UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
rick blaine
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by rick blaine » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:36 am

Hello again Blazing_Black_Beard,

Some info and clarification:

That bit where the Northampton clinic gave you an Autoset for a few weeks – that was never intended to be permanent. They give patients the auto machine for two, three, or four weeks solely to find out the pressure the patient was at or under 90 per cent of the time.

Not 90 per cent of the gap between highest and lowest pressure, but 90 per cent of the time.

In many cases in the US – and only in a few cases in the UK – this finding out what pressures you need is done by having the patient stay over-night in a 'sleep lab', with the technician gradually increasing the pressure to see what effect that has.

When that finding out is done in a US sleep lab it is called 'conducting a titration' or sometimes just 'a titration'.

That term is not used so much in the UK, but I mention it so that, if you come across it here, you'll know what people are talking about.

And it doesn't really matter what it's called. The key thing is: it's the policy in your area to do this finding out, this titrating, at your home. And then it's the policy in your area to only issue you with a fixed-pressure machine for your on-going use.

And the staff are the sleep-medicine department you now attend can say they are doing the right thing because this policy is what is recommended for sleep apnea in the NICE guidelines.

There are lots of people – including some sleep-medicine professionals – who say that these guidelines are out-of-date and need revising.

And the doctors and consultants in many other areas of the UK have all by themselves moved to a position where they are ahead of the NICE guidelines – because they know from experience that issuing auto machines is more cost-effective.

It may cost them a little bit more per machine, but patient compliance and treatment are both highter, and patient management is easier.

Anyway ... that's for background.

Now for where you are and what to do next.

It does seem to me, and in my opinion, your case has been poorly managed by the Leicester clinic.

Best UK practice would say that sleep apnea patients, once accepted by a department, should be seen once a year for follow up, mask part replacement, the trial of new mask designs as they become available, and the keeping of adequate records, both for the hospital's legal requirement, and to provide the basis for supplying an opinion to the DVLA when asked.

(Having said that, I can tell you that some sleep-medicine departments in the UK are now doing follow-ups on a two-year interval basis, such is the case-load they have been presented with.

GPs have realised that, for a overwhelming majority of the patients they refer, modern treatment is both effective and cost-effective. So they are referring more and more patients. OSA treatment in the UK is now a victim of its own success.)

But, from what you say, you weren't even seen on an every-two-year basis – and thus don't have the records which would go with that.

Which makes what records you do have all the more important.

The first thing you should do is make a copy of the SD card you have. For safety, you might make two copies. :)

Your aim is to let your new, Northampton sleep-medicine department have sight of some previous data, and to let them see that you slept well or reasonably well on the S9 auto machine.

And they can see and compare for themselves that data with how you have been doing more recently on the Elite machine.

And then you can repeat the suggestion that perhaps an 'individual funding request' might be in order.

And see what they say.

PS. Check that this Northampton lot have your NHS number, and that it is correct. And then check that they have your new address and mobile number, and that they do appointment reminders both by surface-mail letters and mobile text message.

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Blazing_Black_Beard
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by Blazing_Black_Beard » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:34 pm

Thanks for that Rick. I'll be taking my S9 SD card backup with me when I take this Elite piece of crap back. There's no point in me having it here because it's useless to me. It's as was suggested, bad therapy is just as good as no therapy at all.

I'm now set up with a friends backup S9 autoset and will be telling the sleep lab that this is temporary whilst they are away for just over a week. I'll also be telling them how bad the machine was and what it was doing and showing after each night for about 5 nights. I tried to reset it to see if it behaved any better but unfortunately it was still the same bad therapy, so I bagged it.

During the reset I must have wiped the memory of previous night's therapy on the Elite as no usage is recorded. I only see hours run in the info section which is always accumulative no matter what. This will have to be enough to show them how little I could use it. I know, not ideal but it is what it is.

They may take a little convincing or may send me back home for more torture with the Elite and insist I provide recordings over a few days, but I doubt the latter after how expressive I'm going to be with them

We will see how this turns out. I was told by the lab if I'm experiencing crap nights with the Elite that ordering an Autoset is an option so let's hope they take my word for it that I felt dreadful switching to it no matter what pressure it was set to.

Here's hoping for a positive outcome when I phone them on Monday.

_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Temporary S9 Autoset from friend whilst hospital decide to replace Airsense 10 Elite with an Autoset. OSCAR beta software for monitoring.

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Blazing_Black_Beard
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by Blazing_Black_Beard » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm

Just a quick update.

So here's a two typical night's sleep, taken from this week moving back to an S9 Autoset temporarily. Every night is pretty much the same ranging anywhere from 6.5 or so to 16 and the points at which they change are obvious.

Bear in mind that I have other conditions that affect how I sleep and the position I lay in to be able to feel comfortable and pain free. I have duly noted that some have suggested that the specialists suggest moving off one's back but this is not always possible and most of the time I am actually laying on my back to sleep as it would be too painful to sleep otherwise. I will make the sleep lab aware of this when I urge them order an autoset machine.

Capture001.PNG
Capture001.PNG (120 KiB) Viewed 1877 times
Capture002.PNG
Capture002.PNG (125.91 KiB) Viewed 1877 times

If I'm interpretiung the graphs coprrectly, the S9 autoset:

1)ramps for about 35 minutes to my auto sensed starting pressure of around 6 to 7, even though the machine is set for the full range of 4 to 20. I may even have been awake for up to an hour or so, just trying to relaxing.
2)reacts to my movement and ramps the pressure up to around 16 on average over a few days worth of graphs and the OSCAR graph shows a corresponding increase in pressure and snoring (I assume the mask pressure is a little lower due to the constant leakage from the front holes in the mask?)
3)reacts to movement again and reduces the pressure significantly, on average over a few days worth of graphs to about 5 to 7, which is something the Airsense 10 Elite does not do, causing the issues described in my initial post.
4)repeats of 2 and 3 many times per night.

I'm hoping that I'm interpreting the graphs correctly here, as I have no other explanation as to why the autoset machine doesn't wake me or make me feel like crap in the morning but the Elite machine does.

Any help would be appreciated.

I'll also be showing this screenshot to the sleep lab.

_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Temporary S9 Autoset from friend whilst hospital decide to replace Airsense 10 Elite with an Autoset. OSCAR beta software for monitoring.

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palerider
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by palerider » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:51 pm

Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
1)ramps for about 35 minutes to my auto sensed starting pressure of around 6 to 7, even though the machine is set for the full range of 4 to 20. I may even have been awake for up to an hour or so, just trying to relaxing.
The machine is set for 5-20,
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
2)reacts to my movement
It reacts to breathing anomalies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gie2dhqP2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GW97Xk06N8
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
(I assume the mask pressure is a little lower due to the constant leakage from the front holes in the mask?)
No, the venting is compensated for, pressure delivery at the mask is very accurate, if you have hose type and mask type set properly.
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
3)reacts to movement again and reduces the pressure significantly, on average over a few days worth of graphs to about 5 to 7, which is something the Airsense 10 Elite does not do, causing the issues described in my initial post.
The Elite is a fixed pressure machine, it does not react to your breathing issues.

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zoocrewphoto
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by zoocrewphoto » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:39 pm

It sure looks like it is doing well with a range, keeping the ahi low. And it clearly has spikes showing that you don't need the higher pressure all the time. I think most doctors who appreciate auto machines would see this is a perfect example of when to use one. If you don't manage toget it from the DME there, I would get my own auto machine and keep their machine as a backup.

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Resmed S9 autoset pressure range 11-17
Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

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Blazing_Black_Beard
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by Blazing_Black_Beard » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:09 pm


palerider wrote:
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
1)ramps for about 35 minutes to my auto sensed starting pressure of around 6 to 7, even though the machine is set for the full range of 4 to 20. I may even have been awake for up to an hour or so, just trying to relaxing.
The machine is set for 5-20,

Yes, I noticed this only after your reply here. The machine is set from 5 - 20 although this should not really make much difference or change what I'm trying to convey here. So with that said, I'm conveying that the autoset machine is set to a wide range but quickly gets to an appropriate pressure regardless of my sleeping posture.

palerider wrote:
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
2)reacts to my movement
It reacts to breathing anomalies.
Which is exactly what I meant by reacting to my movement. I move and change my sleeping posture, therefore my airways change, causing these breathing anomalies. No need for the YouTube videos but thanks anyway. I'm fully conversant with how different posture affects sleep apnoea.

palerider wrote:
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
(I assume the mask pressure is a little lower due to the constant leakage from the front holes in the mask?)
No, the venting is compensated for, pressure delivery at the mask is very accurate, if you have hose type and mask type set properly.



So please explain to me, why am I seeing a lower "Mask Pressure" trace that's corresponding to about -5 of the "Pressure Graph" in OSCAR?

palerider wrote:
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
3)reacts to movement again and reduces the pressure significantly, on average over a few days worth of graphs to about 5 to 7, which is something the Airsense 10 Elite does not do, causing the issues described in my initial post.
The Elite is a fixed pressure machine, it does not react to your breathing issues.
Which is essentially what I have said right from the beginning of this thread. I'm fully aware that the Elite is a CPAP only machine. I came here for productive, constructive help, not scrutiny of my grammar and how I express myself.

Thanks for trying to help though.



_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Temporary S9 Autoset from friend whilst hospital decide to replace Airsense 10 Elite with an Autoset. OSCAR beta software for monitoring.
Last edited by Blazing_Black_Beard on Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Blazing_Black_Beard
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by Blazing_Black_Beard » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:17 pm


zoocrewphoto wrote:It sure looks like it is doing well with a range, keeping the ahi low. And it clearly has spikes showing that you don't need the higher pressure all the time. I think most doctors who appreciate auto machines would see this is a perfect example of when to use one. If you don't manage toget it from the DME there, I would get my own auto machine and keep their machine as a backup.
I'm actually going to insist they change it. I've been looking at the graphs all afternoon before going to bed last night. It does seem to be a clear case of what they think they can get away with, but seeing as this is my health, I'm not going to let them palm thos CPAP only machine off on me.

Thank you for your confirmation of what I thought I was looking at ie the 7 to 16 range, the management of AHI in acceptable amounts and the spikes clearly showing there is a need for variable pressure in a fairly broad range.

Your encouragement is appreciated and welcome.

_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Temporary S9 Autoset from friend whilst hospital decide to replace Airsense 10 Elite with an Autoset. OSCAR beta software for monitoring.

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palerider
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by palerider » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:30 pm

Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:09 pm
palerider wrote:
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
(I assume the mask pressure is a little lower due to the constant leakage from the front holes in the mask?)
No, the venting is compensated for, pressure delivery at the mask is very accurate, if you have hose type and mask type set properly.

So please explain to me, why am I seeing a lower "Mask Pressure" trace that's corresponding to about -5 of the "Pressure Graph" in OSCAR?
Please provide example.

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Blazing_Black_Beard
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by Blazing_Black_Beard » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:34 pm

palerider wrote:
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:09 pm
palerider wrote:
Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm
(I assume the mask pressure is a little lower due to the constant leakage from the front holes in the mask?)
No, the venting is compensated for, pressure delivery at the mask is very accurate, if you have hose type and mask type set properly.

So please explain to me, why am I seeing a lower "Mask Pressure" trace that's corresponding to about -5 of the "Pressure Graph" in OSCAR?
Please provide example.
I already have. See the attached images in the only post where I have provided OSCAR screen shots. You'll clearly see there that the "mask pressure" and "pressure" closely if not identically resemble each other, yet the "mask pressure" is always constantly about 5 below the "pressure".

_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Temporary S9 Autoset from friend whilst hospital decide to replace Airsense 10 Elite with an Autoset. OSCAR beta software for monitoring.

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palerider
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by palerider » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:41 pm

Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:34 pm
I already have. See the attached images in the only post where I have provided OSCAR screen shots. You'll clearly see there that the "mask pressure" and "pressure" closely if not identically resemble each other, yet the "mask pressure" is always constantly about 5 below the "pressure".
No, they're not. You need to set the y axis scale the same on both graphs.

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Get OSCAR

Accounts to put on the foe list: dataq1, clownbell, gearchange, lynninnj, mper!?, DreamDiver, Geer1, almostadoctor, sleepgeek, ajack, stom, mogy, D.H., They often post misleading, timewasting stuff.

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Blazing_Black_Beard
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by Blazing_Black_Beard » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:57 pm

Set the Y axis scale so that the recorded pressures for each graph change? That doesn't make much sense.

Scaling of the graph should not affect what numbers were recorded and the numbers displayed at a particular time index when viewed at the cursor position.

Are you suggesting that scaling the graph will also alter the reported numbers at the cursor? That seems highly unlikely and effectively pointless and unneccesary. It also seems like an irregular way to 1) manipulate recorded data and 2)distort it so that it doesn't resemble the recorded data, making the graph and it's perceived numerical data meaningless.

Surely you mean one can scale the graph purely from an aesthetic point of view but it doesn't actually alter the reported samples at any particular index, it just shows them differently graphically?

_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Temporary S9 Autoset from friend whilst hospital decide to replace Airsense 10 Elite with an Autoset. OSCAR beta software for monitoring.

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zoocrewphoto
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by zoocrewphoto » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:29 pm

Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:17 pm
zoocrewphoto wrote:It sure looks like it is doing well with a range, keeping the ahi low. And it clearly has spikes showing that you don't need the higher pressure all the time. I think most doctors who appreciate auto machines would see this is a perfect example of when to use one. If you don't manage toget it from the DME there, I would get my own auto machine and keep their machine as a backup.
I'm actually going to insist they change it. I've been looking at the graphs all afternoon before going to bed last night. It does seem to be a clear case of what they think they can get away with, but seeing as this is my health, I'm not going to let them palm thos CPAP only machine off on me.

Thank you for your confirmation of what I thought I was looking at ie the 7 to 16 range, the management of AHI in acceptable amounts and the spikes clearly showing there is a need for variable pressure in a fairly broad range.

Your encouragement is appreciated and welcome.
Make sure you take several printouts to show that this is typical for you and what you need. I would also look for websites that explain this that would be written by experts, so that you can use that as evidence too.

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Resmed S9 autoset pressure range 11-17
Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by zoocrewphoto » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:34 pm

If you lookat the graphs for Friday,July 19th, the two graphs for pressure and mask pressure are basically identical, showing the presure and EPR pressure.

Take a look at the top peaks on each graph. The regulat pressure line shows the peaks at the top of the graph, just below the 13. On the mask pressure graph, the scale goes up to 18. If you lookat those same peaks, they are just above the hash mark for 12, so they are just under 13. Most people just delete the mask pressure graph since it is just a duplicate of the pressure graph.

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Resmed S9 autoset pressure range 11-17
Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

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palerider
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Re: UK and NHS...New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by palerider » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:38 pm

Blazing_Black_Beard wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:57 pm
Set the Y axis scale so that the recorded pressures for each graph change? That doesn't make much sense.

Scaling of the graph should not affect what numbers were recorded and the numbers displayed at a particular time index when viewed at the cursor position.

Are you suggesting that scaling the graph will also alter the reported numbers at the cursor? That seems highly unlikely and effectively pointless and unneccesary. It also seems like an irregular way to 1) manipulate recorded data and 2)distort it so that it doesn't resemble the recorded data, making the graph and it's perceived numerical data meaningless.

Surely you mean one can scale the graph purely from an aesthetic point of view but it doesn't actually alter the reported samples at any particular index, it just shows them differently graphically?
If you change the x axis to be 4-20 on both pressure and mask pressure, and then you put the charts next to each other, you'll find that there is *NOT* a 5cm pressure difference.

"pressure" is the targeted pressure for the machine to maintain, "mask pressure" is the actual *measured* pressure *at the machine air exit*, which compensates for the flow restriction of the humidifier, hose type and mask. The actual pressure measured pressure may be several cmh2o higher than what they are at the mask.

I have measured pressure at the exit of my machine and the mask with a differential manometer. I've seen upwards of 27cm pressure when the pressure at my mask was actually the 18cm pressure that was scheduled.

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Re:UK & NHS... New clinic, new machine troubles.

Post by SDBud » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:33 am

Pugsy wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:20 am
Is insurance paying for your machine or are you self pay or maybe have a really high deductible?
He CLEARLY SAID UK, and NHS (National Health Service).

You know that Socialized Medicine that Conservatives rail on and on and on about
...

.
Airsense 10 Autoset
AirTouch and AirFit F10 masks
:roll: