FREEDOM From Apnoea And Cpap Machine !!!!!

chopper999 wrote:

Julie wrote:Fifty percent of people who've started Cpap and don't continue on it "fail" because they haven't been properly shown how to use the machine, and/or get fitted for individually appropriate masks in their size, as well as not been helped through psychologically hard times regarding claustrophobia, worries about wearing masks in the presence of bed partners, all kinds of issues, let alone being told it's "illegal" for them to dare change their own pressure on the machine, as well as not knowing the software would allow them to not have to do new studies every year and to learn how to read daily results for themselves. Nothing to do with anything else!

Either way you cut it and for what ever reasons it is still a 50% fail rate - that's a hell of a lot of people losing a hell of a lot of dough - it not all a bed of roses in 'cpap world' not by a long shot indeed.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

And your kind off posts creates even more resistance and wastes time for people in denial. In fact it is dangerous and irresponsible.

Even the Buteyko instructor in the video says not to stop using CPAP until the absence of apneas is confirmed by "observed breathing." The only reliable "observed breathing" is a sleep study. Absent a sleep study confirming the absence of apneas (and significant hypopneas), further discussion is pointless and, as stated in the Buteyko video, one should NOT STOP using CPAP. It is reckless and irresponsible to suggest or imply otherwise.

I would just say this to all the 'other' means of resolving OSA/etc......
The ONLY valid scientific, clinical proof of effective treatment and resolution is a sleep study AND, if necessary, pulmonary efficiency tests. Empirical data. And for me, personally? The biggie is a second by second pulse oximetry graph of SpO2 from the time I lay my head down to the time I get up. Better yet, a 24 study. Any desats IMHO blow the treatment efficacy out the window like a cannon. The desats KILL. They don't just make you sleepy during the day.

chopper999 wrote:
G'day Allen -

I started my 5 day Butekyo course on Tuesday 28th of september it is now the 10th of October - I have been practising the Butekyo exercises for 12 days straight - there is nothing wrong with my maths - this is not an AD - and why on earth would you want to fly to Australia from the U.S.A. when you can find a Butekyo practitioner in America. -

http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/BP_AMER.htm

By the way if I spend a couple of grand buying a cpap machine and all the other stuff that goes with it only to find out I am in the 50% that it does not work for - DO I GET MY MONEY BACK -NO SIR I DON'T!!!

I really hope the other gentleman from Australia who said he was gonna do the course really does do it and then posts back here and confirms that I did indeed do the 5 day course because he will have the same teacher as me because we live in the same area of Australia.

Brian Firth the teacher in the video link I posted WILL CONFIRM THIS . - http://www.buteykohealth.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=36

All it's gonna take is 1 more person from the 59.500 members of this site to do a Butekyo course and post their results here - cause it seems to me that no matter what I say or what results I POST ON HERE IN THE FUTURE - NO ONE WILL BELEIVE ME !!!!

When someone else posts positve results from doing the Butekyo course on this forum - I am gonna laugh my head off at all you peolpe who keep accusing me of lying and postings AD'S amoung other things.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

No, you have been practicing for 7 days, not 12. You can't be practicing while in class. That would be like a lawyer claiming that he is practicing while in the law school.

No, it is going to take more than just 1 other person to post that it works. Plus it would take a clinical study done by a major medical facility to persuade people. You have your approach all wrong. Before you preach the gospel of how great it is, make sure that you have the hard evidence that it works. And by that, your sleep study results or some type of medical report that your symptoms have been reduced or eliminated. You can talk all you want, but in the end, all we can believe is your word and by the way you have presented your argument, it looks like an ad for the place.

Then as far as 50% failure for cpap, I agree with Julie.

Why don't you come back and present your argument after you have some real evidence.

Allen

BlackSpinner wrote:

chopper999 wrote:

Julie wrote:Fifty percent of people who've started Cpap and don't continue on it "fail" because they haven't been properly shown how to use the machine, and/or get fitted for individually appropriate masks in their size, as well as not been helped through psychologically hard times regarding claustrophobia, worries about wearing masks in the presence of bed partners, all kinds of issues, let alone being told it's "illegal" for them to dare change their own pressure on the machine, as well as not knowing the software would allow them to not have to do new studies every year and to learn how to read daily results for themselves. Nothing to do with anything else!

Either way you cut it and for what ever reasons it is still a 50% fail rate - that's a hell of a lot of people losing a hell of a lot of dough - it not all a bed of roses in 'cpap world' not by a long shot indeed.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

And your kind off posts creates even more resistance and wastes time for people in denial. In fact it is dangerous and irresponsible.

The only thing that's dangerous and irresponsible is your comments that it has to be 'cpap or a hole in the throat surgery and NOTHING ELSE!!!} - Heil Hitler!

As far as having high SaO2 levels - {but it must be noted that oxygen saturation does not directly reflect tissue oxygenation} -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SaO2 - under sub-heading of Medical significance!

Just another point of view? - Must be ' dangerous and irresponsible' though because it does not agree with you.

100 of years ago the world was flat and if you if you tried to travel around it you would fall off the edge – the whole world believed this and if you did not you were a fool that is until it was proved otherwise lol.

Have a nice day I know I will – Chopper.

Hawthorne wrote:chooper 999- Why in the worls are you wasting all this time here trying to convince us????????

Because some people get that depressed using a cpap machine they take their own lives thats why ! - People have a right to know that there are other alternatives besides cpap and drastic surgery.

torontoCPAPguy wrote:I would just say this to all the 'other' means of resolving OSA/etc......
The ONLY valid scientific, clinical proof of effective treatment and resolution is a sleep study AND, if necessary, pulmonary efficiency tests. Empirical data. And for me, personally? The biggie is a second by second pulse oximetry graph of SpO2 from the time I lay my head down to the time I get up. Better yet, a 24 study. Any desats IMHO blow the treatment efficacy out the window like a cannon. The desats KILL. They don't just make you sleepy during the day.

Ok so I buy a wrist oximeter { Or borrow one from Mars on this forum } wear it for for 24 hours and post my results here - are people gonna beleive me not according to Allens post - Quote : - { No, it is going to take more than just 1 other person to post that it works. Plus it would take a clinical study done by a major medical facility to persuade people.}

Have a nice day I know I will - Chopper

allen476 wrote:

chopper999 wrote:
G'day Allen -

I started my 5 day Butekyo course on Tuesday 28th of september it is now the 10th of October - I have been practising the Butekyo exercises for 12 days straight - there is nothing wrong with my maths - this is not an AD - and why on earth would you want to fly to Australia from the U.S.A. when you can find a Butekyo practitioner in America. -

http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/BP_AMER.htm

By the way if I spend a couple of grand buying a cpap machine and all the other stuff that goes with it only to find out I am in the 50% that it does not work for - DO I GET MY MONEY BACK -NO SIR I DON'T!!!

I really hope the other gentleman from Australia who said he was gonna do the course really does do it and then posts back here and confirms that I did indeed do the 5 day course because he will have the same teacher as me because we live in the same area of Australia.

Brian Firth the teacher in the video link I posted WILL CONFIRM THIS . - http://www.buteykohealth.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=36

All it's gonna take is 1 more person from the 59.500 members of this site to do a Butekyo course and post their results here - cause it seems to me that no matter what I say or what results I POST ON HERE IN THE FUTURE - NO ONE WILL BELEIVE ME !!!!

When someone else posts positve results from doing the Butekyo course on this forum - I am gonna laugh my head off at all you peolpe who keep accusing me of lying and postings AD'S amoung other things.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

No, you have been practicing for 7 days, not 12. You can't be practicing while in class. That would be like a lawyer claiming that he is practicing while in the law school.

No, it is going to take more than just 1 other person to post that it works. Plus it would take a clinical study done by a major medical facility to persuade people. You have your approach all wrong. Before you preach the gospel of how great it is, make sure that you have the hard evidence that it works. And by that, your sleep study results or some type of medical report that your symptoms have been reduced or eliminated. You can talk all you want, but in the end, all we can believe is your word and by the way you have presented your argument, it looks like an ad for the place.

Then as far as 50% failure for cpap, I agree with Julie.

Why don't you come back and present your argument after you have some real evidence.

Allen

I beg to differ Allen -YOU DO PRACTISE IN CLASS FOR THE 5 DAYS and you can confirm this for yourself if you send an email to Brian Firth the class teacher at - http://www.buteykohealth.com.au/

Once again if I post a 24 hour oximeter report are you gonnna believe it I doubt it - I notice you are in sales - that's more than likely why you think I am also BUT I am not I am sitting at home by my computer on a Monday morning a disabled pensioner.

Have a nice day I know I will -Chopper.

p.s. Sleep log - 13th night - Slept like a baby for 9.5 hours no toilet visits during the night .

chopper999 wrote:p.s. Sleep log - 13th night - Slept like a baby for 9.5 hours no toilet visits during the night .

What was your AHI? What about all the other information that a sleep study provides? For all you know, you were still suffering apneas or hypopneas while you were asleep but simply did not awaken because Buteyko has increased your "tolerance of CO2."

Further discussion is pointless without a sleep study.

Hello all ... I've not been very active here, but am painfully familiar with Bipolar Disorder. My significant other has it, is disabled by it, and I've participated for many years now in online and NAMI support groups for family members of those with Bipolar.

It's very, very common for someone who's manic to grab hold of an idea or belief and want to "share it with the world". Often this takes the form of great religious belief, but it could be an actual or theoretical money-making idea, a philosophical concept, a political belief, etc. Depending on the intelligence, perseverance, and charisma of the person, this could result in serious consequences for those who are involved. I personally know many family members who've been bankrupted, lost their home, lost their marriage, etc.

Bipolar Disorder is also a cognitive illness, not just a mood disorder, and those who have it often have anosognosia, which "is a condition in which a person who suffers disability seems unaware of or denies the existence of his or her disability" as described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia.

We have some sayings in the support group ... "can't argue with crazy", "don't feed the beast", "it's not about you". Just thought I'd put those out here.

mreewh wrote:Hello all ... I've not been very active here, but am painfully familiar with Bipolar Disorder. My significant other has it, is disabled by it, and I've participated for many years now in online and NAMI support groups for family members of those with Bipolar.

It's very, very common for someone who's manic to grab hold of an idea or belief and want to "share it with the world". Often this takes the form of great religious belief, but it could be an actual or theoretical money-making idea, a philosophical concept, a political belief, etc. Depending on the intelligence, perseverance, and charisma of the person, this could result in serious consequences for those who are involved. I personally know many family members who've been bankrupted, lost their home, lost their marriage, etc.

Bipolar Disorder is also a cognitive illness, not just a mood disorder, and those who have it often have anosognosia, which "is a condition in which a person who suffers disability seems unaware of or denies the existence of his or her disability" as described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia.

We have some sayings in the support group ... "can't argue with crazy", "don't feed the beast", "it's not about you". Just thought I'd put those out here.

mmmmm - So let me see now - your saying that I don't know I am Bi-polar according to the Anosognosia theory - mmm I wonder what these little pills are I have been taking for long long time I know 'Smarties'

As mentioned in previous posts I sure as hell know what 'MANIC' is and I also sure as hell know what being stabilased on medecation is.

On onother note thank you for your ad hominem riddled post -

"can't argue with crazy", "don't feed the beast", ect ect.

Have a nice day I know I will - Chopper.

Breathe Jimbo wrote:

chopper999 wrote:p.s. Sleep log - 13th night - Slept like a baby for 9.5 hours no toilet visits during the night .

What was your AHI? What about all the other information that a sleep study provides? For all you know, you were still suffering apneas or hypopneas while you were asleep but simply did not awaken because Buteyko has increased your "tolerance of CO2."

Further discussion is pointless without a sleep study.

I have no idea what my AHI was - will do future sleep study to find this out - the whole idea of increasing your tolerance of CO2 via Butekyo is to STOP the apneas or hypopneas happening see intro video again from 135.00 onwards for full explanation -

http://www.buteykohealth.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=36


Have a nice great day I know I will - Chopper.

There's no need to review the Buteyko materials. It is pseudo-scientific, unsupportable claptrap that has been found to be utterly ineffective in EVERY controlled study to which it has been subjected. It has no basis in science, or in reality and flies in the face of well understood, and well verified physical principles. Don't expect people to take your delusions seriously. You'll be happier that way.

steamfan wrote:There's no need to review the Buteyko materials. It is pseudo-scientific, unsupportable claptrap that has been found to be utterly ineffective in EVERY controlled study to which it has been subjected. It has no basis in science, or in reality and flies in the face of well understood, and well verified physical principles. Don't expect people to take your delusions seriously. You'll be happier that way.

There's no need to review the Buteyko materials. It is pseudo-scientific, unsupportable claptrap that has been found to be utterly ineffective in EVERY controlled study to which it has been subjected. It has no basis in science, or in reality and flies in the face of well understood, and well-verified physical principles. Don't expect people to take your delusions seriously. You'll be happier that way.

Utter 'BS' - you are more than likely just a plant from the cpap industry just posting away to discredit me - and to try and stop freethinking individuals from trying out the butekyo method.
Your Quote: {There's no need to review the Buteyko materials.} Which by the way comes with a 100% money back Guarantee – try finding that on a cpap machine of which 50% give up treatment and stop using I don't think so buddy lol.

After all I am just one man but what if 10,20 30 40 or more started posted here after completing a butekyo course.

On the subject of Butekyo having been found to be utterly ineffective in EVERY controlled study to which it has been subjected read on –

http://www.buteyko.info/clinical_resear ... asp?crid=3

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source= ... cb23a87bdc


It is very simple to understand the science behind Butekyo –

See intro video again from 135.00 onwards for full explanation -

http://www.buteykohealth.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=36

Have a great day I know I will – Chopper.

P.s. Sleep log – 14th Day - 9.5 hours of sleep - plenty of REM through out night no choking or gasping for air what so ever – woke up a couple of times to change position from left to right.
Woke up – no brain fog – no tiredness or exhaustion – no headaches.

Mmmmm – 2 weeks ago {Before Butekyo} I was dead on my feet as usual after only 2 to 3 hours of broken sleep.
This { pseudo science } sures has an effect that flies in the face of well understood, and well-verified physical principles as mentioned by steamfan post above - A POSTIVE ONE!!!!! -

I think I will call it the 'bumble bee effect' I mean there's just no way he should be able to fly with such tiny wings and massive body no no no - it just goes against the laws of Physics - I guess no one told him or he just wasn't listening to begin with ha ha ha.

Have a great day I know I will - Chopper.

mreewh wrote:Hello all ... I've not been very active here, but am painfully familiar with Bipolar Disorder. My significant other has it, is disabled by it, and I've participated for many years now in online and NAMI support groups for family members of those with Bipolar.

It's very, very common for someone who's manic to grab hold of an idea or belief and want to "share it with the world". Often this takes the form of great religious belief, but it could be an actual or theoretical money-making idea, a philosophical concept, a political belief, etc. Depending on the intelligence, perseverance, and charisma of the person, this could result in serious consequences for those who are involved. I personally know many family members who've been bankrupted, lost their home, lost their marriage, etc.

Bipolar Disorder is also a cognitive illness, not just a mood disorder, and those who have it often have anosognosia, which "is a condition in which a person who suffers disability seems unaware of or denies the existence of his or her disability" as described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia.

We have some sayings in the support group ... "can't argue with crazy", "don't feed the beast", "it's not about you". Just thought I'd put those out here.

mreewh, I'm sorry you've personally had such a tough time, and clearly you have a lot of painful associations with the term "bipolar disorder". Yet I have to ask: WHY are you putting this out there? Are you trying to save the good people who have responded to this a lot of trouble by discounting what Chopper has to say merely because he has bipolar disorder? If so, don't bother. I have been on this board long enough to know that some people here will jump on anyone who even dares to question whether there are alternatives to CPAP, and they will not let up until the person professes their wholehearted, undying commitment to CPAP. Oh wait, that sounds a lot like grabbing hold of an idea (i.e., CPAP is the only option sane people should even consider) and not letting go, almost like a religious belief.

Leave aside whether the technique (whose name I don't remember, and can't be bothered to look up) works or not, isn't it wrong to dismiss Chopper's opinion outright simply because he carries a bipolar diagnosis?

It's not about you. This is not about you and your experience with bipolar disorder. You're contributing to discrimination and bias against the mentally ill by chocking this all up to "crazy". And maybe "can't argue with crazy" helps you cope with what your loved one has put you through, but if I were your loved one, I'd find that statement offensive. Actually, in this context, I find it offensive anyway.

Chopper, you're brave to be so open about your diagnosis.