Excess Carbon dioxide in the mask?

Okie bipap · Post by **Okie bipap** » Thu May 28, 2020 9:30 am

My wife and I have both used the F20 mask for three years. The only thing we have changed on them is the cushions and head gear. I did update them to the new elbow about two years ago. With the newer style elbow, you cannot feel the air being exhausted from the mask because it has a baffle over the holes. If you would like to try one of the old style elbows, send me a PM with your name and address and I will send you one. I guaranty you will be able to feel the air being exhausted from the mask with it.

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Thu May 28, 2020 9:42 am

Okie bipap wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:30 am
My wife and I have both used the F20 mask for three years. The only thing we have changed on them is the cushions and head gear. I did update them to the new elbow about two years ago. With the newer style elbow, you cannot feel the air being exhausted from the mask because it has a baffle over the holes. If you would like to try one of the old style elbows, send me a PM with your name and address and I will send you one. I guaranty you will be able to feel the air being exhausted from the mask with it.

Are YOU dead from these masks that don't vent anything at all???

Concerned people want to know.

Dog Slobber · Post by **Dog Slobber** » Thu May 28, 2020 9:42 am

Okie bipap wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:30 am
If you would like to try one of the old style elbows, send me a PM with your name and address and I will send you one. I guaranty you will be able to feel the air being exhausted from the mask with it.

A very nice gesture, a waste of time, but a nice gesture.

If you read dbotas posts, you'll see that he believes the AA valves are responsible for the CO2 venting. Since the valves aren't flapping they aren't working and no CO2 is being vented.

Nothing said thus far has resulted in him even considering he's incorrect, because after all, he's an HVAC engineer.

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Thu May 28, 2020 9:58 am

palerider wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:42 am

Okie bipap wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:30 am
My wife and I have both used the F20 mask for three years. The only thing we have changed on them is the cushions and head gear. I did update them to the new elbow about two years ago. With the newer style elbow, you cannot feel the air being exhausted from the mask because it has a baffle over the holes. If you would like to try one of the old style elbows, send me a PM with your name and address and I will send you one. I guaranty you will be able to feel the air being exhausted from the mask with it.
Are YOU dead from these masks that don't vent anything at all???

Concerned people want to know.

Oh No, Not another Attack of the Typing Dead!

Jim

jimbud · Post by **jimbud** » Thu May 28, 2020 10:23 am

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:42 am
HVAC engineer.

Translation:
Hoover Vacuum Cleaner salesman. (door to door)

JPB

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Thu May 28, 2020 10:55 am

jimbud wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 10:23 am

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:42 am
HVAC engineer.
Translation:
Hoover Vacuum Cleaner salesman. (door to door)

JPB

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Maybe he got his Doctorate, from HYVAC PHEW, with a degree in Kirby Filters. Jim

Okie bipap · Post by **Okie bipap** » Thu May 28, 2020 7:52 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:42 am
Are YOU dead from these masks that don't vent anything at all???

No, but I'm sure it has caused the bronchitis attack I am just now getting over.

dbotas · Post by **dbotas** » Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm

Other than maximizing mask comfort, there are 2 main tasks of a CPAP machine. Provide modulated fresh air (air/ 02 supply) to keep you from holding your breath during the night, and remove the majority of the CO2 from the mask that You are exhaling with every out breath so you are not re-breathing it with your succeeding inhales

If both O2 and CO2 are going down your windpipe during the night you lungs will be transferring both into your bloodstream

If you are NOT getting O2 into your bloodstream then your bodies autotomic response will kick in and you will feel like you’re asphsyxiating. Your body generally will not notice if you ARE getting CO2 into your bloodstream. No autotomic body response for that

A minority of people will slightly react to CO2 in the blood stream with headaches, fogginess, tics, maybe slightly disrupted sleep. The body does not have any protective response to CO2 inhalation nor CO inhalation

So if your blood is Showing high CO2 content, look at your mask’s venting mechanism that is supposed to be venting your every breath’s exhaled CO2.

If the same volume of air that you are exhaling up your windpipe & past your lips and/or nostrils is not exiting from the mask’s CO2 vent, then you are re-inhaling it with your subsequent inhales .

And then your lungs will silently put it into your bloodstream just like they put O2 into your bloodstream

Inspect and carefully check the total flow quantity coming ou the mask exhale vents. Maybe try a different design mask and compare the venting amounts

As you will see above, I encountered & blundered through the same problem. My symptoms were different slightly because I have significantly damaged lungs but the problem and the solution was the same.

My medical vendor switched me from the ResMed F 20 mask with the newer Quiet Elbow vent to the older ResMed F10 design with the noisy high flow elbow vent and my physical symptoms went away

Problem seems to be solved but as soon as my medical provider is again doing sleep tests after COVID, I will be scheduled for a sleep test and following blood test to check & document the CO2 level with the F10 ... just to be on the safe side.

fwiw...

DB

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Thu May 28, 2020 11:53 pm

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
If both O2 and CO2 are going down your windpipe during the night you lungs will be transferring both into your bloodstream

Please stop with the ignorance, maybe you know how to fix an HVAC system, but you know nothing of respiratory biology.

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
If you are NOT getting O2 into your bloodstream then your bodies autotomic response will kick in and you will feel like you’re asphsyxiating. Your body generally will not notice if you ARE getting CO2 into your bloodstream. No autotomic body response for that

You're wrong, completely wrong, you're spouting things you have no knowledge of, and making work for people that have to waste time refuting your garbage.

Go learn something about respiratory loop cycles before you post any more drivel.

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
A minority of people will slightly react to CO2 in the blood stream with headaches, fogginess, tics, maybe slightly disrupted sleep. The body does not have any protective response to CO2 inhalation nor CO inhalation

there is ALWAYS CO2 in the blood stream, in varying levels, all day long when you're not even wearing the mask.

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
So if your blood is Showing high CO2 content, look at your mask’s venting mechanism that is supposed to be venting your every breath’s exhaled CO2.

and if you don't have a SpCO2 meter, then you're *JUST GUESSING*

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
If the same volume of air that you are exhaling up your windpipe & past your lips and/or nostrils is not exiting from the mask’s CO2 vent, then you are re-inhaling it with your subsequent inhales .

and guess what, EERS is a valid therapeutic treatment method for certain conditions. (google it)

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
And then your lungs will silently put it into your bloodstream just like they put O2 into your bloodstream

Your ignorance is legion.
Stop posting.

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
As you will see above, I encountered & blundered through the same problem. My symptoms were different slightly because I have significantly damaged lungs but the problem and the solution was the same.

What you're BLUNDERING is your faulty assumptions.

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
Problem seems to be solved but as soon as my medical provider is again doing sleep tests after COVID, I will be scheduled for a sleep test and following blood test to check & document the CO2 level with the F10 ... just to be on the safe side.

blood tests aren't necessary to determine SpCO2, which is lucky for you because having them come in and do an arterial stick on you to do an ABG would invalidate the test ANYWAY because you'd wake up.

ChicagoGranny · Post by **ChicagoGranny** » Fri May 29, 2020 7:00 am

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
Other than maximizing mask comfort, there are 2 main tasks of a CPAP machine. Provide modulated fresh air (air/ 02 supply) blah blah blah blah

A very high level of wrong information. How did you dream up all the nonsense in that post???

If you care about people, you will edit out all that dangerously bad information lest some naive person takes it for fact.

Dog Slobber · Post by **Dog Slobber** » Fri May 29, 2020 7:46 am

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm

Problem seems to be solved but as soon as my medical provider is again doing sleep tests after COVID, I will be scheduled for a sleep test and following blood test to check & document the CO2 level with the F10 ... just to be on the safe side.

Here are the venting flow curves from the F10, F20 (with original elbow) and F20 (with QuietAir Elbow).

The venting for all three are identical. So we are to believe that your "damaged lungs" are more sensitive to the measuring equipment, and numerous tests that ResMed is required to submit to various governing bodies to get approval.

Add this to the fact that earlier you were adamant that there was absolutely no venting occurring because you didn't understand how the AA valve worked.

Fx0-Venting.png

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
fwiw...

DB

It's worth nothing.

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Fri May 29, 2020 9:34 am

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 7:46 am

dbotas wrote: ↑
Thu May 28, 2020 9:40 pm
fwiw...

DB
It's worth nothing.

Less than nothing, the drivel from dbotas has negative worth, because it's is incorrect, and misleading.

Anvis · Post by **Anvis** » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:19 pm

I've occasionally used P10 pillows, instead of my Quattro face mask to try and get the hang of all-night nose breathing but can never get it work as well, I get less apneas and hypopneas, but always seem to sleep less hours, wake up too early, and bottom line is full face mask I feel better and just let my body breathe the way it wants. Was wondering too if the P10 is venting enough compared to the face mask because it's so quiet and diffused, but according to the data (it's a Respironics machine) the master leak rate is fine with it sealed nicely so don't think it's an issue of too much CO2.

pennyshore · Post by **pennyshore** » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:44 pm

dbotas wrote: ↑
Sat May 23, 2020 11:30 pm
I have been using a Resmed AirSense 10 with a Resmed Quattro Air Mask (the one with the forehead bridge) for 5 years very successfully.

Recently I changed to to new insurance co and they prescribed me a new AirSense 10 (identical machine and settings) and a new Resmed Airfit 20 mask.

First night I wore it it worked fine except that I quickly realized I was not getting enough oxygen (I have Reactive Airway condition so my lungs do not pickup oxygen as efficiently as normal lungs do... (although I am fit I can't really run because I don't get enough O2).

I soon noticed 0 air was escaping from the F20's 2 elbow siphon valves as always occurs with the Quattro Air. Once the machine powers up the two flaps on the sides of the F20's elbow slap shut and NEVER open again. 0 leakage.

I have had friends watch the flaps closely while holding a feather around the new pivot point etc. Absolutely 0 exit air with the F20.

I switched to the older machine with the new F20 mask and same problem. Quattro Air mask flap (it only has one located straight ahead) works perfectly with either machine and I get the oxygen rich sustaining breathing with it. BUT with either machine the AIRFIT F20 no CO2 is being siphoned away. 0 ... none ... nada!

The supplier sent me a new F20 mask... exact same problem. Both supplier and I talked with Resmed.

Resmed said they made the F20 to be more quiet for a companion sleeper by eliminating the air leakage at the elbow's circular pivot connection.

That's true but in my opinion they did not alter the controlling algorithm to account for the tighter seal so there is more pressure constantly exerted on the exhale flaps and they never open again to siphon out C02 while the machine is operating. No wonder the mask is SUPER quiet!

Either it is a algorithm pressure issue or alternatively the issue might be caused by the siphon air having to make a right angle to exit the F20's smaller two flaps where with the Quattro it exits straight ahead through one larger flap. (As a retired HVAC engineer I can tell u definitively that making air or a liquid make a right angle creates substantial back pressure resistance and cuts down on flow severely so that might be the issue rather than the machine's controlling algorithm

I suspect people with sleep apnea and normal lungs don't notice because they can better process what 02 there is much better than my lungs can.

But nobody should be sleeping with a CO2 buildup. Very unhealthy over time. Carbon dioxide intoxication or carbon dioxide poisoning, known, respectively, as hypercapnia can lead to drowsiness, elevated blood pressure, difficulty in thinking, muscle twitches and if untreated to respiratory failure.

The supplier substituted a new Resmed F10 which has the same older style elbow valve as the Quattro Air mask and it works fine. No C02 buildup. Just like the Quattro mask.

The F!0 works fine and that is what I am using now but I prefer the F20' silicon face seal ... its more comfortable and wrinkles my face less & the magnets are cool too.

Can anyone else comment on this F20 non opening flaps / CO2 issue or a possible solution?

Thanks

DB

Thank you for your succinct posts, they are all I’ve been able to find on the subject.
I’ve just tried my new airfit F20 mask and have the same problem. Absolutely no venting.
Between that and the mask’s excellent fit, I can’t breathe properly at any pressure.

Thanks again. I’ll contact the vendor.
Cheers, Penny, Australia

Serozoo · Post by **Serozoo** » Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:10 pm

The F20 is the fist mask I have ever used and I am so happy I found this thread! Try getting your "support" team to believe you that your mask is not venting used air and the asphyxiation valves get stuck up blocking the vent holes when you are just starting out using CPAP. They can't seem to grasp the concept that there really is a problem and that I have absolutely no issue or discomfort with physically wearing the mask...ugh, do they frustrate me!

I have observed the valves not working both with the machine on and off. Every single time the machine is on the valves are stuck blocking the vent holes with both inhale and exhale during ramp and normal pressure settings.

The small holes that are in the gasket area of the elbow piece do not allow airflow our either.

You cannot physically feel any air exiting from either place. I even put some of the light fluffy hair my bunny shed on the table next to me to see if it would move from small air currents escaping when I exhaled - nothing moved.

Moral of my story is if it feels, tastes and smells like you're breathing in air that came from inside a balloon you just blew up you probably are. I'm deciding which mask to try next-I don't care if I sound like Darth Vader.

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