OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
User avatar
robysue
Posts: 7520
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY
Contact:

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by robysue » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:20 pm

cre8vmynd cited these articles about OSA and low t:
cre8vmynd wrote:Here are a couple studies I've found in the past regarding OSA and low t.

http://men.webmd.com/news/20110603/slee ... stosterone
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/87/7/3394.full

Here's information regarding osteoporosis in men.
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/livin ... 7/male-men
As a 54-year old woman who has just had a bone density test show borderline osteoporosis, I've been doing a lot of web browsing while waiting for my followup appointment with the doc to get the official diagnosis and talk about proposed treatment plan. Among many other things that I've run across about osteoporosis, one article in particular is relevant to this thread.

The paper is Link between obstructive sleep apnea and increased bone resorption in men and it was published in 2008 in the peer refereed journal Osteoporosis International. Bone resorption by the osteoclasts is the process by which the body takes minerals out of the bones to be used elsewhere in the body. In osteoporosis, for one reason or another, the rate of bone resorption by the osteoclasts is greater than rate of formation of new bone by the osteoblasts, and this imbalance between the rate of bone resorption and bone formation leads to the loss of bone mass over time. The paper's abstract says:
Abstract

The bone metabolic abnormalities in patients with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) were examined. Severity-dependent increases in the serum/urinary levels of bone resorption markers and their attenuation following continuous positive airway pressure therapy in subjects with OSA provide the first evidence of a link between OSA and abnormal bone metabolism.
INTRODUCTION:

Hypoxia, microinflammation and oxidative stress, well-known pathophysiological features of obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), are also known to affect bone metabolism. We examined the bone metabolic abnormalities in patients with OSA and also the effects of continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) therapy on these abnormalities.
METHODS:

A cross-sectional and prospective study was conducted in 50 consecutive male subjects visiting a sleep clinic and 15 age-matched control subjects without OSA. Plasma concentrations of IL-1beta, IL-6, TNF-alfa, 3-nitrotyrosine, osteocalcin, bone-specific alkaline phosphatase (BAP), and urinary concentrations of cross-linked C-terminal telopeptide of type I collagen (CTX) were examined before and after 3 months' CPAP in subjects with OSA.
RESULTS:

The plasma levels of the cytokines as well as the urinary CTX levels were higher in subjects with severe OSA than in those with mild OSA or control subjects. Significant decrease of the urinary excretion of CTX (before: 211+/-107 vs. after: 128+/-59 microg/mmol/creatinine; p<0.01) as well as of the plasma levels of the cytokines was observed following 3 months' CPAP.
CONCLUSIONS:

Severity-dependent increases in the serum/urinary levels of bone resorption markers and their reversal following CPAP in subjects with OSA provide the first evidence of a link between OSA and abnormal bone metabolism.
Unfortunately, the paper's copyright now belongs to Springer and requires purchasing in order to read the whole thing. The Springer link is http://www.springerlink.com/content/u67hm4j5lt576522/. However, I have also found this link to the full paper in PDF format.

The paper makes for interesting reading.

In the Introduction section, the authors state:
Given the high prevalence of OSA and its association with multiple systemic pathological changes, it was considered likely that OSA may also have a substantial impact on other metabolic disorders. The fact that inflammatory cytokines and oxidative stress, as well as hypoxia itself are known to affect bone cell function and may be considered as risk factors for osteoporosis led us to hypothesize that OSA may also predispose oto or exacerbate osteoporosis by causing abnormalities of bone metabolism.

...

The results demonstrate that severe OSA was associated with increased bone resorption, which was reversed by CPAP therapy. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first clinical indication of the adverse effects of OSA on bone metabolism.
In the Discussion section the authors state:
There are at least three mechanisms that may potentially mediate abnormal bone metabolism in OSA: hypoxia, increased oxidative stress and inflammation.

...

The reports that hypoxia induces osteoclast differentiation and suppresses the functions of osteoblasts are consistent with our current observation of elevation of only a bone resorption marker (urinary CTX), but not of bone formation markers (BAP and OC) in our OSA patients. These results may suggest that the abnormal bone metabolism in OSA is characterized by "an uncoupled state" between increased bone resorption and relatively suppressed bone formation.

OSA is, however, quite different from chronic hypoxia-related diseases, such as emphysema, in that the hypoxia is intermittent and that the frequent episodes of hypoxia followed by reoxygenation cause oxidative stress and inflammation, both of which have been etiologically implicated in the increased risk of cardiovascular diseases in patients with OSA. The importance of the intermittent nature of the hypoxia in OSA is probably reflected by the fact that the urinary CTX levels were weakly, but significantly, correlated with the AHI rather than the LoSO2. While elevation of the plasma levels of inflammatory cytokines is also noted in obese subjects, we were able to successfully demonstrate that the parameters of inflammation increased in our OSA patients in a severity-dependent manner in our OSA patients and that CPAP therapy attenuated these abnormalities, in the absence of any significant change of the body weight of the patients.

...

A plausible mechanism to explain the aforementioned "uncoupled state" between bone formation and bone resorption is the influence of cortisol. Elevation of the plasma level of cortisol in OSA patients and its return to normal range after CPAP therapy have been reported. Excessive cortisol levels may suppress bone formation, but not resorption. The next logical step would, therefore, be to clarify the relationship among OSA, bone metabolism and the serum levels of cortisol.
The authors do note limitations on the study including
... bone mineral density was not assessed in the current study. The clinical significance of our finding of increase in the levels of bone resorption markers in OSA patients cannot be established until the bone mineral density and, ultimately, the fracture risk, is also evaluated. Thus, confirmatory evidence that OSA is indeed an independent risk factor for osteoporosis must await further clinical studies.
The authors conclude with:
Because we were not able to find strong determinants of increased bone resorption in the current study, there are still other factors potentially involved in both OSA and bone metabolic abnormalities, including cortisol excess and reduced physical activity that need to be addressed. Future studies focusing on such factors may be helpful for elucidating the pathophysiological link between OSA and osteoporosis.

In conclusion, the present study was the first to demonstrate abnormalities in the markers of bone metabolism in patients with severe OSA, and reversal of these abnormalities following 3 months' CPAP therapy. Reduced inflammation and oxidative stress along with improvement in the arterial oxygen saturation associated with CPAP therapy may contribute, at least in part, to the observed beneficial effects. Larger scale clinical studies with bone mineral density and/or fracture incidence as endpoints will be needed to clarify whether or not OSA is indeed an independent risk factor for osteoporosis and whether CPAP therapy might truly have beneficial effects on the bone mass and quality and prevent fractures in subjects with OSA.

_________________
Machine: DreamStation BiPAP® Auto Machine
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: PR System DreamStation and Humidifier. Max IPAP = 9, Min EPAP=4, Rise time setting = 3, minPS = 3, maxPS=5

sandman19
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:36 am

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by sandman19 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:51 pm

Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments and information. After 3 years of successful HRT, I have been struggling with low T and osteopenia for 4 years while on high dose topical HRT. A Dx of Sleep Apnea (SDB) would explain a lot of things. (my pulse ox study showed severe desaturation; my sleep study is December 1st)

I feel that serial blood evaluations of Testosterone-Free and Bound and SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) levels are needed for a thorough and safe evaluation of Hormone Replacement Therapy for low testosterone. Similarly, serial Bone Density Studies (of the lumbar spine and hips), 25-Hydroxyvitamin D2, D3 and Dtotal and Magnesium (cellular) levels are needed for safe evaluation of osteoporosis and and its therapy. These studies can guide therapy and alleviate any concerns about toxic levels.

Thanks for the medical references. I have several happy hours of reading to do.

Sandman19

User avatar
RationalEntropy
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by RationalEntropy » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:01 am

The above cited study performed by R. Luboshitzky, et al indicated the possibility of luteinizing hormone (LH) increasing with treatment of sleep apneas. LH stimulates the leydig cells to produce testosterone. IT is a friend. I've also found a paper in conflict with Luboshitsky's work, but unfortunately I cannot access the full version. For what it is worth it is here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1199900689.

Now, it may seem that I am posting indirect things, but I believe there is a strong connection (I'm no medical professional, just a physics grad student, and fellow apnea sufferer). Until I get blood tests done my anecdotal evidence cannot be raised to semi-poorly designed case study level, but since I've been given the ASV my body composition has improved a bit more, I've performed better in the gym, and well... let's just say that I think I feel like a teenager in the good ways.

Now, I'm not sure with absolute certainty if vitamin d, calcium and an XPAP will solve all of the testosterone and osteoporosis issues. I do know that there are alternatives: 1) TRT (testosterone replacement therapy), 2) SERMS (selective estrogen receptor modulators), 3) meds specifically for osteoporosis.

When it comes to TRT many anecdotes tell me of having far better luck with injections, as the gels can sweat off, and I've heard varying accounts of how well they absorb. As for SERMS they are typically prescribed for breast cancer issues, but can increase bone strength, and will increase LH and FSH (so sayeth the roiders, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412336, and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18692782). Now the last two make mention of gonadotropins, which naturally make testosterone. While still on the topic of SERMs there are publications indicating bone density increases with their use, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18001802.

I'm not sure how likely your endo is to prescribe SERMs, given what they are normally prescribed for. It seems like that the Sleep Specialist will prescribe XPAP given an AHI >70.

I wish you be best of luck. Keep us posted on the saga of AHI lowering, osteo-health, and testosterone.

sandman19
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:36 am

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by sandman19 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:03 pm

Fredouil-Thanks for a great topic and Thanks to all who have posted. My PCP thinks sleep apnea is the reason for my being unresponsive to topical testosterone. I don't understand the mechanism. I have my sleep test December 1st and hopefully a machine about two weeks after that. Then we will see what happens. I hope you all have a great Holiday.

User avatar
RationalEntropy
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by RationalEntropy » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:06 am

When it comes to sleep apnea prolactin is produced, and luteinizing hormone (growth hormones is also decreased, while insulin, ghelin, etc are raised). Luteinizing hormone is released from the hypothalamus, then triggers the testes to produce testosterone. Sleep apnea likely disrupts this directly through disruption of luteinizing hormone secretion, increase in prolaction secretion, and indirectly by increasing insulin and ghelin.

Prolactin, as its name implies encourages lactation, but it also can cause strong urges to sleep (there is a massive post-coital release of prolactin and oxytocin). Insulin is a storage hormone, and a search on google scholar or pubmed will pull up MANY papers on the link between insulin and testosterone. Ghelin increases appetite, which could eventually encourage fat gain, increase aromatase -> estrogen and a drop in testosterone.

Things to consider about topical testosterone: 1) is there a lot of hair in the area it is being applied?, 2) Is it possible that you are sweating a lot within four hours of application, 3) it may not be penetrating the skin (some recommend applying where there is vascularity/leaner parts of the body), 4) application of (large amounts of) exogenous hormones will lower natural production through a reverse feedback loop (why I was heavily emphasizing LH earlier). This loop is the HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis). Only blood work can tell you if your LH is low, 5) Testosterone injections are arguably more effective, but then visiting an endocrinologist weekly-biweekly could inconvenient, and many people fear needles.

As for hormones have you had the following tested:
Testosterone free and total
Estradiol (E2)
Prolactin (PRL)
Blood sugar
Thyroid stimulating Hormone (TSH)
T3 (active thyroid hormone)
T4 (inactive thyroid hormone)

The funny thing is that XPAP can actually help out with many of these parameters, but I would say that if any hormonal parameters remained "out of whack" after the AHI has been under control for a couple of months or so that further treatments should be sought.

All of that with your doctor's guidance, of course.

User avatar
scooter133
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:31 pm

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by scooter133 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:28 pm

cmanbrazil wrote: I would love to be off of androgel for cost alone. What if I lose my insurance? I hope to start weaning myself off of it soon.
I too would like to hope that once my OSA is under control that I could be of TRT, though Its not like AD drugs where you ween yourself off. There is a whole process for restarting the Hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis. When on TRT, it shuts down the axis and there are ways to kick-start it. So be careful!

Scott<-

_________________
Mask: ComfortGel Blue Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Sleepyhead Software, CMS-50F, Switch between the ComfortGel Blue, Quattro FFM w/ HG, Quattro FX FFM w/o HG, Swift FX w/o HG

User avatar
chunkyfrog
Posts: 34545
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Nowhere special--this year in particular.

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by chunkyfrog » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:11 pm

I was probably undiagnosed with apnea for 19 years.
My last two bone densitometries showed more minerals in my bones than a 30-year-old--and I'm 64, not very fit or active.
Go figure. -----Heredity?

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 For Her Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Airsense 10 Autoset for Her

nobody
Posts: 1018
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:50 am

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by nobody » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:59 pm

cmanbrazil wrote:
I would love to be off of androgel for cost alone. What if I lose my insurance? I hope to start weaning myself off of it soon.
There are much cheaper alternatives if you don't mind giving yourself an injection every week or two.

_________________
Machine: ResMed AirSense™ 10 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Respironics Simplicity nasal mask small

sickwithapnea17
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by sickwithapnea17 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:29 pm

http://jp.physoc.org/content/589/2/409.abstract

Wow can testosterone help sleep apnea and lung disease??? I'm not sure what they mean by LFT? does anyone know? there have been studies linking testosterone levels and asthma

I had such terrible sleep apnea last night when I slept without the bipap and oxygen. I think I'm slowly losing my brain function from low oxygen from sleep apnea and asthma
Last edited by sickwithapnea17 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
18/14 bipap st

sickwithapnea17
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by sickwithapnea17 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:11 am

The study I quoted mentions progesterone and I think it's oestradiol? perhaps there is some relationship with hormone imbalances/deficiencies and central sleep apnea? can hormone replacement therapy or supplements help treat central sleep apnea since this study says that these hormones help with neurological control of breathing?
you can get progesterone at least from a doctor in a cream or transdermal gel, probably from an endocrinologist. St. John's Wort may change levels of estradiol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John%27s_wort

I have tried vitamin D supplementation for a while including in high doses to correct deficiency and it does not seem to help sleep apnea

I'm going to see another sleep specialist who is a pulmonologist later today but I have run out of hope since it seems this disease is incurable
18/14 bipap st

User avatar
scooter133
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:31 pm

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by scooter133 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:19 am

nobody wrote:There are much cheaper alternatives if you don't mind giving yourself an injection every week or two.
Dont do the every two week shot. Minimum of a week! Most of the injectable T out there has a half life of 8-10 days. Though have some lag at either end. I did the two week thing as recommended by my Dr, though My T levels before the next shot were never any where close to my Upper third of the lab range. I do Weekly now and can still feel the Mood swings, but not nearly as much as I did on the every two weeks! Many guys I know do it twice a week, or every three days!

Scott<-

_________________
Mask: ComfortGel Blue Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Sleepyhead Software, CMS-50F, Switch between the ComfortGel Blue, Quattro FFM w/ HG, Quattro FX FFM w/o HG, Swift FX w/o HG

sickwithapnea17
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by sickwithapnea17 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:22 am

have you had any improvment in sleep apnea (esp central apnea) after shots, HCG, or SERM?
it seems that shots can help sleep apnea, but I'm not sure it may take a few months of shots before you start to feel normal
18/14 bipap st

nobody
Posts: 1018
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:50 am

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by nobody » Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:01 am

sickwithapnea17 wrote:have you had any improvment in sleep apnea (esp central apnea) after shots, HCG, or SERM?
it seems that shots can help sleep apnea, but I'm not sure it may take a few months of shots before you start to feel normal
T makes sleep apnea worse.

_________________
Machine: ResMed AirSense™ 10 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Respironics Simplicity nasal mask small

User avatar
2flamingos
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:26 pm
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by 2flamingos » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:05 am

nobody wrote:
sickwithapnea17 wrote:have you had any improvment in sleep apnea (esp central apnea) after shots, HCG, or SERM?
it seems that shots can help sleep apnea, but I'm not sure it may take a few months of shots before you start to feel normal
T makes sleep apnea worse.
I have to disagree. I am now on Fortesta and my AHI has gone down from around 5 to 2.4. I know it is not due to the TRT, I have also lost around 30 lbs (diet and exercise) due to my recent (6 months ago) dx of Diabetes. Before the Fotesta I was on Androderm. before that Androgel, and before that injections.

_________________
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Pressure - 12-16 ClimateLine Hose. Zeo Mobile, Chin Strap
Old enough to know better


Karma is a Wonderful Thing.

nobody
Posts: 1018
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:50 am

Re: OSA - Low testosterone/Osteoporosis

Post by nobody » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:25 am

I'm not just pulling that out of my bum. Google around for it, it's well known that exogenous testosterone can worsen obstructive sleep apnea.

_________________
Machine: ResMed AirSense™ 10 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Respironics Simplicity nasal mask small