Managing similarities between OSA and depression?

jskinner wrote:

SleepyT wrote:Is it possible that you have had OSA longer than you thought? And maybe the reason why your PCP didn't know what else to try meds wise...is because the OSA was causing it? I think many times we think we have only had OSA for the past couple of years...but it is so slow to develop..it is possible OSA caused breathing problems (and depression problems?) long before we were aware of it

Bingo. Depression isn't a disease, its a symptom. (At lot of people get angry at this idea for some reason, its not saying that depression is any less serious) If you are depressed you have to find the cause and threat that. IMHO antidepressants only mask the symptoms. (and sometimes not very well and often with many side effects)

Well, you said it better than I could....seems like I couldn't say what I was trying to say! I also think 4 months on CPAP isn't long enough to correct many of the problems with memory, depression, cognitive issues, etc. I'd say...give it more time!

Ok...so after the JSkinner post..I decided to google around about depression being a symptom...and found something interesting which I will attach here. But before I do...I want to mention that I have been fighting mild depression for a while...and its onset was OSA as best as I can tell. I have been on CPAP for 20 months..and I have been on the fence...wondering if I should try a low dose med...but I cannot seem to go that route.

Before the _hit hits the fan....I am not saying anything bad about anyone who is taking antidepressants. I'm not. I empathise and am pondering solutions...that's all. This article I found is against meds....but aside from that soapbox...it also mentions alternative treatments for depression which might be useful to some people. Always nice to have choices! Many of the alternatives have already been mentioned on this forum. Here goes...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-h ... 50098.html

Interesting article. I'm all for anyone being able to explore their options. We don't live in a "one size fits all" world. I will admit I am a skeptic at heart and wrinkled my nose when the author seemed to 'advertise'. But I'm not familiar with his work, so I can only assume so much.

Its fair to say I fall into the category of partially treated by meds. Nothing has ever made me feel 'normal' enough to keep taking it. I'd give up..... get to a place where I wanted treatment again and back to the doc I went. I probably haven't taken my celexa in weeks bc its effects are so minor I barely miss it.

Why do I feel like I've opened Pandora's Box?! I'm starting to really think that "good" is just a memory and I will have to settle for "bad" over "terrible". The lesser of 2 evils but nothing close to good. I started this journey to feel better, but feel like I'm sliding backwards.

There are quite a few psychiatrists in the USA who started out as ECT psychiatrists, AKA "shock docs." And got into sleep medicine. And now do both. The head of the sleep medicine department at Wake Forest University hospital in Winston Salem, NC is one of those. There are several at Duke psychiatry that do both ECT and sleep apnea medicine. Personally, I would not want anyone but a pulmonary trained sleep specialist managing my OSA, but that is me. Some might be fine having a psychiatrist manage both their OSA and their depression via ECT. Kind of a one stop shop deal.

I treated my OSA for years with psychopharmacology and blood pressure meds, which failed miserably. My "depression" symptoms improved dramatically after CPAP and my "depression" symptoms come back with a vengeance if my sleep therapy fails for whatever reason, chronic leaks, etc.

I wish I could have reversed things and started out treating my sleep apnea symptoms and then, if still needed, added anti-depressants. Instead, I did the reverse. I self referred myself to a psychiatrist, I knew nothing about sleep apnea back then. I thought I had a severe mood disorder, period, end of story.

I have given thought to having my OSA managed by a pulmonary specialist sleep doctor and then having my residual mood issues handled by ECT. I am still thinking on that one.

Mikey

jskinner wrote:

SleepyT wrote:Is it possible that you have had OSA longer than you thought? And maybe the reason why your PCP didn't know what else to try meds wise...is because the OSA was causing it? I think many times we think we have only had OSA for the past couple of years...but it is so slow to develop..it is possible OSA caused breathing problems (and depression problems?) long before we were aware of it

Bingo. Depression isn't a disease, its a symptom. (At lot of people get angry at this idea for some reason, its not saying that depression is any less serious) If you are depressed you have to find the cause and threat that. IMHO antidepressants only mask the symptoms. (and sometimes not very well and often with many side effects)

That is your opinion, not fact. Clinical depression is indeed an illness unto itself which can have no real psychological cause. It runs in families, its genetic. Saying depression is a symptoms and not a disease unto itself is coming from someone who either has never experienced clinical depression themselves or is in denial of the whole thing.

Mikey

Sleep apnea can also cause psychosis to develop. The military has long known that chronic sleep deprivation causes psychosis in even healthy, non mentally ill men. You sleep deprive someone long enough and I can pretty much guarantee they are going to have a mental breakdown. Intelligence agencies have also used severe sleep deprivation as a method of torture...they keep prisoners awake so long that they become afraid they are going to break down and become insane. Which is a real possibility if you are severely sleep deprived long enough.

Sleep apnea untreated destroys the brain, it destroys the cardiovascular system, it destroys about everything. Without sleep, you die.

Mikey

SnoozyQ wrote: Why do I feel like I've opened Pandora's Box?! I'm starting to really think that "good" is just a memory and I will have to settle for "bad" over "terrible". The lesser of 2 evils but nothing close to good. I started this journey to feel better, but feel like I'm sliding backwards.

One thing I have noticed with my mental health: Every time you treat something and get stronger, it seems like your body/mind says "Ok that is done, now lets see what else we have here you can now deal with!"

SnoozyQ wrote:....Why do I feel like I've opened Pandora's Box?! I'm starting to really think that "good" is just a memory and I will have to settle for "bad" over "terrible". The lesser of 2 evils but nothing close to good. I started this journey to feel better, but feel like I'm sliding backwards.

Don't feel like you opened a Pandora's box...I think one thought leads to another...and somehow we manage to find the answers we were looking for. Healthy discourse! Snoozy...I hope you don't give up on your journey. I wish you well! As for me, I have come to that fork in the road...and after all this discussion...I have decided to take the non-meds road. I will be signing up for blood tests and exploring the non-inflammatory foods thing more...see if I have vitamin deficiencies...etc. If all that fails....I may end up revisiting that fork in the road! Best of luck to you!

ResmedUser wrote:Clinical depression is indeed an illness unto itself which can have no real psychological cause.

That is your opinion, just as I have my opnions.

ResmedUser wrote:It runs in families, its genetic.

I would agree that it does fun in families and is sometimes a genetic predisposition but I wouldn't agree that its always genetic.

[quote="ResmedUser"Saying depression is a symptoms and not a disease unto itself is coming from someone who either has never experienced clinical depression themselves or is in denial of the whole thing.[/quote]

It too bad that you attack me like that without even knowing anything about my history...
I never understand why people get so defensive that I suggest that depression is a symptoms rather than a disease.
I still think depression is terrible, I'm not diminishing that by saying that (although I feel you took it that way)

jskinner wrote: Depression isn't a disease, its a symptom. (At lot of people get angry at this idea for some reason, its not saying that depression is any less serious) If you are depressed you have to find the cause and threat that. IMHO antidepressants only mask the symptoms. (and sometimes not very well and often with many side effects)

I do not want to start an argument or a discussion of different points of view of depression. I just have one question. Have you personally ever experienced long-lasting (not situational) depression that had a debilitating effect on your quality of life?

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jbn3boys wrote:I do not want to start an argument or a discussion of different points of view of depression. I just have one question. Have you personally ever experienced long-lasting (not situational) depression that had a debilitating effect on your quality of life?

Yes on and off for over ten years. Was put on almost every known anti-depressant during that time. Several leaves from work as a result.

jskinner wrote:

jbn3boys wrote:I do not want to start an argument or a discussion of different points of view of depression. I just have one question. Have you personally ever experienced long-lasting (not situational) depression that had a debilitating effect on your quality of life?

Yes on and off for over ten years. Was put on almost every known anti-depressant during that time. Several leaves from work as a result.

Then you are indeed a rare breed. Most people that I have encountered who are anti-meds for depression are people who have never personally experienced debilitating, long-lasting depression, and do not realize the impact it can have on their lives and their families. I will read what you have to say in light of the fact that you have personal experience with depression.

jskinner wrote:

jbn3boys wrote:I do not want to start an argument or a discussion of different points of view of depression. I just have one question. Have you personally ever experienced long-lasting (not situational) depression that had a debilitating effect on your quality of life?

Yes on and off for over ten years. Was put on almost every known anti-depressant during that time. Several leaves from work as a result.

Then that begs the question....how did you overcome it? I see your smiling face instead of some random avatar....you look happy enough to me! Give me hope! Did you solve it thru vitamins, exercise, good nutrition...talk therapy? I'd like to think I will be able to do the same...

SleepyT wrote:Then that begs the question....how did you overcome it?

For me the major cause seems to have been sleep disordered breathing. Treated that and the depression went away. (fingers crossed) Also had low B12 at one point which seemed to be a factor.

I'm very curious why there was such a strong reaction to my idea that depression is a symptom rather than a disease? I don't see how that idea changes anything about how terrible depression is. I have encountered this reaction a lot when I suggest it and ever quite understood the reaction. Do people think that calling it a symptom is some how dismissing its seriousness? I certainly don't believe that.