Lori, I've been reading this forum for a week or so now and really thank you for your terrific posts. You seem like a very well-informed and articulate person and I appreciate all your help!
I take the Alluna on nights where I must sleep well, e.g. important early-morning meetings. I do not want to become reliant on anything in order to sleep.
Would be curious to hear others' experiences with Alluna.
sleeping pills
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Sleepless on LI
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walleyek,
Oh, my goodness, you are so welcome. I am always so happy to hear that what I write may have some impact on others. They are just opinions, of course, and observations, but thank you. This site is loaded with people who are far more knowledgable than myself and I always defer to them when it comes to something more than either what I've learned from them or an opinon based on personal experience. But that is the beauty if this site, that so many people with so many different "talents," shall we say, come together and share it all for the good of the other members who are in need of help, or even their compassion to just be a shoulder to lean on if need be.
I, too, would be interested in hearing how others who have taken Alluna find it. Like I said, I had never even heard of it before your post. Thanks for sharing it with us all.
Oh, my goodness, you are so welcome. I am always so happy to hear that what I write may have some impact on others. They are just opinions, of course, and observations, but thank you. This site is loaded with people who are far more knowledgable than myself and I always defer to them when it comes to something more than either what I've learned from them or an opinon based on personal experience. But that is the beauty if this site, that so many people with so many different "talents," shall we say, come together and share it all for the good of the other members who are in need of help, or even their compassion to just be a shoulder to lean on if need be.
I, too, would be interested in hearing how others who have taken Alluna find it. Like I said, I had never even heard of it before your post. Thanks for sharing it with us all.
L o R i
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rock and roll
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Ambian does seem to be the sleeping pill of choice for those with SA. But Lunesta is coming on strong. Dependance or not there are some jobs that require us to get a good sleep or we put ourselves and others at risk. I envy those who don'r require help in sleeping. Or those that have herbs or Tylenol PM help enough. Then there are those of us that just can't sleep if you were to knock us up side the head. I drive the highways on the average of 65,000 miles a year, sometimes more. And I do this in south Texas where I go through mile after mile of ranch land with no sights to see to break the monotony. I have no choice but to take sleep aids and even then 20 mg of Ambian barely knocks me out and then only for a couple of hours. I am trying Lunesta now with very limited success. When I get sleep because of these aids and cpap, I am fine though I do have to play that horrible rap music on the radio sometimes to keep me alert. But if I don't... don't drive near me. It's a fact and I could care less if I am dependant or not. It saves my life and others. I have been to many doctors and have had lots of tests, I just am one of those they can't explain. And I was like this long before pills and rebound effects so it's not that. The Golite sun light helps some as well. I also have had to go under for surgery and other procedures and they have trouble getting me down and staying down. I came awake having a colonoscopy two years ago...now that was an experience
I used to take Ambien and it worked very well when I suffered from terrible insomnia last year. Unfortunately I experience terrible short term memory loss that severely interfered with my cognitive thinking. Work suffered tremendously.
I have tried Lunesta and OCCASIONALLY use it with very good results. I emphasize the word occasionally...hence the capitol letters. How the FDA can approve this drug for long term use is absolutely ludicrous.
Again, I use it once or twice per week before a big meeting, or something very important where I MUST have a good night sleep.
I just want to make people aware who might not otherwise understand what makes all of these sleeping pills addictive.
The reason Ambien, Temazepam and YES Lunesta too are addictive is well understood and every doctor should have learned it in pre-med.
Here's why:
GAB-A is the most common inhibitory neurotransmitter in the body and brain. Inhibitory means its like a braking system where dopamine and epinephrine are like the accelerator. If you increase or sensitize the neural receptors for GABA-A in certain parts of the brain, you are calmed and sleep more easily. If you decrease or de-sensitize the receptor you get anxious, nervous and its hard to sleep.
Alcohol and Xyrem simulate GABA-A so its like you have more and are calmed. Barbiturates attach to a subunit on the GABA-A receptor and act to increase sensitivity so you are calmed. Benzodiazepines, Ambien, Lunesta and Sonata attach to the Benzodiazepine subunit and also sensitize and calm you. So they all work in the same end manner by enhancing the GABA-A and calm you. All doctors and drug companies understand this quite well.
When any of these are taken over along period, the GABA-A system adapts to try and return to what it believes is normal trying to balance out the drug effects. Once it does after months, you have a tolerance and you need a larger dose to get the same effect. If you take a larger dose for months, the system will simply adapt to the new level. Now you need the dose just to be what used to be normal = calm and not anxious. Some of the drugs like Ambien, Sonata and Lunesta are more selective and affect only certain types of GABA-A subunits in the brain that impact sleep so are called hypnotics. The more selective they are, the shorter the half life, the lower the dose and the less frequent its taken, the slower the body adapts. BUT it still does! Even Ambien with its short half life (2hrs) and very selective will result in the eventual adaption. Lunesta is less selective and has a 6hr half life so is worse. Strong long half life Benzos like Klonopin are the worst in how short it takes to adapt for comparable dose strength (10mg Ambien = 3mg Lunesta = .25mg Klonopin = .25mg Xanax etc...)
Once significant adaption has occurred, you are physically addicted. If you stop the drug, once it wears off ( after a few half lives) the anxiety starts coming up since the GABA-A system inhibition is suddenly reduced. The adaption is exposed. It took months to adapt and will take months to un-adapt. During the first few weeks the anxiety and insomnia are horrific and many odd withdrawal effects occur since GABA-A does more than just calm. If this happens with a short half life drug like Ambien, Lunesta or Xanax, the drug will wear off by the next afternoon and the withdrawal symptoms will begin EVERY DAY until you take the nightly sleep dose. This will make you feel anxious and sick every day. You will likely believe these are sleep deprivation symptoms or you have some other illness. Depending on the dose and length of time any of these symptoms may ocurr:
Please understand that I am not trying to scare anyone. I take these sparingly because i like R&R am one of those that the docs just could not do much for with the exception of prescribing me one of the above mentioned sleep aides.
R&R you mentioned the light therapy. Does it seem to help?
Kirk
I have tried Lunesta and OCCASIONALLY use it with very good results. I emphasize the word occasionally...hence the capitol letters. How the FDA can approve this drug for long term use is absolutely ludicrous.
Again, I use it once or twice per week before a big meeting, or something very important where I MUST have a good night sleep.
I just want to make people aware who might not otherwise understand what makes all of these sleeping pills addictive.
The reason Ambien, Temazepam and YES Lunesta too are addictive is well understood and every doctor should have learned it in pre-med.
Here's why:
GAB-A is the most common inhibitory neurotransmitter in the body and brain. Inhibitory means its like a braking system where dopamine and epinephrine are like the accelerator. If you increase or sensitize the neural receptors for GABA-A in certain parts of the brain, you are calmed and sleep more easily. If you decrease or de-sensitize the receptor you get anxious, nervous and its hard to sleep.
Alcohol and Xyrem simulate GABA-A so its like you have more and are calmed. Barbiturates attach to a subunit on the GABA-A receptor and act to increase sensitivity so you are calmed. Benzodiazepines, Ambien, Lunesta and Sonata attach to the Benzodiazepine subunit and also sensitize and calm you. So they all work in the same end manner by enhancing the GABA-A and calm you. All doctors and drug companies understand this quite well.
When any of these are taken over along period, the GABA-A system adapts to try and return to what it believes is normal trying to balance out the drug effects. Once it does after months, you have a tolerance and you need a larger dose to get the same effect. If you take a larger dose for months, the system will simply adapt to the new level. Now you need the dose just to be what used to be normal = calm and not anxious. Some of the drugs like Ambien, Sonata and Lunesta are more selective and affect only certain types of GABA-A subunits in the brain that impact sleep so are called hypnotics. The more selective they are, the shorter the half life, the lower the dose and the less frequent its taken, the slower the body adapts. BUT it still does! Even Ambien with its short half life (2hrs) and very selective will result in the eventual adaption. Lunesta is less selective and has a 6hr half life so is worse. Strong long half life Benzos like Klonopin are the worst in how short it takes to adapt for comparable dose strength (10mg Ambien = 3mg Lunesta = .25mg Klonopin = .25mg Xanax etc...)
Once significant adaption has occurred, you are physically addicted. If you stop the drug, once it wears off ( after a few half lives) the anxiety starts coming up since the GABA-A system inhibition is suddenly reduced. The adaption is exposed. It took months to adapt and will take months to un-adapt. During the first few weeks the anxiety and insomnia are horrific and many odd withdrawal effects occur since GABA-A does more than just calm. If this happens with a short half life drug like Ambien, Lunesta or Xanax, the drug will wear off by the next afternoon and the withdrawal symptoms will begin EVERY DAY until you take the nightly sleep dose. This will make you feel anxious and sick every day. You will likely believe these are sleep deprivation symptoms or you have some other illness. Depending on the dose and length of time any of these symptoms may ocurr:
Please understand that I am not trying to scare anyone. I take these sparingly because i like R&R am one of those that the docs just could not do much for with the exception of prescribing me one of the above mentioned sleep aides.
R&R you mentioned the light therapy. Does it seem to help?
Kirk
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rock and roll
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- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:30 pm
- Location: Texas
Kirk
That was a very educational recap of sleeping pills, though I must say, I can stop taking Ambian with no side effects at all, don't feel sick, not anxious, and have gone from 20 mg to none several times. But I never follow the norms. But I must say that there are times I would take dependant over tossing all night and not being able to perform the next day, and just wait for the next newer and improved pill. Like my doctor says, I have a body that does not work right and as long as we can treat it why live miserable.
Yes, my imsomnia worsens with the onset of winter, even in Texas. If I read under the light for a half hour before going to bed, it helps. The Golite is the best and is small and travels well. Cost is under $199 if you shop the internet. I am a night owl with a day time job. I can sleep pretty easy during daylight hours. But the world operates at daylight so I must conform.
That was a very educational recap of sleeping pills, though I must say, I can stop taking Ambian with no side effects at all, don't feel sick, not anxious, and have gone from 20 mg to none several times. But I never follow the norms. But I must say that there are times I would take dependant over tossing all night and not being able to perform the next day, and just wait for the next newer and improved pill. Like my doctor says, I have a body that does not work right and as long as we can treat it why live miserable.
Yes, my imsomnia worsens with the onset of winter, even in Texas. If I read under the light for a half hour before going to bed, it helps. The Golite is the best and is small and travels well. Cost is under $199 if you shop the internet. I am a night owl with a day time job. I can sleep pretty easy during daylight hours. But the world operates at daylight so I must conform.
Thanks R&R, I am thinking of picking one of those up, I guess it uses Bluelight which appears to be more effective than some of the other ambient lighting currently being used.
I live in Cheeseland so the sun is just about to disappear until July.LOL.
I like you wait for the next new drug and I have read about some promising new entries going through phase three trials. I remember reading about Lunesta for about a year and then discovered that it was nothing more than Zoplicone available in Canada and parts of Europe since 89.
I will give the Golite a try, hell it can't hurt ,I've tried everything else.
Good night sir.
I've got a Restoril with my name on it...Unfortunately.
Kirk
I live in Cheeseland so the sun is just about to disappear until July.LOL.
I like you wait for the next new drug and I have read about some promising new entries going through phase three trials. I remember reading about Lunesta for about a year and then discovered that it was nothing more than Zoplicone available in Canada and parts of Europe since 89.
I will give the Golite a try, hell it can't hurt ,I've tried everything else.
Good night sir.
I've got a Restoril with my name on it...Unfortunately.
Kirk
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rock and roll
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- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:30 pm
- Location: Texas
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christinequilts
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:06 pm
R&R-
Have you considered trying Rozerem? It was approved this summer- it works totally differently then Ambien/Sonata/Lunesta/etc...so different that it is not a scheduled med like the other sleep meds are. I've been trying it out and I've been impressed with the results so far. My only hesitation is that I've had more nausea at night, but I can't say if its from the Rozerem or not, since I have gastroparesis (chronic nausea & vomiting severe enough I'm on a feeding tube for); plus I was antibiotics for the first couple weeks I was on it. The nice thing is since Rozerem is a completely different class/type of sleep med, so you can use ambien/Sonota/Lunesta in addition, if needed. My sleep doctor wants me to experiment with what works best for me with Rozerem as my main sleep med & lunesta or sonota as a backup plan, depending on how much longer I have to sleep; At the end of November, they will do another sleep study to see how the meds affect sleep stages & such, along with my CSA to see if there is anything else they could do to improve me sleep.
I wish I didn't have to take sleep meds but with an AHI of 30 on my BiPAP ST, my sleep is still pretty fragmented. My sleep doctor explained, that with CSA, the reason they recommend sleep meds are to keep me from waking during an apnea since BiPAP ST can't prevent all centrals- it can only react when it senses one to try to get me to breath again.
Have you considered trying Rozerem? It was approved this summer- it works totally differently then Ambien/Sonata/Lunesta/etc...so different that it is not a scheduled med like the other sleep meds are. I've been trying it out and I've been impressed with the results so far. My only hesitation is that I've had more nausea at night, but I can't say if its from the Rozerem or not, since I have gastroparesis (chronic nausea & vomiting severe enough I'm on a feeding tube for); plus I was antibiotics for the first couple weeks I was on it. The nice thing is since Rozerem is a completely different class/type of sleep med, so you can use ambien/Sonota/Lunesta in addition, if needed. My sleep doctor wants me to experiment with what works best for me with Rozerem as my main sleep med & lunesta or sonota as a backup plan, depending on how much longer I have to sleep; At the end of November, they will do another sleep study to see how the meds affect sleep stages & such, along with my CSA to see if there is anything else they could do to improve me sleep.
I wish I didn't have to take sleep meds but with an AHI of 30 on my BiPAP ST, my sleep is still pretty fragmented. My sleep doctor explained, that with CSA, the reason they recommend sleep meds are to keep me from waking during an apnea since BiPAP ST can't prevent all centrals- it can only react when it senses one to try to get me to breath again.
sleep meds
This is a bit unrelated to apnea, but shows the problem with sleep meds in the elderly:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 220717.htm
I have seen many older patients come in with a sleeping pill rx. They complain about not getting sleep, but forget the morning nap and afternoon snooze.
They take them - particularly the early bzd- dalmane and restoril.
The drugs accumulate and cause daytime sedation and they slip and break a hip and die from pneumonia from lying in bed.
This happens far more than one would think.
Damn- My bulldogs just lost a heartbreaker to Auburn.
I'm gonna cry.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 220717.htm
I have seen many older patients come in with a sleeping pill rx. They complain about not getting sleep, but forget the morning nap and afternoon snooze.
They take them - particularly the early bzd- dalmane and restoril.
The drugs accumulate and cause daytime sedation and they slip and break a hip and die from pneumonia from lying in bed.
This happens far more than one would think.
Damn- My bulldogs just lost a heartbreaker to Auburn.
I'm gonna cry.
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rock and roll
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:30 pm
- Location: Texas
I would just like to add a couple of points to this discussion.
First of all, with regards to Tylenol PM. As said, the sleep ingredient in this medication is diphenhydramine. This is also the active ingredient in Gravol.
I had problems with sleeping after a head injury in a car accident. Apparently this is a common effect of head injuries - disruption in sleep. It was decided that the effects of lack of sleep outweighed concerns with taking any sleep meds, and I was put on a mild dose of Xanax at night which has helped alot. I queried sedating meds with sleep apnea, and got the impression that it can be a problem if the apnea is not being treated.
Having said that, I would not take any sedating medication at night without the okay of a doctor who knows about sleep apnea.
Frances
First of all, with regards to Tylenol PM. As said, the sleep ingredient in this medication is diphenhydramine. This is also the active ingredient in Gravol.
I had problems with sleeping after a head injury in a car accident. Apparently this is a common effect of head injuries - disruption in sleep. It was decided that the effects of lack of sleep outweighed concerns with taking any sleep meds, and I was put on a mild dose of Xanax at night which has helped alot. I queried sedating meds with sleep apnea, and got the impression that it can be a problem if the apnea is not being treated.
Having said that, I would not take any sedating medication at night without the okay of a doctor who knows about sleep apnea.
Frances
I was given Rozerem as an antidepressent. My doctor thought it would be a good choice because of my insomnia. I can't tolerate ambien. It did put me to sleep but I was out cold and apparently was still awake and talking to my hubby. I don't like a drug that makes me not remember things. The other sleep meds I have had all gave me that daytime somnulance effect which made me nap and then made the nighttime insomnia worse. Rozerem seems to help a lot.
I also use the lights. I don't use a blue version. Research the various strengths of light and such. You want 10,000 lux to be therapuetic.
I got mine for around $150. I definately have a seasonal thing going. Technically, you are supposed to use the light in the daytime to help your body learn that it is daytime. It isn't supposed to be used right before bed as your telling your body that it is daytime. Ideally, use it to eat breakfast or lunch by.
Wikipedia has a good article on all sorts of light therapy. Scroll part way down for specifics on insomnia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_therapy
I also use the lights. I don't use a blue version. Research the various strengths of light and such. You want 10,000 lux to be therapuetic.
I got mine for around $150. I definately have a seasonal thing going. Technically, you are supposed to use the light in the daytime to help your body learn that it is daytime. It isn't supposed to be used right before bed as your telling your body that it is daytime. Ideally, use it to eat breakfast or lunch by.
Wikipedia has a good article on all sorts of light therapy. Scroll part way down for specifics on insomnia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_therapy
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Guest
This is in response to Kirk's post. I agree that people should know that sleep medications can be addictive (by the way, I don't get any withdrawal effects in the day from taking Xanax at night). However, I think people also need to realize that the effects of sleep deprivation are not to be taken lightly either.
After reading R & R's post and his struggle with sleep, it made me think about why we are so adverse to becoming dependent on certain medications. Diabetics are dependent on insulin and we realize that they need it. But if someone has something like depression or a sleeping problem, most people worry about dependence on medication to treat these problems. Interesting.
After reading R & R's post and his struggle with sleep, it made me think about why we are so adverse to becoming dependent on certain medications. Diabetics are dependent on insulin and we realize that they need it. But if someone has something like depression or a sleeping problem, most people worry about dependence on medication to treat these problems. Interesting.
Well, I think there is a difference there. We are all of us dependent on insulin. Diabetics just can't make there own so they have to inject it. But healthy people all use insulin the same way they do - digesting meals, etc.
Depression is also similar. Depressed people don't take up the various brain chemicals that normal people do. However, most depression isn't permanent like diabetes (type 1 anyway) is.
So, its an interesting question. I definately use medications and my life is better for it. But I would love if my body gets back to working like a healthy persons body and so I attempt to use natural methods like the lamps for depression as well as for attempting to help my insomnia by reseting my circadian rythms.
Each of us is different and will have different needs. Though, our needs over time is also likely to be different and that is why too many medications may get in the way - at some point your looking at artificially regulated brain chemicals from these drugs. Knowing this, we still have to take our individual lives and needs into account. It is part of being an informad and proactive patient.
Depression is also similar. Depressed people don't take up the various brain chemicals that normal people do. However, most depression isn't permanent like diabetes (type 1 anyway) is.
So, its an interesting question. I definately use medications and my life is better for it. But I would love if my body gets back to working like a healthy persons body and so I attempt to use natural methods like the lamps for depression as well as for attempting to help my insomnia by reseting my circadian rythms.
Each of us is different and will have different needs. Though, our needs over time is also likely to be different and that is why too many medications may get in the way - at some point your looking at artificially regulated brain chemicals from these drugs. Knowing this, we still have to take our individual lives and needs into account. It is part of being an informad and proactive patient.
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Leonbergergirl
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- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:13 pm
Whatever doesn't work...:idea: .
After struggling with my mask for 3 nights in a row (until 3:00 and 6:00 am),
last night i switched to my old Activa; inserted Polident where it leaks the most;
taped the hose up over my head--ended up taped to my hair (very painful this
morning); Velcroed another tape from the bottom back strap to the top one so it
would stop sitting on top of my head in a useless heap; tied a red fleece vertically
around the mess as a hopeful chin strap; taped my mouth completely shut with
my new painter's blue masking tape, and........
slept the night.
Or was it the Oxycodone i had taken for hip replacement surgery pain?
Wish i could give up on stupid useless masks and just rely on heavy-duty drugs--
how long can that last? [Do NOT flame me: i am desperate!]
Poor pooped Leonbergergirl
last night i switched to my old Activa; inserted Polident where it leaks the most;
taped the hose up over my head--ended up taped to my hair (very painful this
morning); Velcroed another tape from the bottom back strap to the top one so it
would stop sitting on top of my head in a useless heap; tied a red fleece vertically
around the mess as a hopeful chin strap; taped my mouth completely shut with
my new painter's blue masking tape, and........
slept the night.
Or was it the Oxycodone i had taken for hip replacement surgery pain?
Wish i could give up on stupid useless masks and just rely on heavy-duty drugs--
how long can that last? [Do NOT flame me: i am desperate!]
Poor pooped Leonbergergirl