OT: HE's a sick man, not a man of God.

TWW wrote:I can't help wondering how this crew (CPAP-talkers) would have reacted to Jonah, Joel, Amos, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, and Jeremiah. My guess is, about the same.

So, I took the time to look at the original clip, as opposed to the hatchet jobs by NBC, CBS, et al. You know, the one in which Robertson painted these people as victims of the behavior of their ancestors, and emphasized the need to send real, tangible aid to the people of Haiti.

You guys didn't see that one? Oh. What a surprise.

Honestly, I don't listen to what that Roberto dude says, clipped or unclipped. So I don't react.

Those other people you mention, whose names sound ancient ... what did they have to say about the Haitian tragedy?

WearyOne wrote:BUT don't you think that his comments regarding packs with the devil, etc. should not have been said considering all the horrible, horrible death and destruction Haiti has suffered?

So when does one mention such things? If I were to throw a brick at my grandson and clonk (technical term) him on the head, would it be inappropriate for someone to say "Aden's grandpa shouldn't have thrown that brick; now let's get Aden to the hospital!"?

Look, I am not entirely thrilled with Robertson's remarks, but I have read post after post from ill-wishers spewing venom and expressing hopes that, if there is a Hell, Robertson goes there. I find the latter attitude much more repugnant than the former.

TWW wrote:

WearyOne wrote:BUT don't you think that his comments regarding packs with the devil, etc. should not have been said considering all the horrible, horrible death and destruction Haiti has suffered?

So when does one mention such things? If I were to throw a brick at my grandson and clonk (technical term) him on the head, would it be inappropriate for someone to say "Aden's grandpa shouldn't have thrown that brick; now let's get Aden to the hospital!"?

Look, I am not entirely thrilled with Robertson's remarks, but I have read post after post from ill-wishers spewing venom and expressing hopes that, if there is a Hell, Robertson goes there. I find the latter attitude much more repugnant than the former.

Oh, I, too, believe those comments were uncalled for.

But your example of the brick-throwing and someone suggesting that the person shouldn't have thrown it and let's get help--those all happened in the present (plus it's pretty obvious gramps shouldn't thrown the brick and it's obvious that gramps throwing the brick caused the injury).

The "pact with the devil," etc., is related to what the ancestors might have done in the past. And some don't even believe that's why this has happened, or that the pact actually took place (even Christians). So why say that when all the horrible pain and misery has just occurred? The bottom line: How does it help them in this horrible disaster to have someone blame their ancestors' pact with the devil and say they're cursed? (True or not.)

EDIT: Even in CBN's press release http://www.cbn.com/about/pressrelease_p ... haiti.aspx they say allegedly (bold emphasis mine): "His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed."

Pam

WearyOne wrote:Even in CBN's press release they say allegedly (bold emphasis mine)"
Pam

That word is not very meaningful in this day and age, in which the "suspect" in the plane "allegedly" tried to blow up his pants before being stopped by a Dutchman. Nowadays we use it to refer to known historical occurrences. Like the word "Christian," "allegedly" has been rendered virtually meaningless by current culture.

As for CBN's soft-pedaling, I am reminded of how Viacom/Nickelodeon "apologized" for insensitivity to Jews that someone perceived in the affiliated Rug Rats comic strip some 10-15 years ago -- despite the fact that Rug Rats was one of the most overtly pro-Jewish cartoons (animated or strip) ever. The fact that they caved to PC pressure sheds little light on the [in]appropriateness of his remarks.

TWW wrote:

WearyOne wrote:Even in CBN's press release they say allegedly (bold emphasis mine)"
Pam

That word is not very meaningful in this day and age, in which the "suspect" in the plane "allegedly" tried to blow up his pants before being stopped by a Dutchman. Nowadays we use it to refer to known historical occurrences. Like the word "Christian," "allegedly" has been rendered virtually meaningless by current culture.

As for CBN's soft-pedaling, I am reminded of how Viacom/Nickelodeon "apologized" for insensitivity to Jews that someone perceived in the affiliated Rug Rats comic strip some 10-15 years ago -- despite the fact that Rug Rats was one of the most overtly pro-Jewish cartoons (animated or strip) ever. The fact that they caved to PC pressure sheds little light on the [in]appropriateness of his remarks.

I still don't understand how saying that at this point in time is helpful in any way. And other Christian talk shows I have listen to recently also call into question that it actually happened. (Can't remember the actual shows, but were on one of the two AFR channels in our area). So I still believe it's not 100% proven. And again, even if it is true, what good and help does it to do say it NOW? If a person's house is burned to the ground and his kids died, do you tell him his great-great-grandfather worshiped the devil on this property and that this ancestor is to blame as he's combing through the rubble, in tears and agony---or do you help him physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually try to put his life back together? I realize Robertson's organization is helping, and helping tremendously---but he did not need to say the stuff about the pact and being cursed. Not now. For the present, stick to showing God's love, mercy, and grace through Christ.

deleted

Holy cow! (whoops, should I expect an earthquake soon?)

This thread is going way into the deep end. Voodoo and warlocks and pacts with the devil ... Y'all are way beyond my level of expertise here.

Sounds like that Roberto dude is into some heavy crap!

So where the hell (oops again ) did y'all learn all this stuff? Off the TV?

I took a summer grad course in Kentucky once and spent like 2 weeks underground crawling around 5 levels of Mammoth Cave but I never saw a devil or anything. At the bottom level there was a lake but it didn't have fire or anything like that. Water just leaked out this spring that flowed into the Green River. Maybe we just needed to go down to a deeper level? That would have required scuba gear that we didn't have though.

Anyway, if this stuff is on TV, I hope they have some way of keeping the children from watching ... sounds like real dangerous stuff with making earthquakes and all.

Hey! Where did everybody go?

I didn't have no earthquake at my end. Everyone ok out there?

Well I ain't here to defend anyone or condemn anyone. But there seems to be a pretty big communication gap, and not just in this thread.

Although I am not particularly familiar with Robertson or his organization, it seems to me that when a religious dude (no disrespect intended, I'm religious myself) wants to express concern and empathy for a group or nation who has just suffered a horrendous catastrophe, he may choose wording about 'curses' and the 'devil' to do so, without necessarily meaning any insult by it. And it seems to me understandable too that many nonreligious people unfamiliar with that form of communication might be insulted by it. I also get it that some religious people may be critical of the timing and the doctrines implied. But if everyone agrees something terrible happened in Haiti and that something needs to be done, I would think there isn't much need to reach consensus universally on the reason for it having happened, or whether there is a direct causative agent. From my point of view, the fact that someone chooses to comment on his personal take about causation and to do so on his own religious program is, frankly, none of my business, if I ain't the guy he was talking to. He was speaking to his listeners who apparently had some idea what he meant, even if I don't quite get it.

jeff

jnk wrote:Well I ain't here to defend anyone or condemn anyone. But there seems to be a pretty big communication gap, and not just in this thread.

Although I am not particularly familiar with Robertson or his organization, it seems to me that when a religious dude (no disrespect intended, I'm religious myself) wants to express concern and empathy for a group or nation who has just suffered a horrendous catastrophe, he may choose wording about 'curses' and the 'devil' to do so, without necessarily meaning any insult by it.And it seems to me understandable too that many nonreligious people unfamiliar with that form of communication might be insulted by it. I also get it that some religious people may be critical of the timing and the doctrines implied. But if everyone agrees something terrible happened in Haiti and that something needs to be done, I would think there isn't much need to reach consensus universally on the reason for it having happened, or whether there is a direct causative agent. From my point of view, the fact that someone chooses to comment on his personal take about causation and to do so on his own religious program is, frankly, none of my business, if I ain't the guy he was talking to. He was speaking to his listeners who apparently had some idea what he meant, even if I don't quite get it.

jeff

You know, you are 100% right! I was going to highlight certain parts that I especially liked, but then I realized I would have to highlight your entire post! Wish I could have stepped back from this thread's conversation and realized it myself---very well said and true.

Pam

Doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with what Pat Robertson said, he will face the same judgement we all will face, and he'll have to answer for his actions as we all will. Its not my place to judge. I believe it was said "don't judge less thee be judged". All I know is that there was an earthquake, thousands were killed, many more injured and homeless. I don't think its too much to ask that we as humans help out. Arguments about governmental philosophy can be made after the crisis is contained.

rjjayrt wrote:Doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with what Pat Robertson said, he will face the same judgement we all will face, and he'll have to answer for his actions as we all will. Its not my place to judge. I believe it was said "don't judge less thee be judged". All I know is that there was an earthquake, thousands were killed, many more injured and homeless. I don't think its too much to ask that we as humans help out. Arguments about governmental philosophy can be made after the crisis is contained.

Absolutely. Mark attempted to start a thread to do just that ... help out.
viewtopic/t48364/OT-Tragedy-in-Haiti--D ... od-RC.html

It faded away as most migrated over to this thread. I intend to give blood as soon as my next eligibility date gets here at end of month.

There may be other ways I can look into helping but my cash flow is pretty tight right now.

So abandon this thread and go over to Mark's and present ideas ... maybe some good can come of this silly thread.

One man makes some outrageous comments on one day. Thousands get a feeling of superiority that lasts for days. They are better than somebody (in their little minds). A few are thinking about donating blood. A few are thinking about donating $10. Whoopee!

Guest wrote:blaaa blaaaa blaaa .... . Whoopee!

That is exactly what a lot of members think about Guest posts too! What a coincidence.

jnk wrote:... Although I am not particularly familiar with Robertson or his organization, it seems to me that when a religious dude (no disrespect intended, I'm religious myself) wants to express concern and empathy for a group or nation who has just suffered a horrendous catastrophe, he may choose wording about 'curses' and the 'devil' to do so, without necessarily meaning any insult by it. And it seems to me understandable too that many nonreligious people unfamiliar with that form of communication might be insulted by it. ...

I did listen to his response before I posted anything.

While you are right that he was talking to his audience, he was in fact talking to a wider audience. He knows it and should speak accordingly. I have two issues with his response.

First, most people react negatively to this message because we tend to think it is injustice to treat children poorly due to the actions of the parents. That's essentially what he says is occuring.

Second, he just ran smack into the problem that the book of Job discusses. Bad things happen to good people. And - darn it - good things happen to bad people. Life is not fair. But because bad things happen, it does NOT mean that they (or their ancestors) were bad. That is bad and sloppy theology.

So, it helps no one to essentially say "They brought it on themselves". All it does is spread rancor and discord. Again, not the reflection of the faith that I would like to see. Rather, I was struck by the number of churches and other relief organizations ALREADY in Haiti helping when the quake struck. Their speech - through their actions - says much more about their faith than his condemnation of others.