get CPAP machines and supplies, increasing gross volume of sales not necessarily prices.

Regards, Nate

The Choker wrote:

Paul Krugman, a professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University, who received his B.A. from Yale University in 1974 and his Ph.D. from MIT in 1977 and who has taught at Yale, MIT and Stanford and at MIT was the Ford International Professor of Economics, has written extensively on this topic in a series of columns in The New York Times, one of the more recent of which appears at

NateS wrote:
I don't believe you read the recommended Krugman articles before replying.

So you read Krugman and you are convinced that anyone who reads his work will be transformed into a believer? … You want people to read Krugman and you think they will then believe what you believe. May I suggest you read some of the plethora of rational criticism of Krugman?

I apologize if I gave you that impression. Really, I am not that naive. My intent was to point out that the responding poster did not address Krugman's argument in his reply. The reply did not contain any criticism of Krugman's rationale. Hence, I believe I am correct that the reply attacked the point of the articles without addressing them, and without reading them.

Glad to know you read them.

Best wishes, Nate

Nate

squid13 wrote:I stand corrected but this is still an argument that nobody will win and can go on and on. Politics and religion are arguments that nobody will win cause each is set in their own beliefs. So best to agree to disagree and move on.

The chief Nazi newspaper, Volkischer Beobachter, repeatedly praised “Roosevelt’s adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies” and “the development toward an authoritarian state” based on the “demand that collective good be put before individual self-interest.” Roosevelt himself called Benito Mussolini “admirable” and professed that he was “deeply impressed by what he had accomplished.”

FDR’s very own treasury secretary, Henry Morgenthau, saw the folly of the New Deal, writing: “We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. ... We have never made good on our promises. ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... and an enormous debt to boot!” The bottom line is that Roosevelt’s New Deal policies turned what would have been a three- or four-year sharp downturn into a 16-year affair.

The 1930s depression was caused by and aggravated by acts of government. The current recession is facilitated, deepened and prolonged by acts of Federal and State governments - Republicans and Democrats!