Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

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zonker
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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by zonker » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:45 pm

lazarus wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:51 pm


Well, if yer gonna get all serious about it like that, then I'll be forced to admit that I agree with you completely.
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cheers! although it pains me to read what i wrote. not because of the content. i just don't like reading what i wrote because i often think to myself "could i have phrased that more badly?".
lazarus wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:51 pm
The very existence of OSCAR as a free product should keep other services in line and should keep those services from gouging--which is just one more way the hard-working people of OSCAR are doing a service on multiple levels for the entire planet--round or flat.
one can hope. i see that dog slobber has chimed in. i'm confident that he is beta testing the hell out of sleephq and will help keep them honest.
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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by zonker » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:47 pm

Dog Slobber wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:52 pm


Sorry, but I can't accept that the data loss is simply because of less granularity.

as i indicated to lazarus, i hope you are giving sleephq plenty of feedback to help keep them on the right path.

n'est-ce pas ainsi?
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Post by robysue1 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:48 pm

Tec5 wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:02 pm
lazarus wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:27 pm
Prolly just a low-res rep. The hi-res reps are in OSCAR.
'Prolly' correct. I've always assummed that the SD card contains the record of each and every sensor reading, ergo highest resolution possible. I've also assumed that OSCAR acquires ALL that data stream and plots each record.
So now to get a lower resolution (for transmission purposes) one has to translate the data to a lower frequency. That involves some decision process.
Shall we just transmit every third data point? Every 6th data point? Should we average 10 data points, should we use a moving average? Just how do we get to a less granular representation (lower resolution) of the data?

These are questions that I suppose the "Average Joe" is not interested in.
Do you think Average Joe might be interested in whether his machine is delivering the pressure it's supposed to deliver? And hence take a look at the pressure data in SleepHQ or the pressure statistics in SleepHQ?

Well if Average Joe is using a PR DreamStation BiPAP Auto, then SleepHQ ain't going to give him accurate information about whether his machine is delivering the pressure it's supposed to deliver. The one "pressure" curve presented to Average Joe won't show the IPAP pressure or the EPAP pressure. (What it does show is anybody's guess.) And in the SleepHQ statistics area? It's quite possible that the 95% "pressure" shown in SleepHQ could be less than Average Joe's min IPAP setting. That's not going to reassure Average Joe that his machine is working as intended.

So what's Average Joe going to conclude?

Is he going to conclude there's something wrong with his machine? And then call his DME and say, "My machine's not working" only to have the DME look at the data in Encore Pro and show him a printout from Encore that indicates his machine is, in fact, working as intended?

In that case, what's Average Joe going to conclude about SleepHQ? Will he decide SleepHQ is a pile of junk and never log into it again?

Please understand: I'm actually sympathetic to what the folks at SleepHQ are trying to do. But the fact is that SleepHQ has to present the data that it choses to present in a fashion that is accurate enough to not have glaringly obvious differences to how that data is presented in ResScan and Encore Pro.

As Dog Slobber's post demonstrates, proper sampling of the hi res data can lead to a good quality lo res representation of the data. But whatever sampling is being done in the Mask Pressure graph is, pardon my language, piss poor: The low res representation of the data has no resemblance to the actual data at all.

And whatever is being done for drawing the curve that represents the PR DreamStation BiPAP Auto's pressure data is truly hideous in a way that actually affects how an Average Joe might mis-interpret something basic about his machine's data. The pressure numbers in SleepHQ aren't going to even vaguely resemble what Joe sees on his machine's "sleep report" if he does even a cursory check in order to figure out whether SleepHQ might be worthwhile to use.
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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by Dog Slobber » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:59 pm

zonker wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:47 pm
Dog Slobber wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:52 pm


Sorry, but I can't accept that the data loss is simply because of less granularity.

as i indicated to lazarus, i hope you are giving sleephq plenty of feedback to help keep them on the right path.

n'est-ce pas ainsi?
This topic gave feedback to sleepHQ.

He responded his data was accurate and wouldnt debate.

They're not interested in feedback.
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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by lazarus » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:04 pm

Dog Slobber wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:59 pm
This topic gave feedback to sleepHQ.

He responded his data was accurate and wouldnt debate.

They're not interested in feedback.
Perhaps the more public and detailed the feedback, the more interested they/he may become?

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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by zonker » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:06 pm

Dog Slobber wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:59 pm


This topic gave feedback to sleepHQ.

He responded his data was accurate and wouldnt debate.

They're not interested in feedback.
OH! didn't realize wanderlustrailia was a rep for sleephq.

carry on, then!
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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by lazarus » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:11 pm

zonker wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:06 pm
OH! didn't realize wanderlustrailia was a rep for sleephq.
Just a low-res rep, in protection of our delicate browsers.

After all, "performance issues" can be highly embarrassing.
Last edited by lazarus on Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by zonker » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:13 pm

lazarus wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:11 pm
zonker wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:06 pm
OH! didn't realize wanderlustrailia was a rep for sleephq.
Just a low-res rep, in protection of our delicate browsers.
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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by ozij » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:16 pm

Wanderlustralia wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:30 pm
The browsers would crash in an instant if they were hit with super high res data with hundreds of thousands of data points. It would cause all sorts of performance issues.
Ignoring bugs or blaming them on internet rendering seems to be a habit at SleepHq.
Here are the responses Respirator99 got when telling them about the timezone bug:

All empahsis mine
Respirator99 wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:01 am
It's definitely sloppy programming in my view. I asked the question on the CPAP Reviews Facebook forum and got this response from Nicko...
Hey mate, i don’t think it’s possible to be ‘fixed’. Personally i feel time is irrelevant for analysis and if required you can always share a zoomed in link to any part of any chart you require 👍 The Best Way To Share Your CPAP Therapy Results - Zoom In! #shorts
https://youtube.com/shorts/U1r94ZlQO9w?feature=share
And that ^^^^is an emphasis on marketing (the ability to zoom, which I agree is great) as opposed to an honest attempt to realize why some people think it's a bug.
Respirator99 wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:14 pm
ozij wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:17 pm
Bump.
A reminder that every viewer of SleepHQ data sees the time of their own time zone on the charts.

And this has not yet been corrected.

May I suggest the people who share their SleeHQ charts specifically mention their time zone and its offset from the UTC (Universal Time Clock), as a courtesy to those who live far away from them? That will also make discussions of what happened when smoother and more reliable.
There is a lot of stuff in SleepHQ that has been promised but not delivered. Can't complain too much as it's a free service but it would be good to see this timezone issue fixed. However I don't think it's likely to happen soon: Nicko & Adam have explained it's a function of hosting the data on a central server for rendering via the web. The explanation didn't make sense to me, but what do I know?
[...]
^^^^^ Blame the internet for sloppy programing....

And then they fixed it rather quickly - after palerider taught them what it's all about, and just when they started PR for their paid platform:
palerider wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:36 pm
It would be *easier* to just keep the date of the data as it was imported. there's no reason to change the dates and times based on the *viewer* of the data.
That's just stupid programming.
Oscar has a field for time zone... as did Sleephead... but it doesn't *DO* anything, because it doesn't NEED to do anything.
Monetizing is OK - but sometimes is impacts people's integrity making them focus on making more money, and not on doing things right, and turns their head a bit:
Wanderlustralia wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:54 pm
Honestly, i love all of you apnea nerds geeking out on flow rates and yawns disguised as centrals etc and helping everyone out. There's no bigger sleep geek than yours truly, but I'm also a realist. You're the 1% (me included), and I'm stoked you have OSCAR for all your needs because SleepHQ was not made for you. It was made for the other 99%. Anyway, In 6 months, all these posts will be completely irrelevant. SleepHQ will be charting sleep data from any wearable that can write data to Apple or google health. It won't just be cpap. It will be a complete sleep health app. Millions of Apple watch, fitbit, garmin users etc tracking their Sleep Cycle and other health data alongside their cpap data on SleepHQ and it will all be completely automatic. Have a good one!

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Post by palerider » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:33 pm

ozij wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:16 pm
Wanderlustralia wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:54 pm
Honestly, i love all of you apnea nerds geeking out on flow rates and yawns disguised as centrals etc and helping everyone out. There's no bigger sleep geek than yours truly, but I'm also a realist. You're the 1% (me included), and I'm stoked you have OSCAR for all your needs because SleepHQ was not made for you. It was made for the other 99%. Anyway, In 6 months, all these posts will be completely irrelevant. SleepHQ will be charting sleep data from any wearable that can write data to Apple or google health. It won't just be cpap. It will be a complete sleep health app. Millions of Apple watch, fitbit, garmin users etc tracking their Sleep Cycle and other health data alongside their cpap data on SleepHQ and it will all be completely automatic. Have a good one!
So, what... "SleepHQ, if you're stupid enough, it's for you!" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by zonker » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:36 pm

ozij wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:16 pm

Ignoring bugs or blaming them on internet rendering seems to be a habit at SleepHq.
ozij?

thank you very much for taking the time to pull this together.

very telling.
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Re:

Post by Tec5 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:00 pm

robysue1 wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:48 pm
Do you think Average Joe might be interested in whether his machine is delivering the pressure it's supposed to deliver?
Wanderlustralia (who may or not be an official voice for SleepHQ) contends that the AVERAGE CPaPer less interested in whether his AHI is 5 or 6 and more focussed on getting "good" sleep.
I suspect that the majority of CPaPusers just strap on their mask, follow their doctor's prescription, don't fiddle with settings, and hope for the best quality sleep.
Some CPapers may track their "numbers", but I suspect that the vast majority don't.

On the other hand, there are some CPaPers who are very concerned that their AHI numbers are accurate to a 0.1.

There are some CPaPers who want assurance that their machine is delivering what it's supposed to. Few years ago I was one of those, I wanted to have my machine's pressure sensor's calibration checked (to assure myself that if my machine said it was delivering 10.5 cm that it was in fact 10.5 cm and not 10.4 or 10.6). The machine manufacturer said sure we can do that (verify the calibration), but we'd have to have your machine for 6 weeks and it would cost about 600 dollars. Practicality and reality helped me decide that it wasn't all that important, if the actual pressure was 10.5 but the machine was reporting 10.3 or 10.7 -- I was OK with that.

That said, some CPapers may not be satisfied that that margin of error. But I honestly believe that they are in the small minority.

The the "Average Joe" (whatever that may be) is likely represented by the majority that just aren't that focussed on absolutes.
If that's the market that SleepHQ wants to serve, that's their choice. And I suspect that's the lion's share of all CPapers.

However, some CPapers are focussed on the details, and some may have very good reasons to require a high degree of accuracy. For those, SleepHQ may not be the best aid.
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Re: Re:

Post by robysue1 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:40 pm

Tec5 wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:00 pm
robysue1 wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:48 pm
Do you think Average Joe might be interested in whether his machine is delivering the pressure it's supposed to deliver?
Wanderlustralia (who may or not be an official voice for SleepHQ) contends that the AVERAGE CPaPer less interested in whether his AHI is 5 or 6 and more focussed on getting "good" sleep.
I suspect that the majority of CPaPusers just strap on their mask, follow their doctor's prescription, don't fiddle with settings, and hope for the best quality sleep.
Some CPapers may track their "numbers", but I suspect that the vast majority don't.
Here in the US, a large number of CPAPers never get past the first few months of PAP therapy before they just give up because they are not feeling any better and they find the machine too hard to sleep with. I thought the whole point behind the development of SleepHQ was to give those large numbers of new CPAPers a useful tool to help them better understand what's going on with their xPAP therapy.

And the very beginning of understanding of what's going on with your xPAP therapy is simply knowing the prescribed pressure for your machine. Knowing your prescribed xPAP pressure is really no different than knowing the names and dosage of the medications you take.

But I guess you're one of those people who thinks it's ok for a person to not know the names of the medicines they're taking or the doses they are supposed to use.

On the other hand, there are some CPaPers who are very concerned that their AHI numbers are accurate to a 0.1.
I never mentioned AHI in my post about the fact that SleepHQ's pressure graph is highly misleading about a very basic part of xPAP therapy if you are using a PR DreamStation Auto BiPap---namely SleepHQ's inaccurate information about the pressure the machine is actually using during the night to control.

If you want Average Joes to use SleepHQ, then the most basic info that they are likely to know---i.e. their prescribed pressure settings---ought to be reflected accurately in the information that is being used to sell the program to those Average Joes.

There are some CPaPers who want assurance that their machine is delivering what it's supposed to.
Most average CPAPers will be content if the software they've been told is useful to monitor their therapy accurately shows the machine running at the correct pressure. They can't use SleepHQ to do that if they're using a PR DreamStation BiPAP Auto.

The the "Average Joe" (whatever that may be) is likely represented by the majority that just aren't that focussed on absolutes.
If that's the market that SleepHQ wants to serve, that's their choice. And I suspect that's the lion's share of all CPapers.
Complaining that SleepHQ's pressure graph indicates my pressure never gets higher than about 6.2 when my minimum IPAP is 7cm is not focusing on "absolutes". It's asking for software intended to be useful for monitoring xPAP therapy to correctly display my machine's pressures and how they vary through the night.

However, some CPapers are focussed on the details, and some may have very good reasons to require a high degree of accuracy. For those, SleepHQ may not be the best aid.
For a PR DreamStation BiPAP Auto user, there is no accuracy in the SleepHQ pressure graph at all. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. And as soon as even a casual PAPer discovers such a glaring flaw in the SleepHQ program, there's a really good reason for that casual PAPer to decide that SleepHQ is a scam that can't help them make PAPing any easier.
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Re: Re:

Post by palerider » Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:02 pm

robysue1 wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:40 pm
Tec5 wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:00 pm
typical nonsense.
But I guess you're one of those people who thinks
I'm sorry, but there's been no evidence to support such a supposition.

Good luck in refuting that troll's nonsense. You're a stronger person than I am.

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Re: Distorted or misrepresented source data OSCAR vs. SleepHQ

Post by Rubicon » Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:42 am

Dog Slobber wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:59 pm
They're not interested in feedback.
Why would they be?

It's a data miner.

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