Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by -SWS » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:08 pm

Mr Bill wrote: So, if these higher end boxes have decent CPU's and a little storage I think its entirely possible they are getting heartbeat and pulse frequency events as well as breathing volume and frequency.
Well, they're extracting most of those signal components alright... Otherwise we wouldn't have those graphs to discuss. Pulse frequency, however, cannot be reliably extracted throughout the night since cardiogenic oscillations do not reliably present in the flow-signal throughout the night.

My earlier comment about real-time constraints had more to do with unnecessary context-sensitive filtering. Depending on which signal information the designer wants to extract and then process, a variety of real-time consuming techniques can optionally be applied on-the-fly. However, as any signal-processing wish list gets bigger and bigger, remaining real-time becomes smaller and smaller as an available resource.

And some of those ASV set-points require a narrow real-time delivery window for timely proportional assist. Additionally, I would add that potential for failure tends to be commensurate with system complexity---but even more so for real-time systems. So heaping unnecessary complexity into a biomedical treatment system is not always a good thing to do.

HoseCrusher
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by HoseCrusher » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:17 pm

I have been looking at skewness and curtosis of the data. When looking at FFT information I think partial power would identify some aspects of breathing, but the data seems to jump around a bit. Using a neural network you may be able to come up with some identifying characteristics.

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-SWS
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by -SWS » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:24 pm

HoseCrusher wrote: Using a neural network you may be able to come up with some identifying characteristics.
Good call as they have been for a while:
http://www.google.com/search?q=apnea&ie ... 769f792670

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NotMuffy
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by NotMuffy » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:05 pm

-SWS wrote:
Mr Bill wrote: So, if these higher end boxes have decent CPU's and a little storage I think its entirely possible they are getting heartbeat and pulse frequency events as well as breathing volume and frequency.
Well, they're extracting most of those signal components alright... Otherwise we wouldn't have those graphs to discuss. Pulse frequency, however, cannot be reliably extracted throughout the night since cardiogenic oscillations do not reliably present in the flow-signal throughout the night.
Right, we'd need to do some sort of EKG analysis (R-R Interval), EKG - Pulse Oximetry Analysis (Pulse Transit Time) or Peripheral Vascular Assessment (Peripheral Arterial Tonometry).

But now the hardware is really starting to pile up in the bedroom.
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idamtnboy
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by idamtnboy » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:07 pm

-SWS, I just now noticed you have no equipment listed in your profile. Do you just want to keep that hidden for personal reasons, or are you an xPAP designer who is not on therapy? Based on the knowledge you display in your posts, and the quality of your answers, I'm beginning to think you are hip deep into the technical aspects of xPAP therapy. Or is xPAP technology just similar to what you work with every day? Just curious.

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idamtnboy
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by idamtnboy » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:24 pm

Man, I haven't confronted Fourier Transforms to any extent since college 45 years ago! As I recall the EEs just reveled in them, or hated them, no in-between! Skewness and kurtosis haven't been part of my vocab for many years after studying statistics in some MBA courses and in QA training sessions upwards of 25 years ago. Your guys' comments are very interesting. I wish I could keep up with you, but to do so would require more brain strain than I want to tolerate just to understand why I get such a good night's sleep with a hose stuck to my face!

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-SWS
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by -SWS » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:37 pm

Hey idamtnboy, over the years I have used Respirtonics, PB/Tyco, and Resmed machines. I currently use an S9 Auto to treat my garden-variety apnea. Despite being technically inclined I have absolutely no roots or experience in xPAP----other than as a patient.

I've been around the subject matter---as an apnea patient and on the message boards---for nearly half-an-eternity now...

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idamtnboy
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by idamtnboy » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:50 pm

-SWS wrote:Hey idamtnboy, over the years I have used Respirtonics, PB/Tyco, and Resmed machines. I currently use an S9 Auto to treat my garden-variety apnea. Despite being technically inclined I have absolutely no roots or experience in xPAP----other than as a patient.

I've been around the subject matter---as an apnea patient and on the message boards---for nearly half-an-eternity now...
Thanks. In this arena 6 years must feel almost like a whole eternity, not just half!

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NotMuffy
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by NotMuffy » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:49 am

gvz wrote:I am confused.

What happened to Fuscia?
Hard to say, really:

Don't Forget The...The...
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-SWS
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by -SWS » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:53 am

NotMuffy wrote:
gvz wrote:I am confused.

What happened to Fuscia?
Hard to say, really:

Don't Forget The...The...
Well, I finally took a detailed look at the FFL patent that LoQ found long ago (thanks, LoQ):
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/A ... 38040.html

Here are some of my initial impressions:
1) The purpose of the patent is to recognize and respond specifically to "M" shaped flow limitations (as inherently problematic to SDB)
2) The patent additionally looks to see if those "M" shaped flow limitations are augmented by "chair" shapes (a very tall left- or very tall right-peak on the "M")
3) The patent's logic does not preclude ancillary flow-limitation routines/logic from occurring that might be embodied in yet other designs/patent-descriptions
4) The patent employs a technique known as "fuzzy logic" toward "M" shaped and "chair" shaped flow-pattern recognition and severity comparisons
5) An "M" shaped inhalation (or "M" augmented by "chair") paired with reduced ventilation/volume will trigger a machine-pressure increase,
6) An "M" shaped inhalation (or "M" augmented by "chair") paired with increased inhale duty cycle (ratio of inhale time to overall breath time) will also trigger a machine-pressure increase

Here are some "fuzzy membership" type comparisons to give us a flavor of what's happening regarding FL severity comparisons:
- if (VERY_HIGH_FLATTENING AND LOW_VENTILATION) then FFL is "Mild-to-Moderate"
- if (EXTRA_HIGH_FLATTENING AND Ti-on-T tot _VERY__HIGH) then FFL is Moderate-to-Severe
- if (EXTRA_HIGH_MSHAPE AND Ti-on-T tot _VERY_HIGH) then FFL is Moderate- to-Severe
The patent logic will increase machine-pressure more for a "moderate-to-severe" FL shape than it will increase pressure for a "mild-to-moderate" FL shape.

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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by -SWS » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:36 pm

some yokel in the peanut gallery wrote:The patent's logic does not preclude ancillary flow-limitation routines/logic from occurring that might be embodied in yet other designs/patent-descriptions
This excerpt adds relevance to the above statement:
patent application WO/2008/138040 wrote:[0076] Although M-shaped breaths may be rare, it may still be desirable to develop further methods and devices for detecting flow-limitation and/or improve existing methods and devices.


Prior-generation ResScan used the nomenclature "flattening index" for that same ResScan graph line that is currently labeled "flow limitation". I believe at that time Resmed relied exclusively on what Resmed calls a "flattening index" (but without the "M" shaped FFL analysis occurring) for their pre-S9 flow limitation detection and treatment. Here's how Resmed defines their "flattening index":
patent application WO/2008/138040 wrote: A flattening index is a non-dimensional feature [e.g., a real number) calculated using a patient's inspiration waveform. It attempts to measure essentially how flat-topped the waveform is.
Resmed also offers what they call six "rare" scenarios in which that flattening index can fall short:
patent application WO/2008/138040 wrote: [0069] While a flattening index is an excellent measure of flow- limitation, it is designed to detect certain situations. However, in some particular implementations it has been observed not to address some rare situations. The following lists areas where we have made such observations:

[0070] 1. A five-breath moving average slows down the detection of flow-limitation. This is illustrated in FIG. 2. In FIG. 2, the top trace shows a plot of a traditional five-breath moving- average flattening index. The bottom trace shows a measure of respiratory flow. The patient begins to obstruct mildly and the flattening trace descends in staircase fashion at 202 due to the five-breath average. To the right of the graph the obstruction becomes more severe and progressively more "M" in shape. As shown, the flattening index eventually starts to reverse direction and increase rather than decrease with worsening obstruction.

[0071] 2. Because different inspiratory shapes can average to give a completely new shape, the five breath moving average can have consequences. This is illustrated in FIG. 3. FIG. 3 shows a sequence of so called, M-shaped obstructed breaths at 302 ending in an arousal at 304 followed by some reasonably normal recovery breaths at 306. As shown in the graph, both single- breath flattening and traditional flattening are high at the end of the sequence of M-breaths (the former getting to the maximum value quicker) and that after the arousal, traditional flattening actually falls below 0.1, not because the breaths are flattened, rather because the M-breaths averaged with the normal breaths to produce a pseudo-flat shape.

[0072] 3. The flattening index is not designed to detect M breaths. In fact, the flattening index goes high when M-shaped breaths occur. This is illustrated in Figs. 2 and 3.

[0073] 4. The flattening index can cause a pressure increase regardless of current ventilation or sleep state of the patient- user of the device.

[0074] 5. The heuristics applied to de-weight flattening might also result in under-treatment in some patients.

[0075] 6. The flattening index is subject to normal random variations that have consequences for the sensitivity and specificity of any algorithm that uses it to detect flow- limitation.
I'm fairly certain "flattening index" is still employed with the S9-generation machines in the real world, but the above "M" and "chair" shaped routines now take algorithmic/preemptive priority (over basic flow-flatness vs flow-roundness) regarding flow-limitation detection and treatment. And that can make for a significantly different machine response to a patient's FL compared to prior-generation AutoSet machines---but especially for patients who present "M" shaped flow limitations in significant numbers (with or without the "chair" shaped augmentation).

Despite the patent emphasis on "M" and "chair" shaped FL, the programming logic can still associate heightened FL severity with a more basic flat-shaped FL (FL without "M" characteristics):
- if (VERY_HIGH_FLATTENING AND LOW_VENTILATION) then FFL is "Mild-to-Moderate"
- if (EXTRA_HIGH_FLATTENING AND Ti-on-T tot _VERY__HIGH) then FFL is Moderate-to-Severe
- if (EXTRA_HIGH_MSHAPE AND Ti-on-T tot _VERY_HIGH) then FFL is Moderate- to-Severe
The red text refers to breaths scored with an extra-high flattening index but no "M" characteristics. So I believe the "M" shaped FFL routine in this patent serves to preemptively albeit partially address the above 6 shortcomings associated with the "flattening index".

Patent Application WO/2008/138040 under discussion: http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/A ... 38040.html

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LoQ
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by LoQ » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:25 pm

Are M breaths the same as breath stacking?

-SWS
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Re: Central Apneas and Respiratory Rate

Post by -SWS » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:19 pm

LoQ wrote:Are M breaths the same as breath stacking?
The short answer is no, LoQ...

Those M breaths discussed in the patent description result from partial upper-airway obstruction common to apnea and UARS. That type of M-shaped breath happens because of SDB closure dynamics occurring in the upper airway.

By contrast breath stacking is an uncoordinated breathing sequence. During breath-stacking, less than full exhalation occurs between inhalations because respiratory muscles are not properly sequencing breaths. So different muscle dynamics are involved with breath stacking than those of upper-airway flow limitations. But a slight breath stack can also look like an "M". I believe with breath stacking, a discrepancy between inhaled volume and exhaled volume often results---since expiratory air trapping often occurs in the case of breath stacking.

However, in the case of upper-airway flow limitation, there is no expiratory air trapping. So I think those two "M" breath scenarios can be differentiated based on comparing: 1) inspired volumes against subsequent expired volumes, and 2) noting flow reversals---since breath stacking can entail exhalation in the middle of the "M" whereas flow limitation is purely an inspiratory phenomenon.

Since your right-most "M" pattern below entails some fairly significant exhalation, it is clearly not an "M" shaped inspiratory flow limitation:

Image
viewtopic/t58711/Collection-of-Oddball- ... ml#p552766