Remembering dreams

jnk wrote:I wonder how many dream-recall specialists these days agree with these words that Goodenough wrote in the late 70's:

"Dream recall failures should occur unless the sleeper awakens within a matter of seconds after the dream experience occurs. If arousal takes place during the life of the short-term trace then the content of the dream experience which immediately preceded the awakening may be retrievable from the short-term store directly. Given this retrieval as an entry into the long-term store, the dreamer may then be able to recall some of the preceding content of that dream experience. If the awakening is delayed until the short-term trace has expired, then retrieval may no longer be possible, or it may be much more difficult."

The source I got that from seems to indicate that theories differ on how long the short-term trace lasts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eV5g78 ... el&f=false

I know there are competing dream-recall theories in neuroscience today. I am under the impression that consensus has wakefulness as a facilitator of dream recall. However, I don't think there is presently any kind of consensus casting immediate wakefulness as a biological imperative for dream recall. I sure could be wrong about that.

Koulack and Goodenough's position referenced above doesn't really seem to lend much support to early-session or even mid-session "lucid dreaming" as a learnable skill:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22 ... =en&tab=ws

But there's plenty of academic chatter, in general, kicking around these days about "dreaming mnemonics":
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=dre ... =en&tab=ws

And "dream recall" in relation to "memory" and "cognition":
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... =&as_vis=0

The problem I have with Koulack and Goodenough's dream-recall theory is that it equates or allocates memory processing of internally-generated subconscious dreams, exclusively with that very same mechanism the mind uses to cognitively process/store interactive experiences of external stimuli during wide-awake moments...

However, widespread PSG instrumentation in this decade and the last should have managed to pin down wakefulness as a dream-recall requirement with this one simple, hard epidemiological pattern: universal failure of dream recall to occur across the populace in undisturbed sleep sessions. I could be very wrong, but I don't think that hard pattern ever emerged in epidemiology. I think if it had, sleep medicine would likely have begun addressing dream recall as if it were a clear indicator of pathological sleep. And to the best of my knowledge, contemporary sleep medicine does not view dream recall in that context at all.

That said, I'm probably wrong about everything I've said in this thread!

-SWS wrote:
However, widespread PSG instrumentation in this decade and the last should have managed to pin down wakefulness as a dream-recall requirement with this one simple, hard epidemiological pattern: universal failure of dream recall to occur across the populace in undisturbed sleep sessions. I could be very wrong, but I don't think that hard pattern ever emerged in epidemiology. I think if it had, sleep medicine would likely have begun addressing dream recall as if it were a clear indicator of pathological sleep. And to the best of my knowledge, contemporary sleep medicine does not view dream recall in that context at all.

That said, I'm probably wrong about everything I've said in this thread!

-SWS, I think you are right on with what you are stating. I seem to remember seeing the dream recall as a statistic in more than one place, stated that dream recall was greater among those aroused during or just after REM sleep. In order to say that this recall was 'greater', there had to be a 'lesser' component who could remember dreams without waking. There is still a whole lot that we do not understand about how the brain works, or what dreams really do for us.

Part of dream recall might have have to do with the content of the dream. A really powerful or shocking dream might 'make the trip' into long-term memory better than a dream that has little really exceptional content. A lot of what we dream is probably of the latter type, and it is not surprising that we do not remember it. In any case, I can say with reasonable certantity for myself that dreams I do remember are all of the 'exceptional' type.

I don't think arousals are necessarily pathologic; I just think that the core of the arousal-recall theory, as I understand it, is that it is hard to remember a REM dream unless you shift consciousness states soon enough after, and long enough, to process it enough to be able to recall it when awake the next day. Nothing wrong with that. But nothing healing about it, either.

I do, however, believe that if an increase in dream recall was recognized as being a clinically useful indicator of successful PAP therapy, that would have been duly noted and universally touted in the literature.

My understanding is that all the doc wants to see is that you get enough REM; he has no reason to care whether you remember anything about it later.

I KNOW I must be wrong about it all, myself, though, because I am always most opinionated concerning the things about which I know the least.

Life is more fun that way!

timbalionguy wrote: Part of dream recall might have have to do with the content of the dream. A really powerful or shocking dream might 'make the trip' into long-term memory better than a dream that has little really exceptional content. A lot of what we dream is probably of the latter type, and it is not surprising that we do not remember it. In any case, I can say with reasonable certantity for myself that dreams I do remember are all of the 'exceptional' type.

jnk wrote: the core of the arousal-recall theory, as I understand it, is that it is hard to remember a REM dream unless you shift consciousness states soon enough after, and long enough, to process it enough to be able to recall it when awake the next day.

I agree with both of those statements.

However, that also suggests/supports the idea that psychological stimuli alone can generate sleep arousals. So let's subscribe to arousal-recall theory and assume that sleep arousals or awakenings are necessary for the conscious mind to fully process and store dream content:

First-Hand Dream Observation: the dreaming subconscious mind is not very rational or detail oriented compared to the conscious or awakened mind.

Amateur Dream Theory for the Day: an activity-based and vague pattern-oriented subconscious mind attempts to resolve past problems and future scenarios; the subconscious mind attempts to proactively resolve future problems by vaguely reviewing elements from past problems and even rehearsing future scenarios.

Amateur Rhetorical Dream Question: Thus is it possible that when the subconscious mind thinks dream content is important enough, that it might attempt to awaken and employ the highly rational and detail-oriented conscious mind to work on that potentially important or problematic scenario? My hunch is that it does... And I suppose in that case multiple awakenings with prolific "dream mentation" can be purely a function of psychology rather than environmental stimuli or sleep disorders such as SDB, PLMD, bruxism, etc. And in that case I suppose dreams might hypothetically share a common survival value to both the conscious and dreaming subconscious portions of the mind.

But if that's what's happening, dream recall isn't necessarily an indicator of either good or bad CPAP therapy...

So, since i don't recall dreaming in the last 4 or 5 years prior to starting CPAP, does that mean I didn't dream...or that I have memory issues?

I don't remember a LOT of "real" events during that time, including a few vacations. Even with pictures!

LinkC wrote:So, since i don't recall dreaming in the last 4 or 5 years prior to starting CPAP, does that mean I didn't dream...or that I have memory issues?

I don't remember a LOT of "real" events during that time, including a few vacations. Even with pictures!

I still subscribe to this amateur opinion about dream recall:

-SWS wrote:Variance across the population---as with most cognitive functions.

But I also couldn't recall dreams for several years before CPAP. Then I went into an almost bizarre overly-prolific dream rebound period for the better part of a year. My hunch is that I wasn't dreaming prior to CPAP. I have no idea why that overly-extended rebound period. My nights seemed faaaaar more active than my days.

I'm an artist, so everything to me is extremely visual. I remember some dreams and some not so much, depends on my interest in the dream. I dream in extreme 3d and technicolor (artist and graphic background I'm sure). I basically remember everything I see in waking life. I can walk into a room and see "everything" in almost one glance. My visual memories of my life pass by daily and I can visually remember back as far as about 1 and 1/2 years old. Some interesting info below:

"Are there other mental or personality factors that influence rate of recall?

Some low recallers seem to be less good at tasks involving visual imagination, such as when they have to look at a picture of a building made of blocks and then construct one out of blocks that are sitting in front of them. There may be other "cognitive skills" relating to the ability to imagine things that are important, too, but the research is not yet completely convincing on this point.

As far as personality factors, which many people might think to be the main factor, studies using several personality tests don't show either large or consistent relationships. Nor is there any evidence that some people are too "defensive" or "repressed" to remember their dreams. Several studies are pretty convincing on that point."

Since I've been on cpap for that last two years my dreams have exploded! Before? They were OK, but now? Dynamite.

LinkC wrote:So, since i don't recall dreaming in the last 4 or 5 years prior to starting CPAP, does that mean I didn't dream...or that I have memory issues?

I don't think it has to be "either-or."

As for "didn't dream" -- You probably were dreaming (having REM) at least some during each night, even before starting CPAP. But, depending on how bad your sleep disordered breathing was, your REM might have been so fragmented that you weren't getting healthy amounts of REM. Whatever showed up in your PSG about REM is likely what was pretty much going on REM-wise during those years prior to starting CPAP.

As for "memory issues" -- mebbe/mebbe not. As -SWS pointed out, there can be a wide variance in the way different people process (and access) memories. Even wide awake memories. The differences don't necessarily mean "issues." Just...differences. I don't have an "issue" with my not having the talent to be, say, a concert pianist.

On the other hand...

LinkC wrote:I don't remember a LOT of "real" events during that time, including a few vacations. Even with pictures!

Funny you should say that. I was just talking with a friend who mentioned an animal we saw repeatedly during a vacation. An animal I should easily remember, but that I still don't recollect seeing at all. I was there.. and was sober!

So, on second thought...hmmmm... maybe you and I BOTH have "memory issues", Link!!

I also attribute aniracetam for my extreme memory recall ability! It DOES work (I'm 62). I've been taking it for years:
http://www.antiaging-systems.com/a2z/aniracetam.htm
It also helps my wife when her hands start to shake slightly. Fixes it almost immediately...she's 71.

rested gal wrote:

LinkC wrote:So, since i don't recall dreaming in the last 4 or 5 years prior to starting CPAP, does that mean I didn't dream...or that I have memory issues?

I don't think it has to be "either-or." ...

Exactly. As a child, I could remenber a large number of my dreams. Not everyone can. I could. Part of it is practice. Part of it is that I have always seen my dreams as a creative well of insight. I am EXTREMELY intuitive in my thinking. I am also VERY visual. So, I tend to remember scenes and images more than the content. Growing up, I often found that as my mind worked through events, oddly juxtapostioned ideas in those images would trigger new insights. So, I worked at remembering dreams.

For me dreams are and always have been important. I know that my problem solving skills are enhanced with more vivid dreaming. And I often intentionally try to enhance my dreaming and resulting creativity. I find I need to read (or listen to stories as I walk). Watching movies, going to shows, listening to the symphony, etc. Spending time with friends. All of it helps contribute to the dreams.

My dream recall is not very rich. I just remember that I dreamt and some general details. However, I can clearly correlate the vividness of the dreams with my ability to creatively solve problems. So, if I felt I did poorly dreaming, I also find I lack focus when trying to solve issues. When my dreams seemed very vivid, I find that I more easily discover innovative approaches to solving issues.

I also find that when my sleep is badly interrupted (due to apnea problems) my dreams are much less frequent and I remember less of my dreams. Since apnea (both central and obstructive) interferes with normal sleep architecture, this should not be a surprise.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents added to the mix.

This thread is taking a very interesting turn.

First of all, I noticed that, except for a brief 'rebound' period, I remember dreams about as frequently after starting xPAP and I did before I started. No theories as to why this is, or if it is typical/atypical.

In the neverending attempts to get my AHI numbers down to 'good' levels (been averaging 7-9 (nearly all hypopnas) pretty consistently, no matter what I do), I tried switching to straight CPAP. I picked a pressure right around where my machine seem to be titrating me, 14 cm/H2O. I did this for 3 nights. The first night, I had an AHI of 4.5. The second, 5.5, the third, 10.5. All three mornings after, I felt terrible despite the lower numbers and good leak lines. So last night, I switched back to autoadjust 13-18. HAd an AHI of 6.5, but felt great. I also remembered a lot of dreams, a lot more than usual.

I tend to have dreams I remember a lot of detail. Last night, for instance, I remember looking over a book and an exhibit about the construction of a ship. I remember that this ship was a tri-hull design, unusual for an ocean-going vessel. The construction process was unusual, and was detailed in CAD drawings pictures, and models. I even remember details about the ceiling vents in the ballroom, which occupied much of the top deck of this passenger ship.

Another dream involved some high school students who were doing an experiment in which the goal was to get a pendant hanging on some decoration high up on a clock or bell tower of a building that was like a city hall, to move, using a projectile fired from a gun. The challenge was that the building was on the other side of a hill from where the gun was being fired, and there was no direct line of sight. This was apparently some sort of ongoing challenge that many people attempted. I remember that the students employed a shotgun as opposed to a rifle, and they were trying to use wooden props to hold it steady for this nearly impossible shot. They were not making effective use of their props, and there seemed to be some disagreement on how to employ them. They also had some sort of interesting 'velocity amplifier' to try and shoot through, that was about 5 feet long and about a foot in diameter. I remember many mechanical details about this device, but was not sure how it worked. I also woke before I knew if the students were successful.

Interesting discussion, and thanks for all the info guys.

I believe I now quite often dream, and sometimes only know this because I remember briefly when I initially wake up. Later on, I can't recall what the dream was about, but I do remember I had one. I've also a feeling there are many more dreams I don't remember - hints around the edges of consciousness, so to speak.

Fits in with all the above, I'm thinking.

(Hopefully the fact that I only had time to skim this thread won't be apparent in my response...)

What about doing a search regarding dream recall in populations with fragmented sleep (but no apnea) vs. "normal" controls? Narcoleptics have very fragmented sleep, but narcolepsy is a disorder of REM, so that might be a confound. Those with alpha intrusions by definition have fragmented sleep. PLMS with arousals, but no SDB, might be another interesting group. I don't know that this info is out there, but it would be interesting.

BTW, what would Freud have done if his patients couldn't recall their dreams?! Free association with no dream interpretation would really be a snore.

When I went to my sleep study review with my doctor she pointed out the various times i was in rem sleep which she said was good because of the good data they were able to collect when i was sleeping. She also showed me a time span when i was in a very deep sleep. She said thats fairly uncommon and seen more in young children. I forget what she called that state. Was curious on that. I also find this topic fascinating.