CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by -SWS » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:13 pm

blizzardboy wrote:Here's some more data:
http://users.adam.com.au/sixsome/Bipap%20SV/ - my Bipap SV trial results, and
http://users.adam.com.au/sixsome/S9/ - my Resmed S9 Autoset trial results.
Placeholder Comment: I just took a very quick peek at the above data... and I think there's a chance your obstructive component might be variable and under-addressed on some nights. If that's the case, then an under-addressed obstructive component might explain at least some of the erratic/low tidal volume behavior we are seeing on your Adapt SV charts...

More detailed comments from me later----or possibly even a retraction of my initial thoughts above----after I take an integrated look at ALL of your posted data in the next day or two.

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blizzardboy
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by blizzardboy » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:43 pm

-SWS wrote:More detailed comments from me later
Looking forward to it.

Rough night last night. The migrating joint pain seems to have progressed to multi-joint pain. Feet, hands, wrist, groin/hip and neck painful last night. Kept me awake quite a bit. Also, my leg movements were strongly present when I woke up. Lots of toe curling and leg stretching. This joint pain is not something I have experienced in the past, only starting up mid-way through my S9 Autoset trial and now progressing while on the Adapt SV. Sometimes I take paracetamol or Nurofen to help me sleep. The worst is the pain in the groin/hip, makes me groan when I move in bed. Could this pain be due to the pH balance of my blood being shifted through the application of XPAP?

Also, I wanted to mention that in the longer term my aerophagia has probably been just as bad on the Adapt SV than it was on the S8. Wouldn't want to be a contributor to the fuzzy world of chat-room fables by casting aspersions on the S8, now would I?
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jnk
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by jnk » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:15 pm

blizzardboy wrote: . . . migrating joint pain . . . toe curling and leg stretching . . . pain in the groin/hip . . . pH balance . . . application of XPAP . . .
I believe that inflammation is part of OSAS. I believe that nerves and hormones are affected by OSA. I believe that PAP changes much of how the body works, including pH and how the body handles fluids, mostly in a good way but in a way that can be rough on the kidneys and bladder for a while as things change.

I also believe that the following words from Professor Muffy, often said by "her," are particularly wise:
Muffy wrote: . . . the first thing I would do is figure out exactly what it is I was trying to fix.
And personally, I wouldn't want to be on an SV machine unless I had proof that I needed to be.

But hey, that is only what I believe. And I'm often wrong.

-SWS
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by -SWS » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:35 pm

blizzardboy wrote: Rough night last night. The migrating joint pain seems to have progressed to multi-joint pain. Feet, hands, wrist, groin/hip and neck painful last night. Kept me awake quite a bit. Also, my leg movements were strongly present when I woke up. Lots of toe curling and leg stretching. This joint pain is not something I have experienced in the past, only starting up mid-way through my S9 Autoset trial and now progressing while on the Adapt SV. Sometimes I take paracetamol or Nurofen to help me sleep. The worst is the pain in the groin/hip, makes me groan when I move in bed. Could this pain be due to the pH balance of my blood being shifted through the application of XPAP?
Have you been to a specialist yet who knows how to properly rule out:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fibromyalgia/DS00079

However, fibro patients typically present EEG alpha wave intrusions on their PSG----a separate sleep disorder in its own right. I don't think all sleep clinics look for alpha wave intrusions, though.

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DreamDiver
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by DreamDiver » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:09 pm

-SWS wrote:... fibro patients typically present EEG alpha wave intrusions on their PSG----a separate sleep disorder in its own right. I don't think all sleep clinics look for alpha wave intrusions, though. If your pain is solely limited to the joints, then it's probably not fibro...
The pain waking you up sounds very familiar. I know it's already been suggested in this thread, but I don't remember - Blizzardboy, did you say you've already thoroughly ruled out hypothyroidism? I understand it can masquerade as fibromyalgia-like pain too.

-SWS - Here's a paper about alpha wave intrusion with FM. Interesting.

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Muse-Inc
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by Muse-Inc » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:11 pm

jnk wrote:I believe that inflammation is part of OSAS...
Absolutely! Read a study recently where they evaluated the endothelium (lining of the blood vessels) for damage from inflammation (actually scraped cells from vessels ): diabetes, diabetics with apnea, apneics. Guess what they found: diabetes doesn't cause the cardiovascular damage they'd been reporting for years, it's the apnea that causes that damage. Plain only diabetes doesn't cause much damage to these cells, it's all from apnea...major league inflammation.
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by Muse-Inc » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:14 pm

-SWS wrote:...fibromyalgia...
Dr John Lowe is a fibro and hypo researcher; he belives fibro is a subset of hypo symptoms. All his fibro folks improve when put on the right dose of thyroid.
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blizzardboy
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by blizzardboy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:23 am

jnk wrote:And personally, I wouldn't want to be on an SV machine unless I had proof that I needed to be.
Hi jnk, I had come to believe that ASV was the new gold-standard in CPAP therapy due to its rapid response and minimised pressure support. If one took away the question of price, wouldn't the majority of CPAP users be as well/better off on ASV?

I would be really interested to learn more about your hesitation to use ASV unless absolutely necessary.

I really thought that I had proof for my need of ASV in the form of the recommendations contained within my titration PSG report: http://users.adam.com.au/sixsome/PSG_combined.pdf. What do you reckon?

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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by blizzardboy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:31 am

DreamDiver wrote:did you say you've already thoroughly ruled out hypothyroidism?
Hi DreamDriver, No I haven't ruled out hypothyroidism. Blood letting to follow soon I presume.
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blizzardboy
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by blizzardboy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:43 am

-SWS wrote:Have you been to a specialist yet who knows how to properly rule out:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fibromyalgia/DS00079
No I haven't. However I pressed my thumb into the spots on my body that are used to indicate FM and they are all sore for me. Surely, though, FM is a symptom of my CPAP treatment rather than the cause of my SDB as I only developed sore joints only recently. BTW, the pain I feel is sharp and acute, not dull. Reminds me of some of my football joint injuries e.g. groin pull.

Fybromyalgia seems to be fairly poorly understood at present given what Google has fed me. Fair call?
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by blizzardboy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:13 am

blizzardboy wrote:
echo wrote:It might be interesting to split the "what needs to be fixed" and "SBD issues" into items that are "directly observered" vs. "conjectures" as well... like is the hypoventilation directly observed or is that a conjecture based on the machine data, but that it _could_ in theory be something else?
I will next try to summarise this into a format useful as a strategy map.
Well here is my summary: http://users.adam.com.au/sixsome/the_plan_00.txt

I think it might be a good idea to now work out a priority list to present to the Doctor. OTOH, maybe it would suffice just to show him this summary.

Any comments on my summary would be warmly received.
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unadog
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by unadog » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:30 am

Fybromyalgia seems to be fairly poorly understood at present given what Google has fed me. Fair call?
Fibro is a black hole. It is really just a collection of symptoms. All they do is try to manage symptoms. This is a good site:
http://www.med.umich.edu/painresearch/pro/over.htm

Note that "hypothyroid" and "sleep apnea" are listed under primary "differential diagnosis.". Either to exclude fibro, or copresent.

I don't think you have fibro if this is recent only. More likely sleep disturbances not letting your body rest - which can lead to fibro pain. I had 18 of 18 pain points before ASV. I do need pain meds to let me sleep, though, even on ASV.

I was diagnosed with fibro 12 years ago. Even before, if I only got 6-7 hours of (pre-CPAP) sleep, my pain would get out of control. Also had a hypothyroid diagnosis, that treatment didn't help much. Then I injected HGH for a year to try to keep working.

xPAP has helped me improve for the first time in 12 years. I think sleep is the base disorder, however defined or disrupted. I don't think you will find much useful by following a "fibromyalgia" diagnosis, other than many handfuls of meds!! (good medication list on that site fwiw) At least not yet. Look for underlying causation, as "best treatment." And/or get effective sleep however you can first. I know that is what you are *trying* to do! I can't remember if you have tried analgeisics?

Best,
Michael
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jnk
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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by jnk » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:51 am

blizzardboy wrote: . . . Hi jnk, I had come to believe that ASV was the new gold-standard in CPAP therapy due to its rapid response and minimised pressure support. If one took away the question of price, wouldn't the majority of CPAP users be as well/better off on ASV? I would be really interested to learn more about your hesitation to use ASV unless absolutely necessary.
I think your view is the view of many. But I personally would still want to give plain CPAP (not APAP) the full shot, then bilevel (not autobilevel), to see how stable things could get with my sleep hygiene using them before trying an auto or trying SV, especially if I were a sensitive, easily aroused sleeper prone to a bit of central dysregulation.

I think ASV is amazing for those who need it. But there are trade-offs in using one, just like anything else in life. I am not so much referring to the quality of the machines as the modes of treatment that are designed specifically to address problems that I would not want addressed unless I had proof I actually suffered from one of the problems the modes of operation were for. I would want to see if my centrals went away with plain CPAP for comfort reasons and ease-of-treatment reasons, myself. But my view may be as nonstandard on this as it is on other matters.
blizzardboy wrote: I really thought that I had proof for my need of ASV in the form of the recommendations contained within my titration PSG report: http://users.adam.com.au/sixsome/PSG_combined.pdf. What do you reckon?
I reckon that the occurance of central events can sometimes be addressed adequately with straight CPAP. The summary of your diagnostic report said the following:
Mild to moderate snoring was noted frequently during the study, especially when supine. . . . Obstructive hpopnoeas and apnoeas were noted during both REM and NREM sleep . . . [There were] 28 arousals detected per hour of sleep. Most of these arousals were temporally related to obstructive respiratory events. There were frequent obstructive hypopnoeas and apnoeas seen during his sleep.
Then a very interesting combination of statements is made that indicates to me that maybe some mixed events got scored as centrals:
Central apnoeas became increasing [sic] frequent during the last sleep cycle. These obstructive events . . .
Then the following statement is made:
Depending on the clinical situation, a trial of CPAP +/- adaptive servo-ventilator therapy might be beneficial.
I would want to be sure to give the "-" in the "+/-" the full shot before moving to the "+" myself. But hey, that's just me.

The report for ASV titration may have given the actual diagnosis of the doctor that may have been made after the doc reviewed the tech's work with the diagnostic study. It did not say "complex" or "central" there. It said this:
Previous diagnostic study confirming significant OSAS.
Now, grant you, that may be one of the many "typos" in the reports, along with average 20 bpm for heart rate. But still.

I don't mean to come off as anti-ASV. And if it works for you, great. And I am not questioning the actions of your clinicians. I am only expressing a personal preference of what I personally might do if in similar circumstances.

I hope that clarifies my muddying of the waters. My apologies to the more experienced posters in this thread for that.

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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by park_ridge_dave » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:04 am

Fascinating thread Just wish I understood it all

Welcome Blizzardboy I am a "Newb" and have just started my "journey".
Your thread shows one of the reasons that I love this forum. I always learn so much from it (the forum).
Best of luck on your "journey"

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: CompSA, Hypoventilation, PLMs, Bradycardia and Hypotension?

Post by jnk » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:11 pm

Here is a current HMO policy sheet on ASV from the Northwest US, which I can't say I agree with completely but makes some interesting points:

http://www.ghc.org/all-sites/clinical/c ... df/asv.pdf