Congress Passes Socialized Medicine & Mandates

cpapdisco wrote:
I personally believe that a person's right to live in good health is irrelevant of their ability to pay for it.

I am assuming you did not really mean what you typed. Babies are born every day with horrible genetic conditions and will never live in good health. Many of them live short tortured lives and die without having lived one minute in good health. Many children develop incurable diseases and never live another healthy day regardless of their families' ability to pay.

May I assume you meant to type,

"I personally believe that every person has a right to good medical care regardless of their ability to pay for it."

If you did mean this, have you thought it through to logical consequences? Have you thought that if people do have this "right" then rights must be taken away from others? For instance, some people must become doctors, nurses, medical technicians, medical researchers, pharmacists, hospital operators, etc. These people must then work for no financial reward on behalf of those who have the "right" to good medical care but can't pay.

Or to pay these in the medical field you must deny others who have earned money their right to keep it for their own use.

What do you say to these people? Do you say I will take away your God-given right to choose what occupation you want and to seek what salary you can achieve? Do you say I will tax you and take part of your money to help someone else? Or do you pour your own earned money into charities offering medical care for people who cannot pay?

You can say that good medical care for every person is something you would like to achieve and I will say this also. But it is not logical to say it is a right.

NightMonkey wrote:But it is not logical to say it is a right.

In many countries, access to good healthcare for all citizens is regarded as an essential hallmark of being a civilised society, and as such is effectively a basic right of that society.

Cheers,

Bill

Everyone will not be treated the same:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/bel ... -obamacare

You know, I'm rather curious what these union health and retirement benefits cost a company AS COMPARED TO the perks, benefits, salaries, etc. of the CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and other top level management of these same companies.

billbolton wrote:

NightMonkey wrote:But it is not logical to say it is a right.

In many countries, access to good healthcare for all citizens is regarded as an essential hallmark of being a civilised society, and as such is effectively a basic right of that society.

Cheers,

Bill

So you admit access to good medical care is not a right but you call it a right anyway?

This is typical corrupt political tactics. The tactic of repeating a lie over and over. Having heard it so often, eventually many people will believe it to be true. Especially people educated in government schools thereby lacking in critical thinking skills.

Slinky wrote:You know, I'm rather curious what these union health and retirement benefits cost a company AS COMPARED TO the perks, benefits, salaries, etc. of the CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and other top level management of these same companies.

I don't know but I have a feeling if you don't belong to one of the organizations on the list your insurance premiums is going up big time.

I have to agree with NightMonkey on the schools. They are nothing more than public indoctrination centers that are hell bent on teaching kids WHAT to think,and not HOW to think. The seven or eight levels of administrative overhead in every state just want to push the socialist agenda. That's their entire goal. And, they will do anything they can to limit a parent's rights and put themselves in charge of your child's upbringing. It's called brainwashing, and it's working.

NightMonkey wrote:

billbolton wrote:

NightMonkey wrote:But it is not logical to say it is a right.

In many countries, access to good healthcare for all citizens is regarded as an essential hallmark of being a civilised society, and as such is effectively a basic right of that society.

Cheers,

Bill

So you admit access to good medical care is not a right but you call it a right anyway?

This is typical corrupt political tactics. The tactic of repeating a lie over and over. Having heard it so often, eventually many people will believe it to be true. Especially people educated in government schools thereby lacking in critical thinking skills.

NightMonkey, did you notice billbolton is an Aussie, not a US resident? They think differently. In fact people in many nations think differently than we (especially conservatives) do. What you call corrupt political tactics isn't that in the least in most other nations around the world. Bill said, "... an essential hallmark of being a civilised society, ..." That hallmark is held in such high regard that in effect it transforms access to good healthcare into a right. That is what they believe. Just because you do not share that belief does not make it a lie born out of corrupt political tactics.

There are nations around the world whose hierarchy of social priorities places delivery of medical care to their fellow citizens well above the importance of multi-million dollar compensation packages for corporate moguls. The hallmark of this nation has been, and still is for many, "Every man for himself," not, "We are all in this together." That is what divides the anti-Obamacare crowd from the pro-Obamacare crowd.

idamtnboy wrote:... There are nations around the world whose hierarchy of social priorities places delivery of medical care to their fellow citizens well above the importance of multi-million dollar compensation packages for corporate moguls. The hallmark of this nation has been, and still is for many, "Every man for himself," not, "We are all in this together." That is what divides the anti-Obamacare crowd from the pro-Obamacare crowd.

So true, idamtnboy! I've long wished I'd kept the article regarding the ratio between upper echelon personnel and hourly worker compensation in the USA vs that same ratio in Japan, Germany, etc. The upper echelon in the USA ratio to hourly compensation was dramatically higher than in those nations. Greed is rampant in the USA in line w/that in third world countries. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and to h*ll w/the middle class. And THAT is the reason the standard of living in the USA is being dragged down to the most common denominator elsewhere in the world.

First off the CEO's are there for a reason because they are successful and running, or turning over a business, I think alot of CORP's over pay with the benefits to CEO, and stuff (mainly the benefits they get after just 1 year) But on the other hand, most of those corps are publicly traded, which means ultimately its up to the stockholders to control that (by who they elect, and stuff like that). Now would you try and get as much as you can get when you get a new job? I know I do. Also do you think actors get paid to much too? and sports players?

idamtnboy wrote:
There are nations around the world whose hierarchy of social priorities places delivery of medical care to their fellow citizens well above the importance of multi-million dollar compensation packages for corporate moguls. The hallmark of this nation has been, and still is for many, "Every man for himself," not, "We are all in this together." That is what divides the anti-Obamacare crowd from the pro-Obamacare crowd.

What divides the two "crowds" is politicians. Government involvement in decision making for us creates winners and losers. This is what causes conflict. A free market eliminates conflict. We don't have conflict over which brand of, say, televisions is best for society. That is because the market allows individuals to choose which brand to buy.

At the moment I am free to use which doctor or hospital I choose as long as I pay. There is no conflict. No one argues about my choice, protests my choice, or tries to stop me from exercising my choice. I am using the market to choose.

Once Obamacare is implemented many, many medical care choices will be made for us through the promulgation of tens of thousand of rules (which become law). Then will come a huge conflict and you will soon find all sides are more unhappy with the system that today.

BTW, are you using a dial-up to get to this website? Do you not get any news in Idaho?

Do you know our Federal debt is over $14 trillion and growing rapidly? Our Federal deficit is $1.3 trillion and growing? Our total U.S. debt is over $55 trillion.

The total debt per family is $681,000 while savings per family is $7,800?

That many states will be bankrupt in the next five years?

That the growth in entitlement spending over the next ten years will overshadow the serious problems we have today?

That we have more than 50,000 soldiers in Germany, 30,000 in Japan, 9,000 in Britain. Do you know why they cannot pay for their own defense?

Do you know that Obamacare will accelerate the cost of medical insurance and medical care? Do you know that it does nothing to address the shortage of doctors (besides running many of them into retirement)? Do you know if makes deep cuts in Medicare and many doctors and hospitals will be dropping Medicare patients?

Do you know your generation and you have lived well and continue to live well off borrowed money that you will never pay back? Do you know that my generation will be the first one in the history of the country to be less prosperous because you stole the money from us by borrowing? Do you know that my generation is paying $3.5 trillion of interest on the debt you irresponsible and selfishly created? This is interest alone.

Do you know that a society does not get something just because it wants it? Do you know it has to earn it?

Do you know none of us will live to see good medical care for everyone because of our country’s extremely poor financial condition?

Do you know that our President gave a state-of-the-Union speech this week in which there was not one mention of the Federal debt or the unemployment rate? Do you know that I consider that speech a criminal act of negligence against our nation?

dave01978 wrote:... Also do you think actors get paid to much too? and sports players?

MOST DEFINITELY they are!!!

Slinky wrote:

dave01978 wrote:... Also do you think actors get paid to much too? and sports players?

MOST DEFINITELY they are!!!

So you guys propose what? A central elite in Washington deciding salaries for the country?

You guys are treading close to ... you know what.

Let individuals decide whether they want to pay to see high salaried actors and athletes. No one forces you to go to a movie or a professional athletic event.

If you don't go to the games that is just fine. But it is none of your business interfering with how others want to spend their money.

NightMonkey wrote:

Slinky wrote:

dave01978 wrote:... Also do you think actors get paid to much too? and sports players?

MOST DEFINITELY they are!!!

So you guys propose what? A central elite in Washington deciding salaries for the country?

You guys are treading close to ... you know what.

Let individuals decide whether they want to pay to see high salaried actors and athletes. No one forces you to go to a movie or a professional athletic event.

If you don't go to the games that is just fine. But it is none of your business interfering with how others want to spend their money.

I am hoping you are not including me in that comment? as I was using that as an example, that many people dont feel is a problem. Personally if someone wants to pay them whatever they should get that.

Ahh, but you see "I" don't go to the theater any more. The last theater movie I saw was either True Grit w/John Wayne or The Hunt for Red October. Or maybe Coma.

The only professional baseball game I ever attended was Bat Day for a Detroit Tigers double-header bus excursion on a date w/my now husband. (We've been married approaching 47 years). Never been to a professional football game. Nor soccer. Nor basketball. Nor hockey. etc., etc.

I do like HIGH SCHOOL wrestling. Not that sham they carry on TV and used to offer locally at our civic center. I "am" guilty of paying for hardback and paperback books by my favorite authors and they certainly make a good living!! I "am" guilty of watching the New England Patriots football games on TV. I "am" guilty of watching some limited TV. I "am" guilty of voting in each election - if for no other reason than to protect my right to "b*tch".